Problem with Garbage Disposal Wiring

[Junkman]

The garbage disposal breaker in the panel trips when nothing is plugged into the receptacle. The receptacle is a GFCI under the sink, and the breaker in the panel is an arc fault breaker. If the arc-fault breaker is replaced with a standard breaker, everything is fine. The wiring is in the wall, and the wall is already sheetrocked. Is it OK to use a standard breaker for a garbage disposal? This is a new build with new wiring. If I have to open up the wall, what should we be looking for? We have already swapped the breaker that trips for another new arc-fault breaker, with no change. Then we tried a standard breaker, and everything works as it should. Would it be safe to use the standard breaker, or should we start tearing teh wall apart looking for the problem? The electrician says to use the standard breaker, but I don't want problems later on. Once the granite is installed, it will be impossible to ever get into the wall again. The walls are spray-foamed, and most of the wiring is inside the spray foam.

 

[Chuckster in NJ]

Stop throwing parts at this and call an electrical contractor who knows how to troubleshoot a problem like this………. DO NOT start tearing open the wall at this point because I think this MAY be a simple problem to be fixed.

 

[rooster59]

New build, have the electrician figure it out. Guess? Drywall screw

 

[Junkman]

Stop throwing parts at this and call an electrical contractor who knows how to troubleshoot a problem like this………. DO NOT start tearing open the wall at this point because I think this MAY be a simple problem to be fixed.

As I said, the electrician couldn't find the problem, so I am asking for suggestions as to what it could be. The idea of a screw is out because the walls are 5 1/2" (2x6) studs, and the holes were drilled deep away from the depth of a sheetrock screw. What is your thoughts as to a simple problem?

 

[sparky 1971]

Pull the receptacle out. More than once I've had the neutral and ground touching and that will trip an AFCI.

 

[Chuckster in NJ]

As I said, the electrician couldn't find the problem, so I am asking for suggestions as to what it could be. The idea of a screw is out because the walls are 5 1/2" (2x6) studs, and the holes were drilled deep away from the depth of a sheetrock screw. What is your thoughts as to a simple problem?

Well……. did the electrician "ring out" (test) the wires? Did he open up any boxes? Did he do any "isolation" on the circuit? Is this disposal the only appliance on the circuit……. Dishwasher?
Was any wiring damaged during renovations?
Without being there "in person" it is impossible to troubleshoot this problem and there could be a "hidden issue" inside the wall that may cause a fire so that is why I highly suggest to call an electrician who knows how to troubleshoot a problem problem like this.

BTW! A arc on wiring is like a small welding arc and will only get worse with time if not corrected.

 

[Junkman]

I just learned that it is the wire coming from the panel to the box alongside the sink, and there are no switches or receptacles involved. Since that wire is buried in the wall foam, it is impossible to trace it.

 

[sparky 1971]

So it goes to a box with no devices in it. Pull the cover on it, pull the wires out and separate them. Someone may have only capped or taped off the hot wire, leaving an exposed neutral to touch the ground. Or, and this is an even better idea, call the person you paid to install it and make them deal with it.

 

[PCustoms]

Or, and this is an even better idea, call the person you paid to install it and make them deal with it.

This

 

[Junkman]

The person I paid to do the wiring is the one who told me of the problem. While I was typing, he came back this morning and resolved the problem. It was a defective breaker.

 

[Chuckster in NJ]

Or, and this is an even better idea, call the person you paid to install it and make them deal with it.

Obviously "electrician #1" doesn’t know what he’s doing so tell him to hire a real electrician to teach him the skills of troubleshooting a problem like this.……. There are electricians and there are ELECTRICIANS.

BTW! As an inspector I ran into many licensed electrical contractors (nice guys) who were clueless about troubleshooting and electrical theory. Had one EC change out a large septic pump motor, install a new breaker and replace a large transformer only to have the same problem so I asked him if he used a megger to check the wires and he said: "What’s a megger?"…….. The wires were bad and that should have been the first thing he should have checked on a long 200’ run. He pulled new wires charged the customer for everything else and the problem was resolved.

 

[Chuckster in NJ]

The person I paid to do the wiring is the one who told me of the problem. While I was typing, he came back this morning and resolved the problem. It was a defective breaker.

Glad he got it resolved!

I told you it was something simple!!!

 

[PCustoms]

It was a defective breaker.

Did he replace the "defective" afci with the exact same type of breaker, or just a normal breaker?

 

[larry4406]

Did he replace the "defective" afci with the exact same type of breaker, or just a normal breaker?

