Propane- it was nice while it lasted

[trovato]

I have been a very happy propane user, with two Empire direct vent heaters in my garage/shop area. Except for the bill, that is. I just thought I'd share my latest calculations. My electric is priced differently peak vs. off peak. Peak is 13 cents/kwh. Assuming an 80% efficient propane heater, the electricity is equivalent to paying $2.80/gal for propane. At 90% efficiency, $3.15/gal for propane. And at 100% efficiency (impossible) $3.50/gal. Just talked to my propane supplier and they quoted me $4.00/gal to fill my 100 gal tank right now. I am not a big propane user so I am not going to get the best discount rate. And they own the tank, so they build that into the price as well. If I owned the tank, they quoted around $3.00/gal. Bottom line is, right now for me electricity is cheaper. Strange but true. I think I'll be putting in a couple of electric units and letting the propane heaters take this winter off. Then we'll see what happens in a year.

BTW, here's the calculator I used:
http://ces.ca.uky.edu/energy/calculators/fuel_price_comparison/

 

[Kevin54]

Just talked to my propane supplier and they quoted me $4.00/gal to fill my 100 gal tank right now.

I just got a flier that I could get propane at $1.69/gal. locked in until March. The one that I get propane off of now just raised their price to $2.24 and that is high compared to everyhone else. Most are hovering around the $1.89 mark now and that is up $.05-$.10 since last week. But $4.00/gal. is just ****

 

[Franz©]

Lots of years buying & burning propane have taught me the ONLY way to deal with propane supliers is when I own the tanks.

The price difference is generally 20¢/gallon or more, and I get dealers to bid against each other.

 

[mulepackin]

Highway diesel fuel just went to $3.33/gal. here this week. I'm just furious, but I can't imagine what it would be like to be facing a winter of having to heat with oil either. Yikes.

 

[trovato]

Kevin54,

Yeah, Midwest typically has the lowest propane prices and the Northeast typically has the highest. ***** to be me, I guess.

Franz,

What you say is historically true, but it's a new world out there. Owning the tank definitely gives you a better price. But around here, dealers aren't really competing for low volume users. I think they view us as more of a PITA than we're worth. I know you live "in a house" but do you wish to share with us what part of the globe that house is attached to? Location is very relevant when discussing propane prices. I promise if you tell me where you live, I won't drop by for dinner.

 

[Franz©]

Good thing you ain't plannin on free dinner cause LN gets real snotty bout that, especially when people just show up.

I'm outside of Rochester, NY.

You're right, you're a PITA customer because of delivery cost. On the other side of the coin, there is no reason you can't throw a 100 in your truck, drive it to the fill plant, and either swap it or get it filled cheap. Thousands of 100s
do that every day.

Your major problem is geographic. Who are you dealing with? If it's Amerigas you got screwed day 1.

 

[trovato]

I'm dealing with Paraco, but I haven't found a big difference from one to the other. What does it cost you to get your 100 filled in Rochester? Last time I was in Tech Air for some welding stuff I asked them and they said "about 80 bucks". That's better than $4, but it's not what I'd call cheap.

 

[Hades12]

2.54 here

Last winter was 1.79

 

[Northstar9126]

For a real chuckle try Ferrell Gas if they are in your area. They are so high compared to anybody else you might try as to be comical.

 

[trovato]

Hades12,
Who owns the tank and how much do you use in a year?

Northstar9126,
They're not in my area, but $4.00 had me chuckle enough for one day, thank you.

 

[john56h]

Westchester County is probably a bit on the high side...even compared to the rest of New York State.

Do you use propane for cooking too?

 

[Franz©]

The last time I loaded the 500g it was $1.67 cod.
The price for a fill on a small tank varys according to who you are and where you go. I know people who pay $40- for a forklift tank 8 gallons ± and $32- for a 122 oxygen here.

I refill my own propane forklift tanks from the 500 and pay $11- for the 122 oxygen at the same supply house. Honestly, a lot of small users piss off the counterman at the gas suplier and pay for doing it.

There's also the PITA fee, a bobtail driver makes the company a lot more $$/hour fillingg 500 and larger tanks, so the small user takes in the shorts for loss of productivity.

If I was buying 100s, I'd set the system up with a flip regulator, and haul my own empty in for refill/swap. The whole propane industry used those back i the 1960s, and it worked well.

Propane supliers need to be changed every few years anyhow if you aren't buying gas in your own tank. They all come in with a low rate, and jack every year figuring you won't notice and switch. It's the same as insurance agents.

 

[trovato]

Westchester County is probably a bit on the high side...even compared to the rest of New York State.

Do you use propane for cooking too?

