theoldwizard1
Well-known member
So what is your recourse ?
Portable or Whole House Generator
- Thread starter Matt M PA
- Start date
So what is your recourse ?
theoldwizard1
Well-known member
"You can't fix stupid !"
Use of a portable generator with a properly installed inlet and properly installed generator interlock is about as fool proof as you can get.
aunsafe2015
Well-known member
Anybody know if one of the automatic standby style generators can be manually hooked up using a plug and an interlock kit? Or do they require automatic transfer switches?
I like the idea of the interlock but I don't see a big selection of 8Kw or larger portable style NG generators.
I lose power like once per year so spending $10k on automatic standby + installation isn't so appealing, but it looks like the standby style generators themselves can be purchased for like $2500. To save several thousand dollars I wouldn't mind spending 10 minutes manually starting it up the once per year I lose power... (And I suppose a handful of other times for workout/maintenance).
I like the idea of the interlock but I don't see a big selection of 8Kw or larger portable style NG generators.
I lose power like once per year so spending $10k on automatic standby + installation isn't so appealing, but it looks like the standby style generators themselves can be purchased for like $2500. To save several thousand dollars I wouldn't mind spending 10 minutes manually starting it up the once per year I lose power... (And I suppose a handful of other times for workout/maintenance).
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theoldwizard1
Well-known member
IMHO, your first 2 statements are the primary reasons why a PORTABLE generator would be a good fit for you !
As for storage, build a weatherproof "dog house" on a concrete pad where you can store and RUN the generator. You can buy portable generators that run natural gas or propane so storing gasoline is NOT an issue.
That is a very good analogy. I realize a lot of the members here favor just getting a smaller portable generator and I get where they are coming from. But I tend to think that when the power goes out and your new home generator automatically starts up and everything in the house starts working again, you will be thankful you made the investment.
That's where my thoughts are. I'm all for doing things the less costly way, and am fortunate to be able to take care of most things myself. I'm not rolling in money. (In fact, the only household chores we pay someone to do are the grass cutting and leaf clean up in the fall. Some folks may enjoy doing those....but I hate it and don't do a good job.)
I know some folks would enjoy the set-up, maintenance, etc of a portable...but this is something that I'd rather have be easy. I'm still gathering info locally too...but am leaning towards the whole house.
I do understand that I can get a "dog-gloo" or similar for a portable. We have to put a generator on the side of the house as we have a full width porch on the back. Our township has rules about how a generator may be housed...so this will raise the cost of cause us to mount it quite a distance from the house.
I'm concerned that when the power does go out...I'll be annoyed that I didn't do the whole house.
mrobins297aaa
Well-known member
none you don't have any, best to ask the inspector ahead of time as to what he wants to see and deal with it.
you know the old saying "forgiveness is easier than permission".....not with these guys.
besides asking ahead of time show some respect and your more likely to get your way.
James-W
Well-known member
The power around here rarely goes out, (I can't even recall the last time it went out) so at the present time I have no intention of buying a generator in order to have power in case of a power outage.
However, that being said, if I were in the market to buy a generator it would be an automatic whole home system so I could run everything and not just a few items. My wife isn't in the best of health and if the power went on the hottest day of the year, we would certainly want to be able to run the central air-conditioning.
For a lot of people a portable generator that needs to be maintained and set up in order to use it in the house, is a very good idea. For someone like myself who is older and can't get around as well as he once did, having an automatic system is desirable.
That is a very good analogy. I realize a lot of the members here favor just getting a smaller portable generator and I get where they are coming from. But I tend to think that when the power goes out and your new home generator automatically starts up and everything in the house starts working again, you will be thankful you made the investment.
it sure is nice.
A nice picky town with a historic district in SJ -- and an even more difficult one north of New Hope in PA.
Except -- you can still overload the generator. I can only assume that this has occurred more frequently.
I got the "what if someone was running a generator and then went to work .. and the generator overloaded" This now leaves the house with someone "not qualified" .
