Post hole depth and spacing?

[Marctrees]

Cuda - Are you aware there are quite a few builders that do ONLY post frame buildings that would serve your are?

The thing is , they do it for VERY reasonable prices that may surprise you... turnkey matl and labor.

Below is a link to two companies, both well reputed, but especially the first one.

Just sayin..... Marc

https://rob-bilt.com/pole-barn-prices/

http://fivestarrbuilders.com/pricing-guide/

 

[Cuda416]

Cuda - Are you aware there are quite a few builders that do ONLY post frame buildings that would serve your are?

I am now, thanks. I'll take a look.

 

[ard]

When we built a large deck, we poured the concrete around large bolts with metal plates nutted on the bottom and the threads sticking up. Put a nut and tape over the top threads to stop from concreting them.

Then after it cured we bolted the metal post holders to the bolts. If the posts rot we just replace them. Sold the place 20 years later and posts still fine, in wet humid Maryland.

Posts never touched dirt. All wood that touches dirt will wick moisture and rot, whether it's pressure treated posts or T-111.

Sent from my Moto G (5) Plus using Tapatalk

Whole heartedly agree, for many of my structures. HOWEVER, there are unique loads at the base of a pole in a pole barn. On a deck, you are controlling shear, side load, etc, by tying it to a building, bulding low to the ground OR diagnonal braces. Also a deck doesn't present hundreds or thousands of square feet to the wind to act as a sail.

A pole in a pole barn is resisting bending over in all ways along with just carrying weight. They are not diagonally braced along the wall, or rarely. And they are never diagnonally braced across the building. Concrete/steel solutions at a post base for this application are far different. (Why do I think lakeroadster posted about this??)

Anyway, just a comment

 

[ard]

Oh. Picture a long wall of a pole barn. Say 6 posts, 8 ft on center. So 40 ft long.

Say that wall is 12ft tall, about 500 sqft.

Now picture a 60 MPH wind on that 500 sq ft.

Now think about how deep those posts ought to be to prevent the wall from getting laid down...2ft? (Like someone told the OP is fine)

 

[lakeroadster]

They are not diagonally braced along the wall, or rarely. And they are never diagnonally braced across the building. Concrete/steel solutions at a post base for this application are far different. (Why do I think lakeroadster posted about this??)

Anyway, just a comment

They aren't diagonally braced.... because the steel sheathing performs that function. And it does it quite well.

 

[ard]

They aren't diagonally braced.... because the steel sheathing performs that function. And it does it quite well.

Huh? What steel sheathing?

So let me get this straight...a post beam structure will be fine on a standard Post Base Anchor, like a Simpson PB88? So no embedded depth, just whack that post off and bolt it to this:

(This was what the poster above was suggesting, as he had used this for decks- that was what I was responding to.)


Also, explain how you resist loading that isn't in the plane of the wall...ie a load that is perpendicular to the wall. When you don't embed the post.

 

[ard]

FWIW- you had posted pictures about a gazebo, or open pavilion that collapsed .... Big roof, posts down to spindly anchors. I thought.

 

[lakeroadster]

Huh? What steel sheathing?

The steel sheathing on the outside of most pole barns..... You stated..

A pole in a pole barn is resisting bending over in all ways along with just carrying weight. They are not diagonally braced along the wall, or rarely. And they are never diagnonally braced across the building. Concrete/steel solutions at a post base for this application are far different. (Why do I think lakeroadster posted about this??)...

So since you wrote:

A pole in a pole barn is resisting bending over in all ways along with just carrying weight. They are not diagonally braced along the wall, or rarely. And they are never diagnonally braced across the building.

I replied...

They aren't diagonally braced.... because the steel sheathing performs that function. And it does it quite well.

To address why there aren't diagonal braces... on a steel sheathed pole barn.

FWIW- you had posted pictures about a gazebo, or open pavilion that collapsed .... Big roof, posts down to spindly anchors. I thought.

I did indeed... that is here: https://www.garagejournal.com/forum/showthread.php?t=353084

This building failed because it had no diagonal bracing... If it had been built with beefy supports at the post to roof junction the anchors that were used would have been fine.

Alternatively, if the posts had been sunk into the soil 4ft, even with the flimsy diagonal bracing, it probably would have been fine also.

Sorry for the confusion ARD... it think we are in agreement here.