Nope. Just garage heaters. I use about 100 gal per year. Every time I think about using it for more, the price goes up and I think better of it.

 

[Steve in Mi]

trovato are you going to need to bring in bigger electrical service to handle the switch over? If so you may be investing your savings in copper wire.

 

[trovato]

The last time I loaded the 500g it was $1.67 cod.
The price for a fill on a small tank varys according to who you are and where you go. I know people who pay $40- for a forklift tank 8 gallons ± and $32- for a 122 oxygen here.

I refill my own propane forklift tanks from the 500 and pay $11- for the 122 oxygen at the same supply house. Honestly, a lot of small users piss off the counterman at the gas suplier and pay for doing it.

There's also the PITA fee, a bobtail driver makes the company a lot more $$/hour fillingg 500 and larger tanks, so the small user takes in the shorts for loss of productivity.

If I was buying 100s, I'd set the system up with a flip regulator, and haul my own empty in for refill/swap. The whole propane industry used those back i the 1960s, and it worked well.

Propane supliers need to be changed every few years anyhow if you aren't buying gas in your own tank. They all come in with a low rate, and jack every year figuring you won't notice and switch. It's the same as insurance agents.

1.67 huh. I hope you're not in for a shock next time. You're saying you fill your own forklift tanks at the supply house? Around here their lawyers wouldn't let you do that. I guess they're afraid you'll light up a cigarette while talking on your cell phone. I really don't think I PO-ed the counterman who quoted me the $80. We were having a great old chat about car racing and stuff. I think if it wasn't 10am we would have gone out for a beer. The flip regulator is nice, but "they" say that I should have at least 1 100 for each heater to have an adequate evaporation rate. I guess if you want to have more 100s you can still do the flip thing. Around here I would say that most users have 100 gal (420lb) tanks, either one or two. When I first got propane, company pushed me to get a humongous tank. Finally settled on two of the 100 gal tanks. A few years later they say they don't want me to have two, just one. I guess at first the priority was to reduce the number of deliveries and have me hold the propane after paying for it, instead of them. Then they decided that they had too much money ******* in tanks.

 

[trovato]

trovato are you going to need to bring in bigger electrical service to handle the switch over? If so you may be investing your savings in copper wire.

No. House was originally resistive electric heat. Now I have a heat pump. I still have circuits for the unused baseboards that can be repurposed to garage heat.

 

[Franz©]

Methinks yer too damn close to the Big Rotting Apple for yer own good. Fire Marshalls up here in povertyville know better than to go sticking their noses in too deep cause they can get whacked on the back of the head.

Migrating propane is a time honored tradition in farm country. Hell, I'm even on the endangered protected species list, I'm a registered NY State Farmer. I don't even need building permits as long as it's animal housing, and I can afford to feed a few chickens if I have to.

The oversize tank game got it's start with Level Propane back around 95 when they were still halfway honest. In large part it was to minimize their bobtail runs, and let the customer pay ahead of time to hold propane he would burn later, rather than tankfarm it. What very few people did was read the contract. When Level went **** up and started takin on water the bozo brought in to mismanage the company started exercizing the portion of the contract that required customers to either buy propane enough to justify the customer premise storage, or pay a penalty. Of course, by then the Attorneys General of at least 10 states were on Level like white on rice. Even our brilliant now Govenor piled on, and loosed his Hispanic Rochester staff on Level. While Betty Montgomery in Ohio pummeled Level and got money for her citizens, Elliot & Jose let Level file bankruptcy. Now I happen to know a few goodolboys that knew where Level's yard was who engaged in some self help before the dimwitts of Amerigas bought the bankruptcy assets.

Down where you are, a heat pump might be a decent way to heat the shop, unless you're paying electric rates like we are up here. Fact is there just ain't any free lunch any more when it comes to heat.

 

[trovato]

OK, well now you lost me, so I guess I'll let you have the last word on this. I guess I haven't been following the politics of propane that closely. As for the self help method, down here we call that a felony. And I don't know what anyone being Hispanic has to do with anything. I guess we're taught to be a little more PC down here by the Rotting Apple.

 

[mike194]

here in South Dakota, i have a seperate electrical meter for heat. heat electricity is priced at 3.2 cents a kilowatt hour. and electricity for everything else is 8 cents a kilowatt

http://www.northernelectric.coop/Electricity.htm


a propane tank is pretty rare sight around here.

 

[trovato]

Here, for 3.2 cents they might hook you up to a AA Battery. I have a split meter with a different rate for peak and off-peak. I understand the reasons for that. I don't really see why they would give you a break for heat, though. Of course, when someone offers me a discount I don't understand, I say "thank you very much" anyway.

