Post hole idea

[Kevin54]

This could be for a pole barn of even fence post, but I have an idea and was wondering if anyone has ever done this or what you think of it.

When pouring concrete around post, a few people will use the earth as a form. Some will use the Sono-Tubes. On one show of Mike Holmes he said to keep post from rising with frost heave was to undermine the bottom of the hole so the concrete cannot pull up.

Why couldn't a person use plastic culvert pipe in a large diameter? Once the earth is settled around the tube, there is no way it could pull up because of the ridges. You wouldn't have to undermine the hole to keep things from shifting. I've been thinking of a way to put in some fence post so they will not move or shift in the winter. We can get some fairly windy days from Fall thru Spring. My neighbor has replaced the plastic fence around his pool probably 6 times. I have maybe 18' of fence between my shed and garage and every year it shifts some and loosens up.

Anyways, just tossing an idea out there and see what you think about it. I would think someone has tried it

 

[bgarrett]

I'd like to know how to make a post hole in rocky ground

 

[Kevin54]

I'd like to know how to make a post hole in rocky ground

That I wouldn't know. All we have is hard clay and it can be a ***** in drought times to get a hole into it. We have to buy our rocks

 

[CNGsaves]

Another way to make your post virtually never heave (move up and down with freezes) is use same concept as the J bolts in concrete.

Dig your hole much larger than the post several feet deep in the ground. At bottom of post, drill hole through horizontally and install heavy steel bar (ie rebar) that extends out on both sides of post. Seal up the hole where bar went in - - - ie tar or whatever. REPEAT a few inches higher and put another rebar through post the other direction. Then bury post with your rebar anchor down in hole.

After a foot or so of back-filled soil is put in hole, tamp with solid metal bar (ie compress the soil). Set your post and secure with cross brace. Then continue adding back-fill soil and tamping with solid metal bar compressing the soil around the post. Tamp, tamp, tamp all that soil going back in so it's rock hard solid. Last foot or so from top, fill with concrete around post and that baby isn't going anywhere!!

 

[Gary S]

Just dig the hole, position the post, and pour the concrete. I've been doing it this way and never yet have had a post lift with frost heave. I think that is a myth for people who want to make a simple job more complicated.
My ground freezes down 6' on a cold winter, the temperature drops to -45, and I've never had a post move from frost heave in 40 years.

 

[larry_g]

I seen on This Old House a couple of times that use a form that looks like an inverted funnel. Maybe 2' dia at the bottom and then tapers to a pipe of ~1' dia that is 3-4' long.

lg
no neat sig line

 

[akdiesel]

Just dig the hole, position the post, and pour the concrete. I've been doing it this way and never yet have had a post lift with frost heave. I think that is a myth for people who want to make a simple job more complicated.
My ground freezes down 6' on a cold winter, the temperature drops to -45, and I've never had a post move from frost heave in 40 years.

I've done it this way for years as well. I could see issues with clay but I've only done it in sandy or rocky soil.

 

[StupidSheet]

This could be for a pole barn of even fence post, but I have an idea and was wondering if anyone has ever done this or what you think of it.

When pouring concrete around post, a few people will use the earth as a form. Some will use the Sono-Tubes. On one show of Mike Holmes he said to keep post from rising with frost heave was to undermine the bottom of the hole so the concrete cannot pull up.

Why couldn't a person use plastic culvert pipe in a large diameter? Once the earth is settled around the tube, there is no way it could pull up because of the ridges. You wouldn't have to undermine the hole to keep things from shifting. I've been thinking of a way to put in some fence post so they will not move or shift in the winter. We can get some fairly windy days from Fall thru Spring. My neighbor has replaced the plastic fence around his pool probably 6 times. I have maybe 18' of fence between my shed and garage and every year it shifts some and loosens up.

Anyways, just tossing an idea out there and see what you think about it. I would think someone has tried it

Unless you use galvanized the metal will rust in no time. Other than that sounds like it might work.

 

[Kevin54]

I seen on This Old House a couple of times that use a form that looks like an inverted funnel. Maybe 2' dia at the bottom and then tapers to a pipe of ~1' dia that is 3-4' long.

lg
no neat sig line

I have saw those used on a couple of shows and forgot about them. The only problem I see with those is that it takes a big post hole auger, or a lot of digging with a post hole digger to get the hole large enough to drop it into. I do like that idea though.