 

[lakeroadster]

When we built a large deck, we poured the concrete around large bolts with metal plates nutted on the bottom and the threads sticking up. Put a nut and tape over the top threads to stop from concreting them.

Then after it cured we bolted the metal post holders to the bolts. If the posts rot we just replace them. Sold the place 20 years later and posts still fine, in wet humid Maryland.

Posts never touched dirt. All wood that touches dirt will wick moisture and rot, whether it's pressure treated posts or T-111.

That's great.

Question: Did you build your deck structure and deck boards out of steel and concrete too? Point being... almost all wood that gets wet will wick moisture and rot.

For most folks it's a matter of risk vs reward at a given price.

Another Question: Did you get paid any extra when you sold the place 20 years later? If the answer is no you spent way too much money, when simple ground contact rated PT wood posts would have sufficed.

Point being if you select the correct treated wood for the actual specific application and location, it will last longer than you will ever need. If you don't select the correct wood... don't blame it's poor performance on your lack of expertise.

https://www.fpl.fs.fed.us/documnts/pdf2013/fpl_2013_lebow001.pdf

 

[Cuda416]

Alright you two, don't make me stop this car!

Just messing around guys, a little brevity goes a long way sometimes.

I wanted to point out I appreciate everyone's input on the subject matter of this thread. Even though the question was about post hole depth an spacing, and not related to or asking for alternative methods of construction, such as raised piers, I appreciate the information. I'll probably do something like that when I build the deck around my future above ground pool in a year or two but for the pole barn, I'm going to have poles, in holes.

Have an awesome day....or else..

 

[Cuda416]

Whoops, double post...

 

[Marctrees]

Poles in Holes?

I think I recall a movie of that name yearsss ago. Marc

 

[Cuda416]

Poles in Holes?

I think I recall a movie of that name yearsss ago. Marc

Ya had to go there huh? Lol... smh...

 

[Marctrees]

You saw it also???

Here's a memorable still clip - Marc

https://s-media-cache-ak0.pinimg.com/originals/1c/e7/f4/1ce7f40546b9730824b3b270c485105a.jpg

 

[Cuda416]

A friend of mine suggested getting in contact with national Barn Company. While they have a really good price for TurnKey situation in my mind, i I'm a little concerned by the fact that the building they expect has 5 in posts spaced 12 ft on Center. Is that a valid concern? It seems a little light to me for a 36 by 48 by 14 building.

Sent from my SM-G920T using Tapatalk

 

[lakeroadster]

A friend of mine suggested getting in contact with national Barn Company. While they have a really good price for TurnKey situation in my mind, i I'm a little concerned by the fact that the building they expect has 5 in posts spaced 12 ft on Center. Is that a valid concern? It seems a little light to me for a 36 by 48 by 14 building.

Sent from my SM-G920T using Tapatalk

My barn has 3 and 4 ply laminated 2x6 posts... it's good for 116 mph. Spacing varies, some are spaced 13', some are spaced about 2'.

Although none of that matters much, there's much more to the design than the post size and the spacing.

Is their design stamped by a Professional Engineer?

 

[Cuda416]

My barn has 3 and 4 ply laminated 2x6 posts... it's good for 116 mph. Spacing varies, some are spaced 13', some are spaced about 2'.

Although none of that matters much, there's much more to the design than the post size and the spacing.

Is their design stamped by a Professional Engineer?

I don't know if they are stamped yet, but I've asked.

Sent from my SM-G920T using Tapatalk

 

[buddyboy]

let these companies know what your future plans for the building will be.

for example, if you are going to put up a ceiling.

you may only get a 'bare bones' design that only accounts for tin walls and tin roof.

when you start hanging osb/plywood/drywall that could change size/spacing of your posts and roof trusses

 

[Cuda416]

let these companies know what your future plans for the building will be.

for example, if you are going to put up a ceiling.

you may only get a 'bare bones' design that only accounts for tin walls and tin roof.

when you start hanging osb/plywood/drywall that could change size/spacing of your posts and roof trusses

Good point, I'll do that, thanks.

 

[Marctrees]

Cuda - Please input your location. Marc

 

[Cuda416]

Cuda - Please input your location. Marc

Done

Sent from my SM-G920T using Tapatalk

 

[Marctrees]

Thank you.. I did since notice you had it in the first post, so you are not all bad. Marc

 

[Cuda416]

Thank you.. I did since notice you had it in the first post, so you are not all bad. Marc

I saw your posts from earlier in the year trying to find a builder.