Never pressed either location to do this .. I had no intention of doing a manual setup. Went in looking for basic information and during the questioning he discussed how they approve the manual setups. Having the knowledge -- asked about the manual setups while discussing in my other. My guess is neither town has manual as common .. nor are the towns concerned about what it costs homeowners to comply.
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SkeetShooter
Member
My vote is the portable Generator with the interlock kit. I have propane at my house and we lost power for 4 days. I just hooked it up and have a dual fuel 8000w generator, and it works great. I just pull it out grab the cord and the propane supply hose hook it up and I'm off to the races. I only run it when I'm home usually. And i only have certain breakers isolated to use. But it runs anything I need when I want it. Only had to use it 3 times and loaned it out a few times to friends.
I have the same unit and it's worked well for us during outages. I'd like to do the transfer switch one of these years...
ddurrett896
Well-known member
I vote against the whole home. They are great if you frequently lose power, not at the house (vacation type home) or physically unable to hookup a generator when the power goes out.
I'm like you and just lost power for the 1st time in 6 years for a day and a half. BJs has a Champion 7500/9375 generator that's normally $700 for $600 this Black Friday.
Add a few VP fuel containers ($25 each on eBay) and for under $1,000 you are set.
This will take care of my fridges, hot water heater and lights.
got2boostit2
Well-known member
This is the reason I'm looking at one, have a dead mans switch and receptacle to hook up generator to run certain circuits. However with home care people here at times I cannot afford to have outages when I'm not here or close. Ergo, whole house generator will be coming in the new year.
theoldwizard1
Well-known member
How do you overload a generator when there is a circuit breaker ON ThE GENERATOR ![/QUOTE]
theoldwizard1
Well-known member
I got a 5000W generator "just in case" for Y2K. Less than 2 months ago, the power went out for the first time since I bought it that I actually had time to pull it out of the garage and hook it up. It ran for less than 1 hour.
theoldwizard1
Well-known member
[/QUOTE]
I guess it occurs -- and there is also the cord.
It's like a plane crash .. there is never one thing that causes a disaster.
People do stupid things --
theoldwizard1
Well-known member
What about the cord ? Portable cordage is always OVERSIZED by gauge !!
There are literally hundreds of thousands of RVs with 120V@30A or 240V@50A systems that rely on portable cordage.
b-boy
Well-known member
Whenever we had an outage, gas became very hard to get. In 2006 we had a huge blizzard/ice storm in early October. We were down for over a week, and gas stations were too.
I usually store about 20 gallons of gas over the winter, but I hadn't done it yet, because I was still raking leaves. As a result, getting gas to run the generators was really difficult for a few days. Luckily our neighbors were pretty good. Everyone made trips to get gas, so we got by. I only ran the generator for an hour or 2 during the day, and all night.
After that I converted my generator to run on gas and NG. That was a Godsend. No more worrying about gas cans.
I usually store about 20 gallons of gas over the winter, but I hadn't done it yet, because I was still raking leaves. As a result, getting gas to run the generators was really difficult for a few days. Luckily our neighbors were pretty good. Everyone made trips to get gas, so we got by. I only ran the generator for an hour or 2 during the day, and all night.
After that I converted my generator to run on gas and NG. That was a Godsend. No more worrying about gas cans.
theoldwizard1
Well-known member
Yep, very typical ! Either buy a smaller, more fuel efficient generator and/or only run it a few hours a day.
OR
Do what you did, and buy a conversion kit so that i can run on NG !!
JerryC
Well-known member
I have 4200w HF portable generator. I run extension cords to the house from our shed. I work from home so having power during even short outages is important. I can run my furnaces, fridges and pc and some lights. I can't run the home AC, but I can run a couple of window units. The plus side of this is that my generator solution was cheap and it works.
The bummer is that our outages are almost always weather related meaning that I have to gear up to go out in a storm and pull extension cords around in the rain or worse.