 

[bams50]

When the workers set the posts for the porch on my new house in 2004, they didn't even mix the concrete. They cut a bag and dropped it in, put the post onto it, and put more bags around the posts, then filled up with gravel. Seemed odd to me, but I had no idea, and trusted the builder. Haven't had any trouble yet.

 

[theoldwizard1]

I have only used sono tubes for fence post if the pole is oversized (usually from digging out a wood post set in concrete that rotted off).

I'm north of you and have never had a post move if I put if down at least 36" and set in concrete. A lot of folk say drill 2 or 3 cross hole and insert rebar. Back fill with coarse gravel and compact. Water in.

 

[Twiggss]

Unless you use galvanized the metal will rust in no time. Other than that sounds like it might work.

or use the the plastic kind like he said in his post.

 

[RECox286]

I knew of a person who put the post in a 5 gal bucket, filled with concrete,

then when it set up would dig a hole and bury the result (no ****).

How he would ever get them straight and level is beyond me, but some

how it seemed to work for him.

How to make a hole in rocky ground: The best way I know of is to buy

predug holes from the big box store. They are in the electrical section

and not always on display so you may have to ask. It's also considered

to be a seasonal item so sometimes they are out with the garden supplies.

Uncle Bob

 

[Spareparts]

Dig the hole sit the post fill the hole with Quick-Crete (dry) dump in some water or if it is a wet year it will **** the moisture out of the ground. The next morning it will be solid. Did it this way 30 yrs ago on my fence and it is still solid.

 

[7th Kahuna]

I like your idea for the culvert pipe but honestly couldn't say how well it would work in your situation. Here in Southern California I think it would be fine. In fact, I think I've seen it on a local barn. In clay soil, if you also deal with heavy winds, it seems like the plastic might make blowing over easier as the smooth plastic surface would have less resistance in the soil? Now you might be able to overcome that by driving a couple pieces of rebar into the soil below the post. How deep is the clay?

I was taught to open up (flare) the bottom of my hole with a shovel or post hole digger if I had concerns about uplift. This works whether you are starting with a power auger or not. I have done it on a couple occasions. When I see forms like the ones larry_g pictured above I generally think more about load distribution than uplift, though it would work for both. As noted however it adds to the expense and the amount of digging. Of course the best solution would be to dig past the frost line, smooth straight walls, and make sure to avoid a lip at the top of the hole. Now whether that is practical is another issue entirely.

 

[Kevin54]

I like your idea for the culvert pipe but honestly couldn't say how well it would work in your situation. Here in Southern California I think it would be fine. In fact, I think I've seen it on a local barn. In clay soil, if you also deal with heavy winds, it seems like the plastic might make blowing over easier as the smooth plastic surface would have less resistance in the soil? Now you might be able to overcome that by driving a couple pieces of rebar into the soil below the post. How deep is the clay?

I was taught to open up (flare) the bottom of my hole with a shovel or post hole digger if I had concerns about uplift. This works whether you are starting with a power auger or not. I have done it on a couple occasions. When I see forms like the ones larry_g pictured above I generally think more about load distribution than uplift, though it would work for both. As noted however it adds to the expense and the amount of digging. Of course the best solution would be to dig past the frost line, smooth straight walls, and make sure to avoid a lip at the top of the hole. Now whether that is practical is another issue entirely.

I would think that once the corrugations are compacted though it would prevent movement. A post can move in a hole by itself. A post surrounded by concrete can move unless surrounded by a good amount of concrete and possibly belling out the hole. I would think the corrugations would really diminish the movement back and forth due to the number of corrugations in a pipe.

 

[brewchief]

I've got a friend in the fence business and he will start filling the hole with concrete then stop and kick some dirt in then finish with concrete, he says posts done this way come out way harder even using his backhoe.

Sent from my C771 using Tapatalk 2

 

[7th Kahuna]

I would think that once the corrugations are compacted though it would prevent movement. A post can move in a hole by itself. A post surrounded by concrete can move unless surrounded by a good amount of concrete and possibly belling out the hole. I would think the corrugations would really diminish the movement back and forth due to the number of corrugations in a pipe.

You are probably right. Fortunately I don't have to deal with clay very often and never clay and ice at the same time. The clay is likely going to lubricate any surface about the same. The ribs should definitely provide resistance especially if you compact it. I was thinking maybe mix some course plaster sand into the backfill but again don't know if it would improve anything. Sounds like maybe you need to try a couple.