Good question as the opening post was clear that replacement with another AFCI breaker resulted in same trip event whereas it was stated that a regular breaker would not trip it.

 

[PCustoms]

Good question as the opening post was clear that replacement with another AFCI breaker resulted in same trip event whereas it was stated that a regular breaker would not trip it.

Great catch

We have already swapped the breaker that trips for another new arc-fault breaker, with no change. Then we tried a standard breaker, and everything works as it should.

If it's not in the junction (which isn't clear if there is a junction or a GFCI) my bet is one of the screws from the cabinet installation.

 

[kbuhagiar]

Good question as the opening post was clear that replacement with another AFCI breaker resulted in same trip event whereas it was stated that a regular breaker would not trip it.

I know this goes without saying but If it was just swapped with a normal breaker the problem is probably still there.

 

[sparky 1971]

The garbage disposal breaker in the panel trips when nothing is plugged into the receptacle. The receptacle is a GFCI under the sink, and the breaker in the panel is an arc fault breaker.

We have already swapped the breaker that trips for another new arc-fault breaker, with no change.

I just learned that it is the wire coming from the panel to the box alongside the sink, and there are no switches or receptacles involved.

It was a defective breaker.

?

 

[wyliesdiesels]

As I said, the electrician couldn't find the problem

I reread your OP twice just to make sure i didnt miss it however you did not state this in your OP at all

since this is a new build youre paying for, the electrician should be the one worrying about the issue and fixing it. if he cant, then he needs to find another electrician who can.

I wouldnt be touching any of it as the homeowner...

 

[wyliesdiesels]

Was any wiring damaged during renovations?

its a new build NOT a renovation

 

[wyliesdiesels]

The idea of a screw is out because the walls are 5 1/2" (2x6) studs, and the holes were drilled deep away from the depth of a sheetrock screw.

sure, you can drill the holes far enough away from the side where the drywall screws are used only to drill to shallow to the side where the siding nails or screws are used.

what kind of siding are you using? its possible a screw or nail for the siding nailed the wiring.

 

[wyliesdiesels]

I just learned that it is the wire coming from the panel to the box alongside the sink, and there are no switches or receptacles involved. Since that wire is buried in the wall foam, it is impossible to trace it.

so how does the disposal get turned on and off?

 

[wyliesdiesels]

The person I paid to do the wiring is the one who told me of the problem. While I was typing, he came back this morning and resolved the problem. It was a defective breaker.

so he had TWO defective breakers? In the OP you stated another arc fault breaker was tried with the same results.

Thats some really bad odds.

what is the brand and model?

We have already swapped the breaker that trips for another new arc-fault breaker, with no change.

 

[mm08822]

Obviously "electrician #1" doesn’t know what he’s doing so tell him to hire a real electrician to teach him the skills of troubleshooting a problem like this.……. There are electricians and there are ELECTRICIANS.

BTW! As an inspector I ran into many licensed electrical contractors (nice guys) who were clueless about troubleshooting and electrical theory. Had one EC change out a large septic pump motor, install a new breaker and replace a large transformer only to have the same problem so I asked him if he used a megger to check the wires and he said: "What’s a megger?"…….. The wires were bad and that should have been the first thing he should have checked on a long 200’ run. He pulled new wires charged the customer for everything else and the problem was resolved.

This thread prompted me to look at current offerings of meggers. Much cheaper today than the old biddle crank-up style of yesteryear.

Anyone have experience with Klein ET600 or other cheapies offered today?

 

[mm08822]

so he had TWO defective breakers? In the OP you stated another arc fault breaker was tried with the same results.

Thats some really bad odds.

Yeah, I was thinking it's time for

 

[JohnX14]

We have already swapped the breaker that trips for another new arc-fault breaker, with no change. Then we tried a standard breaker, and everything works as it should.

Others posted this point already. 2 bad AFCI breakers? What are the odds? I'm betting the electrician found something he did, and 'bad breaker' was easiest explanation.

 

[wyliesdiesels]

This thread prompted me to look at current offerings of meggers. Much cheaper today than the old biddle crank-up style of yesteryear.

Anyone have experience with Klein ET600 or other cheapies offered today?

sorry no. its fluke or go home for me

my 1587 FC has some great features but will break the bank for most people. I did get it on sale on amazon before inflation rose prices on everything

 

[wyliesdiesels]

Others posted this point already. 2 bad AFCI breakers? What are the odds? I'm betting the electrician found something he did, and 'bad breaker' was easiest explanation.

and instead of having integrity, being honest, and having the balls to admit the mistake, he lied about it...

 

[JohnX14]

and instead of having integrity, being honest, and having the balls to admit the mistake, he lied about it...