I keep it full of stabilized gas and run it for 10 minutes or so every other time I cut the grass and every winter month. I cycle stabilized gas in several cans throughout the year to ensure I have enough on hand.
If I had the money I'd get a whole house generator. Saving thousands of dollars sounds like a good idea in good weather. Spending thousands of dollars on a whole house generator sounds like GREAT idea when you are pulling cords around, fueling and starting a portable generator in the freezing rain.
The bummer is that our outages are almost always weather related meaning that I have to gear up to go out in a storm and pull extension cords around in the rain or worse.
I keep it full of stabilized gas and run it for 10 minutes or so every other time I cut the grass and every winter month. I cycle stabilized gas in several cans throughout the year to ensure I have enough on hand.
If I had the money I'd get a whole house generator. Saving thousands of dollars sounds like a good idea in good weather. Spending thousands of dollars on a whole house generator sounds like GREAT idea when you are pulling cords around, fueling and starting a portable generator in the freezing rain.
Radix2
Well-known member
I have 4200w HF portable generator. I run extension cords to the house from our shed. I work from home so having power during even short outages is important. I can run my furnaces, fridges and pc and some lights. I can't run the home AC, but I can run a couple of window units. The plus side of this is that my generator solution was cheap and it works.
The bummer is that our outages are almost always weather related meaning that I have to gear up to go out in a storm and pull extension cords around in the rain or worse.
I keep it full of stabilized gas and run it for 10 minutes or so every other time I cut the grass and every winter month. I cycle stabilized gas in several cans throughout the year to ensure I have enough on hand.
If I had the money I'd get a whole house generator. Saving thousands of dollars sounds like a good idea in good weather. Spending thousands of dollars on a whole house generator sounds like GREAT idea when you are pulling cords around, fueling and starting a portable generator in the freezing rain.
Consider installing an interlock/inlet. One cord, one plug. Flip some breakers. If you can do it yourself, minor cost.
JerryC
Well-known member
I have considered it, I don't think I'm to the job. I'll replace wall outlets and fixtures but I look at reordering breakers and I think a pro should do it. Due to the way the house is laid out and where my shed is it would be about a third of whole house generator install cost. I'd still have the fueling and starting in bad weather. It would be better than what I have now, but then I would want to up the generator size (more cost and using more fuel) and you see where that is going. So I'm sticking with this and hanging on until I can afford a whole house generator.
I think you are missing the issues .. and why some authorities are making rules to insure these things are more fool proof.
I'm fully capable of adding the interlock and managing the load -- but, no one else in the family is. There seems to be some dispute about the interlock itself -- since you are modifying the panel ... but, assuming I could get it through, I still have a "hook up situation" .. and the worry about having to be at the house should something happen. There is always the issue of filling a hot generator with fuel when it's running low.
I can see a portable as a last resort -- where it's infrequent, but you must have something so disaster does not occur if the power is down for a couple days in the winter. We can do a portable and get it through -- small load center/ manual transfer w/ matching amp input outlet outside. That's what they want.
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JerryC
Well-known member
LOL, I called mine the good luck charm because for the first three years I owned it we did not have an outage. Since then we have had at least two outages per year that I needed the generator. There have been several times that my UPS carried me through short outages by keeping my internet and computer running. When the UPS is about to run dry is when I start getting the generator ready.
Somebody mentioned others in the house not be able to set up the portable. I spent a few hours taking pictures and labeling connections/cords and I created a two page laminated instruction sheet with color photos for the wife. She glanced at it and said something like "I'll go to a hotel and you can fix the frozen pipes later".
adding: A couple of years ago I learned that my utility company has a web page for outages and projected resolution times. That helps a lot in deciding whether or the portable gets put into action.