 

[Kevin54]

You are probably right. Fortunately I don't have to deal with clay very often and never clay and ice at the same time. The clay is likely going to lubricate any surface about the same. The ribs should definitely provide resistance especially if you compact it. I was thinking maybe mix some course plaster sand into the backfill but again don't know if it would improve anything. Sounds like maybe you need to try a couple.

Not clay like I think you are thinking. I think you are thinking clay like pottery clay. The clay we have is way different and is a total *****. In the drought season, it is tough just to get a backhoe through. Our clay isn't the slippery sliding clay. If one wants to plant a tree, you best dig the hole after a weeks worth of rain. Where I used to live, we had great soil. Almost the perfect soil for growing anything. Moving 20 miles due south, some of the shittiest soil around. And I hear the same thing every year from my wife.....we need to buy some good topsoil this year.

 

[kbs2244]

There is simply no reason to use concrete for any post.
Be it fence, pole barn, or home piling.

The guys to copy are the power company pole planters.
The key is to get at least 2 feet below the frost line.
Then fist sized rock, tamp like hell, dirt, tamp like hell, more rock, more tamping, until you are at grade.

The hard tamping is very important.
It drives the rock into the undisturbed soil around the hole sides.
Tamping the dirt drives it into the spaces between the rocks.

By the time they are done the pole is in dirt that just will not let go.
It is this friction between the pole and the dirt that is the strength of the construction.

There must be millions, if not billions, of poles installed this way.
They stand up to hurricanes, ice storms, and semi-trucks.
You might break off a pole, but you will never pull it out.
That is why when the come out to replace one they dig a new hole and saw off the old one at ground level.

 

[IHI]

Not looking down my nose at anybody but a simple lesson can be taught here.

1. peir footings HAVE to be belled out at the bottom, refer to the picture above with the sonotubes attached to the bigfoot footing pads...notice how the plastic bigfoot forms are belled? that bell shape is what LOCKS that peir footing into place. You can do the same thing without the bigfoot forms, they just make it easier since you over size the hole, set bigfoot in place, place the sonotube over teh bigfoot, back fill with dirt, and fill with concrete. There is no way for the ground to move that peir up and down during heave cycles since it is locked in underground below frost depth, and in order for it to heave/move up and down...it would have to overcome a massive load since it would be trying to pry up all the earth around the hole as well as the peir footing...that is'nt happeneing.

2. the whole point of sonotubes is to give the peir footing a smooth sidewall, essentially making it impossible of earth to grab onto the peir and give it a tooth to hold onto and assist in the up/down heave cycles. When just digging a standard post host and belling out of the bottom of the hole there will be indentations all along the depth of the hole ou just dug...every one of those imperfections/indentations creates a keyway that the concrete will pour/form into...think of lathe and plaster, you press the plaster onto the lathe, the plaster squeezes between all the gaps of the lathe creating keys that lock the plaster into place. When you pour the concrete into a hand dug hole, that is exactly what your doing...your voluntarily giving the peir footing keyways for the ground to grab onto your peir footing and try and do as it wishes with it come spring time when the freeze/thaw cycle begins.

3. As a last note, hopefully you took some understanding from my points above and can easily see how project suicidal it would be to use the corregated pipe, aka plastic culvert, aka black thing with all the ridges, aka pipe with a bunch of rings all hooked together...that is the best case scenario for the ground to 100% lock into your peir footing and give best case sceanario for that footing to move with the ground during the frost heave cycles.

As for movement, think about most guys garages that have an approach in front of them, the approaches are never to footing depth, they are poured on grade, and as such, notice around the doors where the OHD trim goes all the way down, or even the walk in doors where they go all the way down, the bottoms are always bent up/beat up looking...this is because the structure is ubber heavy and trying to stay put, while the approach is free to move up and down when proper drainage grade is'nt placed prior to the pour. So the approach's i've seen can have upto 2-3" of up/dwn movement, and i'm sure you guys have buddies that have mentioned during the winter/spring their approach will end up higher than the garage slab, but will settle back down during the summer months....the same thing, the same pressures are being exerted upon the peir footings when you give the ground a place to grab onto them, and your putting all your eggs in a basket hoping the structure is heavy enough to fight against the hydraulic pressure of the ground working on it.