Did you ever find one?
How did it work out for you?
Who did you get to do concrete?
Happy with the results?

 

[Marctrees]

I have dragged my feet, kinda health issues, nothing serious, just distracting.. but we do plan on being mostly done by end of year.

Have not signed yet.....soon.

I am planning on going w 5 Starr, if not, Rob Bilt.

Only reason 5 Starr first choice is they handle the concrete in house.

5 Starr includes in their price sheet a floor w rebar actually on real live official chairs, and poly.

Their own crew, I've talked to the Foreman.

Obviously I don't know till it's all said and done, but I have searched all I could, and feel confident in both.

5Starr a handful of years ago had some troubles w not finishing in a timely manner... but they do seem to have gotten over that.

So, after you looked at their prices, that of course do not include "extras", what do YOU think for your project ? Marc

 

[Cuda416]

So, after you looked at their prices, that of course do not include "extras", what do YOU think for your project ? Marc

I have not seen the prices from 5-star yet.

I've gotten similar prices from National Barn and rob-bilt so far. I don't like some of the design choices they seem to make though. I may be a paranoid, but rob-bilt says they nail the header boards to the tops of the posts and hurricane strap them down. Bolts are extra...

Hansen, albeit a kit, seems to follow a lot of "best practice" like placing the top header boards on notched posts, bookshelf girts and purlins etc. On a 36x48 building, I'd rather not take any chances.

I am also waiting on a kit price from 84-lumber as well. Should have that next week.

My biggest obstacle is finding someone to dig the holes and do the grading, then concrete after the thing is built. I have a guy coming to take a look at the lot to see what he can do.

I was going to go rent an 18" auger from HD and do them myself, but the Hansen folks tell me 24" is required to meet code. Funny how everyone seems to think "code" doesn't exist.. until it does.. oh well, I could always auger them 18, then open them up. More work but would save me several hundred bucks. The guy tomorrow plans on using a mini excavator to dig the holes. Not sure how that will work out but we'll see.

 

[lakeroadster]

The guy tomorrow plans on using a mini excavator to dig the holes. Not sure how that will work out but we'll see.

How that works is one helluva lot more dirt due to huge holes that will then require significant effort to properly compact the dirt when the holes are back filled.

You want the holes augerred in unless the soil is to rocky to do so.

The Hansen guy is right about the 24" and a bobcat with a 24" auger should work fine, again, unless you have very rocky soil.

What diameter are the concrete pucks that go in the bottom of the hole?

 

[Cuda416]

How that works is one helluva lot more dirt due to huge holes that will then require significant effort to properly compact the dirt when the holes are back filled.

You want the holes augerred in unless the soil is to rocky to do so.

The Hansen guy is right about the 24" and a bobcat with a 24" auger should work fine, again, unless you have very rocky soil.

What diameter are the concrete pucks that go in the bottom of the hole?

Hansen doesn't use pucks. You suspend the post with a 2x4 set across the top so the post is off the bottom. Then you fill the concrete down around the bottom i believe

Sent from my SM-G920T using Tapatalk

 

[Marctrees]

5 Starr published common sizes price list - includes concrete - Marc

http://fivestarrbuilders.com/pricing-guide/

 

[lakeroadster]

Hansen doesn't use pucks. You suspend the post with a 2x4 set across the top so the post is off the bottom. Then you fill the concrete down around the bottom i believe

Sent from my SM-G920T using Tapatalk

Pouring in concrete after the post is there surrounds the post with concrete, which makes a water well for the post to sit in. Bad approach.

And if they say to use dry concrete mix... that's also a half assed approach.

Pucks or commercial mix plant concrete poured before the post is installed is a better approach.

 

[Cuda416]

5 Starr published common sizes price list - includes concrete - Marc

http://fivestarrbuilders.com/pricing-guide/

Yeah I know. Doesn't show me what a 14 foot version costs or overhangs or two doors on one end etc etc etc. So, I'm still waiting on a response from them.

Sent from my SM-G920T using Tapatalk

 

[Cuda416]

Pouring in concrete after the post is there surrounds the post with concrete, which makes a water well for the post to sit in. Bad approach.

And if they say to use dry concrete mix... that's also a half assed approach.