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theoldwizard1
Well-known member
Before you give up, turn your main off and pull the front cover off of your breaker box. Assuming it is FULL (no empty slots), rearranging (NOT reordering) the top w slot is pretty easy. But 2 tandem breakers (15A or 20A as appropriate) and a 2-pole (240V) breaker appropriate for your generator. With the main off, (assuming you have no 2-pole 240V breakers near the top) remove the top 4 black wires and their associated breakers. Install the new generator interlock breaker at the top (check instruction, some require that it is on the left, some on the right). Install the 2 tandem breakers and black wires (sometimes I find it easier to screw the wire down to the breaker before installing the breaker into the panel).
The rest is just running the wire from the inlet box to the new 2-pole 240V breaker and the interlock kit on the front cover. Typical portable generator would have a 30A breaker so you can use 10/3 NM-B/Romex from the inlet to the breaker box, no conduit required.. All of the parts should cost less than $300 !
I have a 5500 w generator, I put a small breaker box on the exterior of the house, ran some wires thru chases to where I wanted and added receptacles where I need them. Put one next to each fridge and a couple in the living room and one for the well pump.
If power goes out I just fire up the generator, swap receptacles, and flip on the breakers. Its a hell of a lot cheaper then whole house generators.
If power goes out I just fire up the generator, swap receptacles, and flip on the breakers. Its a hell of a lot cheaper then whole house generators.
6768rogues
Banned
I use a portable generator because our electricity tends to be pretty reliable. Maybe once every year or two it goes out long enough to drag out the generator.
JerryC
Well-known member
The panel is full and i would have to move the top breakers and circuits to another panel and run new wire into panel. Then trenching and running 200' of wire to where the generator is now. The panel is not in the worst possible location for this, but it isn't far from it.
And after all of that the wife would still say "nope, ain't doing it"
At this point she isn't capable of pull starting the generator (bad shoulders) so that would mean a new portable with electric start and $$$ keep adding up.
This has been a very helpful discussion...thank you!
We're still on the fence with our whole house vs portable. I know my wife won't want/isn't capable of setting up a portable. She'd just sit in the cold.
Part of my problem with a portable isn't so much the set-up or deciding what equipment should be powered....but the storage of the gasoline/propane and the generator. I can't put anything that size in my attached garage...and storing in the shed would mean dragging it quite a distance when it''s needed....
This thread has really proven to be very helpful
We're still on the fence with our whole house vs portable. I know my wife won't want/isn't capable of setting up a portable. She'd just sit in the cold.
Part of my problem with a portable isn't so much the set-up or deciding what equipment should be powered....but the storage of the gasoline/propane and the generator. I can't put anything that size in my attached garage...and storing in the shed would mean dragging it quite a distance when it''s needed....
This thread has really proven to be very helpful
larry4406
Well-known member
In my case, I already have a portable (Generac 7500EXL), but I want to make it easier and more convenient for use. To that end, I am thinking of a generator shed to house it external to the home, complete with power inlet, house power for trickle charge on the battery for electric start, and most likely an interlock kit on the panel cover vs a separate transfer switch with isolated panel. Then use the colored round stickers that some have shown to clearly label the critical breakers and number them in order of enabling.
Matt: I have enough problems keeping the snow blower fresh !
I saw my nephews new setup over thanksgiving -- he had an ideal place for a 13k unit using NG. He would have needed a very large unit to do the whole house and the install would have been expensive -- he now has a unit that keeps the heaters running and will allow all the essential stuff to keep going except AC and a second double oven. My other nephew is still trying to figure out what way to go -- he has a smaller house and uses propane. They are both on the Philly main line .. many companies in PA doing these. Get some real world prices
Pruittx2
Well-known member
I have a 25 yr old Genrac 4500 watt unit. It runs everything I need at once. Furnace, or ac. house computer stuff, fridge, ect. I do have mostly propane items, So no real heavy elc loads Ac being the biggest. I am Very fortunate that my local Elc co-op is Very efficient. my longest outage in 15 years was 15 hr, after that it was a 4 hr pre-planned outage. That was during the day, when I was home. I was able to back feed the unit from my pole barns Air compressor plug back thru the house. Both have 100 amp services. I took this opportunity to test what all items I could run, and was more that happy with it's performance. Both my folks have genrac whole house units, they are also happy with, but they are a bit older, and don't want to have to fuss with it.