Ultimately, the damage that is being done on improper peir footings is not something you may see in 1,2,3, 5 or 8 yrs from now...it's like a cavity in a tooth...it starts out as a tiny damage you dont know about, and as time goes on it will fester, eat away, and down the road is when problems will start to surface.

 

[srmofo]

I dug my holes and slightly bell shaped them at the bottom. I didnt waste a bunch of time doing, just real quick and dirty . Then I filled the bottom of the hole with a few inches of gravel to aid in drainage, so any water that gets between the concrete and post has some place to go. This should help with frost heave as well because the water has room to expand (in my head. but I could be wrong, I was more worried about rot than heave). I sunk 2 16D nails half-way into the post so it simply couldnt be 'pulled' from the concrete by a wind storm and set the post in. I poured some water in the holes, then the concrete dry, then some more water. Stirred it around a little bit with a stick. Finally I 'coned' the top of the concrete, so water would drain away from the post. Cover with dirt when it set up

 

[Kevin54]

There is simply no reason to use concrete for any post.
Be it fence, pole barn, or home piling.

The guys to copy are the power company pole planters.
The key is to get at least 2 feet below the frost line.
Then fist sized rock, tamp like hell, dirt, tamp like hell, more rock, more tamping, until you are at grade.

The hard tamping is very important.
It drives the rock into the undisturbed soil around the hole sides.
Tamping the dirt drives it into the spaces between the rocks.

By the time they are done the pole is in dirt that just will not let go.
It is this friction between the pole and the dirt that is the strength of the construction.

There must be millions, if not billions, of poles installed this way.
They stand up to hurricanes, ice storms, and semi-trucks.
You might break off a pole, but you will never pull it out.
That is why when the come out to replace one they dig a new hole and saw off the old one at ground level.

When one has a 36" frost line, how do you suggest going 5' down without having someone like a power company coming in and drilling the holes?

And if drilling with an auger on the back of a tractor, most don't go that deep. And if it would, how would you suggest tamping? A power tamper maybe, but they won't go that deep to start out.

 

[7th Kahuna]

Not clay like I think you are thinking. I think you are thinking clay like pottery clay. The clay we have is way different and is a total *****. In the drought season, it is tough just to get a backhoe through. Our clay isn't the slippery sliding clay. If one wants to plant a tree, you best dig the hole after a weeks worth of rain. Where I used to live, we had great soil. Almost the perfect soil for growing anything. Moving 20 miles due south, some of the shittiest soil around. And I hear the same thing every year from my wife.....we need to buy some good topsoil this year.

Yeah, I was thinking slippery. I can certainly appreciate both your and your wife's frustrations. I grew up in an area with perfect soil and every time I have moved it has gotten worse. In the neighborhood where I have long wanted to live, the soil is all rock and adobe. Adobe is really sticky. I kid you not when I say I have had 5 inches of the stuff stuck to the bottom of my boots. Back in the 50's, my grandfather built homes over there and it wasn't uncommon to use dynamite to clear the way for the foundations. That was only 6 miles or so from the perfect soil of my childhood home. If I ever do find my way over there, I have toyed with the idea of hiring a small dozer to scrape 18" of soil off the property and replace it with decent top soil. The challenge will be figuring out how to drain the property. Otherwise I may just find myself living in the middle of a small swamp.

Definitely get yourself some good soil. (Raised beds?) Alternatively perhaps you could rototill in a serious truck load of properly seasoned mulch and maybe some lime.

 

[Stephenw]

I use a digging bar to make the hole. The post hole digger is to remove the loosened material. I widen the hole at the bottom into a bell shape. Fill the bottom of the hole with gravel and insert the post. I fill the hole with mixed concrete and crown the top so water will run away from the post.

It is important to put gravel in the bottom of the hole so water will drain away from the base of the post. If the base of the post is set in concrete, water will seep down between the post and concrete and never drain; think miniature swimming pool. The post will rot away in a short time.

Some use nails in the bottom of the post to anchor it into the concrete. This will make removal more difficult. I have pulled a post out of a concrete base and driven another down into the same hole before. This is useful if a post splits or badly warps.