Pucks or commercial mix plant concrete poured before the post is installed is a better approach.

I don't disagree and will pose the question but its all engineered that way. My guess is they'll say its part of the anti lift measures. I'll let you know what they say.

Sent from my SM-G920T using Tapatalk

 

[Cuda416]

The response as promised...

"The building will cover the post so water would not run down the post even if
there was shrinkage."

 

[Lelandwelds]

I vote drill the hole. Insert embed and rebar in your concrete. Weld 12" long large angle end on to embed and through bolt to a plate welded opposite one of the legs. If you gethot galvanized it will last forever.

Or, cement a large bolt and attach a DIY Heavy versioN of Simpson post brackets. You will need to drill hole on the column ends..

If some future ***** backs into a post, it is an easier repair. We used to space 12 ft so if you enclose it or decide to move a door it's easier.

Are you in caliche or black dirt?

 

[Lelandwelds]

Hey! This armchair keyboard stuff is EASY!!

 

[SALIV8]

The response as promised...

"The building will cover the post so water would not run down the post even if
there was shrinkage."

Hmmm. This seems like an odd response, especially from a company. The posts are 3" from the outside of the building. If there is a long or heavy rain, even with an overhang and gutters, the ground will be saturated at some point, thus allowing moisture/water to contact the posts BELOW the building. This moisture will then be trapped.

 

[lakeroadster]

The response as promised...

"The building will cover the post so water would not run down the post even if
there was shrinkage."

Is that from the dealer rep, the actual company, or?

 

[Cuda416]

Hmmm. This seems like an odd response, especially from a company. The posts are 3" from the outside of the building. If there is a long or heavy rain, even with an overhang and gutters, the ground will be saturated at some point, thus allowing moisture/water to contact the posts BELOW the building. This moisture will then be trapped.

Is that from the dealer rep, the actual company, or?

Yeah, that's from the company rep, the person I've been talking to about the design. On one hand, he's right, the water would NOT be running down the pole and into the "cracks", on the other hand, and I pointed it out to him, the ground itself will be wet and that moisture could collect.

That all said, i don't think they say to fill the post hole, rather it's only the bottom portion in order to basically make a "super puck" as I'll call it, so as long as the hole is packed nice and tight above, and the grade is done well so water drains away, then there is only going to be a small chance of significant seepage. The concrete slab will be covering most of it, leaving only a small portion of topsoil area to "worry" about.

Being on the west side of San Antonio, albeit newly transplanted, think I am correct in saying it doesn't rain much around here anyway.

That all said, I'm from MN, where we waterproof foundations with spray on coatings before the foundation perimeters are back-filled and in MN you cannot get away from water, it's everywhere. It's a spray on product that looks like tar. I have always been sort of surprised that it's not done to the poles before they are planted. It would "move" with the wood and I would think, prevent ANY water contact at all.

 

[Marctrees]

Small world, I'm from MN also... S Mpls, west suburbs, Lk Minnetonka (poor end) and Iron Range few years.

Opinions on tarring- Marc

https://www.google.com/search?q=tar...ome..69i57.11736j0j1&sourceid=chrome&ie=UTF-8

 

[lakeroadster]

If the posts are treated to the correct specification it likely won't matter.

But like everything else in life there is a bad / good / better / best practice, and what he is suggesting is sub par.

What level CCA treated posts are they supplying?



And painting something on the posts... could void your warranty. It could actually hold moisture in the post.

 

[Cuda416]

Small world, I'm from MN also... S Mpls, west suburbs, Lk Minnetonka (poor end) and Iron Range few years.

Opinions on tarring- Marc

https://www.google.com/search?q=tar...ome..69i57.11736j0j1&sourceid=chrome&ie=UTF-8

Yeah small indeed. I understood just how small when I heard a guy from high school call my name from across the street once, in OKINAWA... I'll take a look at these later, thanks.

If the posts are treated to the correct specification it likely won't matter.

But like everything else in life there is a bad / good / better / best practice, and what he is suggesting is sub par.

What level CCA treated posts are they supplying?



And painting something on the posts... could void your warranty. It could actually hold moisture in the post.

I don't know what the treatment is but I hadn't thought about holding moisture IN, that's a good point.

I think ultimately, like computer security, there is no one stop shop answer. I don't plan on being here 50 years, but I certainly don't want this thing falling down around someone later on. Thanks for the input.