Well that is my guess. I can't remember one bad AFI in recent years, and not 2 in a row with the 3rd time being the charm.

 

[Chuckster in NJ]

This thread prompted me to look at current offerings of meggers. Much cheaper today than the old biddle crank-up style of yesteryear.

Anyone have experience with Klein ET600 or other cheapies offered today?

I had the old Biddle "crank masters" and they worked great……… IMHO the amount of times you may need a megger to check insulation I would suggest buying an old cranky megger (that sits in the shop) that can be had for cheap or sometimes free.

BTW! Fluke meters for the pros!…….. Invest in quality.

 

[mm08822]

I had the old Biddle "crank masters" and they worked great……… IMHO the amount of times you may need a megger to check insulation I would suggest buying an old cranky megger (that sits in the shop) that can be had for cheap or sometimes free.

BTW! Fluke meters for the pros!…….. Invest in quality.

Yup, thought of that as well, but just for a few hundred $ maybe there are newer options (that work). However, I dont want garbage/POS.

I wouldn't use it enough to justify a Fluke for this purpose and have enough dvm's already.

ETA: Ebay has Fluke 1503's in the $2/300 range. Not a combo DVM, but affordable.

Anyone with experience using Fluke 1503?

 

[Junkman]

I reread your OP twice just to make sure i didnt miss it however you did not state this in your OP at all

since this is a new build youre paying for, the electrician should be the one worrying about the issue and fixing it. if he cant, then he needs to find another electrician who can.

I wouldnt be touching any of it as the homeowner...

its a new build NOT a renovation

It is technically a renovation. We kept the outer walls, and stripped everything back to the outside walls, new electrical, plumbing, inside walls, Insulation, kitchen, etc.

so how does the disposal get turned on and off?

The breaker was tripping before he installed the switch for the disposer. That is when he started checking things and found the problem. I was told about the problem by the carpenter. After talking to the electrician this afternoon, he told me that the problem breaker was swapped with the one above it, and that it "popped" in that position. When that happened, he thought it was still in the same slot, but it wasn't. I guess that is an easy mistake to make in a panel with 21 breakers on each side. We were short on breakers, so I bought 3 additional from Amazon, but they didn't come in an original box, but in a foam bag. These are Square D QO breakers, and all the rest I purchased came packed in Square D cardboard boxes. I don't know if Square D sells breakers in bulk boxes or not.
I wanted him to get everything in the kitchen done because if there were a problem after the backsplash was installed, there would be no way to troubleshoot it once the granite was glued in place, such as a sheetrock screw hitting a wire.

so he had TWO defective breakers? In the OP you stated another arc fault breaker was tried with the same results.

Thats some really bad odds.

what is the brand and model?

Only one defective breaker, and the brand is Square D. As for the electrician, he is working for me as a favor, since he has a job with an electrical contractor who doesn't always have work for him. My only complaint about his work is that he wasted a lot of wire. There is no doubt in my mind that he doesn't have as much experience as some of you do, but everyone has to learn every day on the job. I don't know anyone who starts off as an expert on day one.

 

[PCustoms]

Only one defective breaker, and the brand is Square D. As for the electrician, he is working for me as a favor, since he has a job with an electrical contractor who doesn't always have work for him. My only complaint about his work is that he wasted a lot of wire. There is no doubt in my mind that he doesn't have as much experience as some of you do, but everyone has to learn every day on the job. I don't know anyone who starts off as an expert on day one.

I ask again:

Did he replace the "defective" afci with the exact same type of breaker, or just a normal breaker?

 

[Chuckster in NJ]

is no doubt in my mind that he doesn't have as much experience as some of you do, but everyone has to learn every day on the job. I don't know anyone who starts off as an expert on day one.

I would not want a "rookie" with minimal experience and no insurance learning the trade on my house ESPECIALLY on the electrical system.
I agree everyone starts out and will have to learn the trade but they need to have years of supervision with an experienced electrician.……. And that experienced electrician is not on the internet.

TIP! Hire a licensed electrician to check out what this "original" guy did……. Wiring is not a hobby!

 

[PCustoms]

As for the electrician, he is working for me as a favor, since he has a job with an electrical contractor who doesn't always have work for him. My only complaint about his work is that he wasted a lot of wire. There is no doubt in my mind that he doesn't have as much experience as some of you do, but everyone has to learn every day on the job. I don't know anyone who starts off as an expert on day one.

So the guy is likely an unlicensed apprentice who works under the supervision of a licensed electrician at his normal job.

Is this work under a permit and being inspected?