 

[theoldwizard1]

Not clay like I think you are thinking. I think you are thinking clay like pottery clay. The clay we have is way different and is a total *****. In the drought season, it is tough just to get a backhoe through. Our clay isn't the slippery sliding clay. If one wants to plant a tree, you best dig the hole after a weeks worth of rain.

Same stuff in my corner of MI.

It will break up with multiple passes of a rototiller even in the middle of summer. I put all my grass clippings and leaves in my garden and the soil is pretty god.. It will still turn hard as a rock in the summer if I don't water it.

 

[HemiMan]

Just dig the hole, position the post, and pour the concrete. I've been doing it this way and never yet have had a post lift with frost heave. I think that is a myth for people who want to make a simple job more complicated.
My ground freezes down 6' on a cold winter, the temperature drops to -45, and I've never had a post move from frost heave in 40 years.

Funny this topic should arise now because I am currently designing new foundations for the bleachers and stairs at a local HS football field because the existing foundations have heaved as much as 15" due to frost. When I was first called to look at the bleachers I could see immediately what the problem was. The existing foundations are built just like this poster suggested. They are round drilled piers with about 12" sticking out of the ground. The part sticking out of the ground is nice and smooth and probably formed with a sonotube. But below the surface the concrete is just dumped in the hole resulting in a very rough surface which the frost can adhere to and heave the pier. There is a term for this phenomenon called "adfreezing", look it up if you don't believe me. If you have built piers like this and they have not heaved that is because there are 3 things that have to be present for frost heave and you,luckily, did not have them. You need freezing temperatures, frost susceptible soils and a source of capillary water. If all 3 of these are not present you will not get frost heave.

 

[onewaydave]

Well, it depends.

The substrate the post is going into and the stresses it has to endure determine a lot of this.

Holmes is right. Wallowing out (or whatever term) is essentially a footer. Footers are usually tied to the structure they support. They help prevent falling out of plumb and lifting, but don't necessarily eliminate it given other forces.

In areas of sandy soil, using the hole as a form is usually not successful. Sand runs into the hole formed as fast as you dig it out.

In more clay-like soils, a post hole can be its own form. It is more difficult to do this and form a footer though. So one chooses to dig the footer diameter and use forms to pour the post or do without a footer. But Mr Holmes suggests digging a conical post hole and incorporate the pole and footer (I'm presuming, here). Depending on the need for accuracy, an asymmetrical cone is not much better than a post with straight sides.

My brother, who has taught me a lot about fence building, learned to put up fence in rocky west Texas. Bedrock was about 3" below the surface. So, dig, pick axe or dynamite your hole. Or, build the fence post above ground. Wire mesh filled with rock rubble is common. Not necessarily easier. One thing he learned, that applies to one of your questions, is back filling around a straight or corrugated tube isn't enough. You gotta tamp it every 6" or so to prevent air pockets.

Where I live, our soil is called "sugar loam". If it gets wet, it behaves exactly like sugar does. It dissolves in front of your eyes. Here, the locals that are any good at fence building, put in huge corner posts and very large stringers. Most prefer hedge in the 36" + diameter and set them at 2/3 underground. So a fence 4' high would have 8' under ground.

Long winded reply made short:
1. Yes corrugated tube is often used as pier forms.
2. No, using corrugated tube does not eliminate the need for footers in every situation.

I'd guess that if you are having problems with lift, you are not getting below the frost level for your area.

Dave, especially chatty tonight.

 

[walleye catcher]

kbs2244
the location were I work we just erected 8 pole barns. All around 30 x 40 the poles were laminated 2x6 treated below ground and transitions to untreated above ground. The posts were drilled to 7 ft and 3/4 crushed stone was tamped in the bottom of the holes and around the posts. The most important thing is to go below the frost line, the irregular 3/4 stone interlocks when tamped tight. These poles will not be affected by frost.

 

[kbs2244]

Walleye catcher:
You guys did it right.
It is the cheapest way and the best.

 

[Garage Dog]

There are a number of ways to do this successfully, soil conditions have a significant impact on how much effort is required. The fact is that heavy clay soils hold more moisture and create and magnify the effects of "heaving".

I have just bored and hand dug the holes, used sono-tubes, not used sono-tubes , belled out the bottom or not. None have heaved - ever.

The one constant has always been - I go well below the frost line.