The quote I have is for a Generac 22,000 unit. I was quoted $8500, all in. PECO would need to update the gas meter, which is at no cost from PECO.
I've been hesitant to have anyone else come out for a quote, because if it's close...I feel an obligation to do business with the firm that quoted me as it's my next door neighbor. Some friends..and folks on this site...have offered referrals and I'm thankful.
Local friends that have had these installed seem to think that the quote I have is very good compared to what they paid. When I've enquirer to other recommended firms, these films cannot give any kind of an idea of cost without coming out. I don't want to waste their time for the reason mentioned above. I get it...they don't want to be held to a potentially inaccurate quote. (I really think that our install would simple...both the gas line and electric are on the same side of the house....)
I've been hesitant to have anyone else come out for a quote, because if it's close...I feel an obligation to do business with the firm that quoted me as it's my next door neighbor. Some friends..and folks on this site...have offered referrals and I'm thankful.
Local friends that have had these installed seem to think that the quote I have is very good compared to what they paid. When I've enquirer to other recommended firms, these films cannot give any kind of an idea of cost without coming out. I don't want to waste their time for the reason mentioned above. I get it...they don't want to be held to a potentially inaccurate quote. (I really think that our install would simple...both the gas line and electric are on the same side of the house....)
As i said before -- that's a great price. price the unit online with the required parts and you are at 5k easy .... getting it properly installed to code for 3500 is very good. I went with a different unit -- but had I been using NG and for your intended use .. at that price. I would being going with your neighbor.
theoldwizard1
Well-known member
And after all of that the wife would still say "nope, ain't doing it"
"if Momma ain't happy, ain't nobody happy !"
It has not been a priority yet. The difference in cost between a whole house system and a portable is huge. If A/C or a heat pump or health issues are not absolute necessities, IMHO, the whole system is just not worth the cost.
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theoldwizard1
Well-known member
For a couple of hours, sure. Overnight ? Highly doubtful.
Modern portable generator, that are properly maintained, start on the first or second pull, EVERY TIME ! The pull does not have to be hard and fast. Slow and steady for most of the cord. My sister is over 70. She can start hers.
Always an issue. The simple thing is do nothing. If the power is out go to a relative/friends house.
The others can be worked out, if it is a priority. Long cords (100' of 10/4 is about $150, plus end). Buried propane tanks.
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Sight unseen that it a good price. Usually location/distances just run up the cost from there.
I doubt you are getting a poured pad, xfer switch located inside or cost of permits covered in that price.
I suggest go for a 3' x 5' poured pad as it will keep the unit flat and level and adds 6" distance all around the unit for generator's protection. Pea gravel under gens directly or even under a precast slab tend to migrate with vibration and eventually cause settling. You can do the slab yourself if needed. Discuss this with your friend.
Make sure gas, electric and fire permits are pulled and licensed sparky does at least the connections.
Depending upon age of existing service, you may need to add 1-2 grd rods connected to the xfer switch. Otherwise existing connection to them will just move from main panel (soon to become a sub panel) to xfer switch.
Thanks all...here's what I understand from the quote on the install.
4" level concrete pad. They will set up the drawings, etc as required to get the permits. Permits to the township are another $225. 1 year maintenance included.
22,000 generator. Automatic transfer switch mounted near electrical panel inside the home.
Further, they have offered 0% for 1 year.
I went to the TWP office to get the forms and info.
4" level concrete pad. They will set up the drawings, etc as required to get the permits. Permits to the township are another $225. 1 year maintenance included.
22,000 generator. Automatic transfer switch mounted near electrical panel inside the home.
Further, they have offered 0% for 1 year.
I went to the TWP office to get the forms and info.