I replaced a foundation on a house with piers that only went down 24" - it hadn't moved in 90 years... It had sand and rock, excellent stability and drainage, water never stayed to allow it heave. We still went down at least 6' with the new footings based on what we had to build. Just saying 24" worked for 90 years.

If you have soil issues:

1. Go well below the "frost line" in you region. Going an extra 6-12" below the code requirement costs almost nothing (unless you have a huge project) and gives you a little insurance.

2. If your soil will hold the moisture, add crushed lime or what ever product is available in your area to allow some drainage of the water so it does not cause heaving and doesn't hold water to rot the posts if you are sinking them below grade.

Just my experience...

 

[Thruxton]

Many thousands miles of board fence have been put up with no concrete, as kbs2244 notes, all over the US. Auger and tamp works just fine, and if you use a ram to set them it's even easier. Your boards will warp and pop off before the posts will heave. Note I am NOT talking about pole barn poles, just board fence. The practice here is 8' poles, set 3' in, tops usually trimmed off to 4 1/2'.

 

[bcoke]

All methods will fail [succumb to heave] if the post is not below the FROST LINE!.Since the frost line varies but location it is a different number for where you are! Go 1-2 feet under frost line have solid { earth,rock ,bedrock} under and it will not move.....Bcokehttp://www.garagejournal.com/forum/images/smilies/lol_hitting.gif

 

[Sawnami]

Been running through threads for ideas. A lot of great information. I'm getting ready to have a pole barn garage buildt. This is the "soil" that we have to deal with here.

 

[Kevin54]

Been running through threads for ideas. A lot of great information. I'm getting ready to have a pole barn garage buildt. This is the "soil" that we have to deal with here.

What did they use that took a plug of soil out like that?

 

[Ray Kelly]

I seen on This Old House a couple of times that use a form that looks like an inverted funnel. Maybe 2' dia at the bottom and then tapers to a pipe of ~1' dia that is 3-4' long.

lg
no neat sig line

They use these on the This Old House Show because they have to have them up the north eastern states. The frost line there goes down to about four feet and you have to go that deep because the code requires you to do so. As you come farther south, the frost line isn't quite that deep. Across Ohio, Indiana, Illinois, Pennsylvania, etc. the code might only call for a 24-30" frost line hole. The frost line isn't quite as deep in those states. It doesn't matter how you shape the hole. If you don't get below the frost line in your area, you could have your posts heave up out of the ground. The frost can be pretty violent when it comes to this.

 

[NUTTSGT]

What did they use that took a plug of soil out like that?

Looks like a big core boring bit or hole saw looking would be my guess.

 

[gungatim]

There is simply no reason to use concrete for any post.
Be it fence, pole barn, or home piling.....

I agree, around here, we don't use concrete. dig the hole below frost line, drop in a round pre-formed concrete pad (like a patio block but a little thicker), then put in the pole on the pad and refill. No heave if below frost line. concrete just keeps moisture around the pole and hastens rot.

 

[SteveCh]

I have dug too many post holes to count here at my place, over the years. Including the posts on which my house sits. Rocky soil, very rocky, hard, tough, difficult. Too steep to use any sort of machine by myself. So I use a five-foot pry bar to break the soil as I go, and to pry out larger stones. Brute physical labor, in other words. I end up on my belly pulling up the last of the loose dirt with a can or something.

If I am using concrete, I dig the hole deep enough to put a layer of gravel in the bottom, then concrete on top of that. Supposedly, that keeps moisture from rotting the post. Makes sense, but whether it really makes a difference, I can't say.

Now, if I were needing a lot of posts all at once, such as a barn or large shop, my hand method would be way too slow and labor-intensive.

Those who say no need for concrete are correct at least in some situations. [Sharp stones packed in around the post....] Would not trust my 300-lb. steel gate to posts set that way, though.

I don't know what the frost line is here, but it is probably way down there. [I've seen -35 F. before.] But the bedrock level here is almost never less than 4 ft. or so down, so I usually hit it when digging. Some spots are only a couple feet down, so the frost thing is not my worry.

 

[Dave in Mass]

I have saw those used on a couple of shows and forgot about them. The only problem I see with those is that it takes a big post hole auger, or a lot of digging with a post hole digger to get the hole large enough to drop it into. I do like that idea though.

One neat trick with those footing pieces for making the bottom of the footing larger than the body and the top is to buy one extra and use it for a funnel when pouring / filling the sonnet tubes.

--DG