 

[Franz©]

3.2¢ in NY is about what we pay in tax on a KWH of electric so we can pay for all them droids in the Big Rottin Apple to ride the train back to the burbs for the night.

Trovato, what's your off peak rate? If it's cheap enough you can electricly heat eutectic solution off peak and run the solution thru an exchanger for heat.

I can't even get off peak metering here, but then I do have 3Ø power to the shop. Actually I'm thinking of telling the PoCo to disconnect the house meter and running everything from the shop service to save on monthly meter charges.

 

[trovato]

After adding delivery, supply, transition, SBC/RPS, and Merch Function charges, this is what I come up with:

13.2 cents peak
8.4 cents off peak

Note, only the delivery and supply numbers differ between peak and off peak. Off peak is between 11:30pm and 7am. One interesting thing is that during a power failure, the meter clock stops and the off peak period shifts an hour later for every hour the power is out. It stays shifted until the next time a meter reader person appears and resets the clock with his magic key. Rather primitive for the 21st century, don't you think?

I've heard of Electric Thermal Storage (ETS) heaters, but the ones I've seen always use a solid ceramic or brick-type thermal mass. I haven't seen one that uses eutectic solution.

 

[Franz©]

LN had the eutectic setup in her house in Allentown 15 years ago. It wasn't complex, but the installing contractor sure played a game of making her believe it was so he could sell an annual service contract.

The system itself was nothing more than 2 500 gal tanks with heaters in them and a circulator carrying the solution to an oversized A coil in the electric furnace which also served as backup heat and AC air handling. Personally, I had a feeling the so called eutectic solution was just demineralized water given that the water in that region contains chunks of limestone that won't disolve.

Even with your rates, I doubt it would be economical though. Her rate was 1.2¢ off peak and 2.9 ¢ on peak. Gotta love Penn Power, they are even converting Allentown's sewage to electrons now.

 

[trovato]

Well, my understanding of eutectic is as follows. A lot of energy goes into changing state from solid to liquid. It would be nice to be able to store energy as melted solid, because then you would get all that energy back as the liquid solidified again. It's kind of the same thing as using ice to keep stuff cold, except in reverse. Anyway, point is that to be eutectic there has to be a state change of the solution. Otherwise it's just a thermal mass. Nothing wrong with that, of course, but you don't get the extra energy storage of the change of state. Of course, at 1.2¢ off peak and 2.9 ¢ on peak, I'd just use resistive heat and leave the windows open just for the heck of it. Well, not really, those nostalgic price thoughts were just going to my head.

 

[trovato]

BTW, what do you mean that Allentown's sewage is converting to electrons? Creates an image in my head of people pooping lightning or something.

 

[toolman]

I locked in at 1.93 and with a ceiling of 2.08 with Ferrellgas this heating season. The only appliance that uses propane in my house is my furnace. I only use a little over 500gal a heating season. My contract is for 735 gal. They said if my use were higher my cost would be lower. My last fill in march was at 1.57 gal.

 

[Franz©]

PP&L is one of the leaders in the energy generating business when it comes to converting shyt to electricity. They paid the $$ to put a rubnber dome over Allentown's municipal waste processing tanks, and draw the methane off to run generators.

PP&L is also developing systems for large milk producers to install miniplants. 1000 cows going about their daily business produce sufficient **** in and around the milking parlor & feedlot to deiver suficient methane to power the entire milk operation, pay off the plant in 10 years, and still have electricity left over to sell to the grid. The best part, the used shyt looses no nutirient value in terms of fertilizing land, and may be a superior fertilizer to undigested cowshyt.

Methinks the word Eutectic when used in the heat storage industry is sort of like peak horsepower ratings on air compressors. Most people have little enough understanding of the English Language that selling a Eutectic storage mass is a lot easier than selling a tank of hot demineralized water. Then again, I don't sell heating systems, so I can't say for sure. There may well have been salts in the tank that did change state in thetemperature range the tank operated in.

 

[1320stang]

When I bought ,y house in '98, I was a little bummed that it was all electric as, historicly, an all electric home tended to cost more to heat but I've been lucky so far, my heating costs tend to be far cheaper than people on LPG or NG.

 

[Hades12]

Hades12,
Who owns the tank and how much do you use in a year?

Last year I was filling 100 # tanks by taking them in 4 or 5 fills. This year I have a 250# on my shop (i own) just filled monday 96.2 Gallons 284 total bill. Looks like the shop will use about 300 gallons.

My house has a "free" tank, used about 40 gallons so far this year. But the house is small 1K SQft, and the propane is just on a 3 plakue heater with the electric heat pump kicking on every now and then to circulate the heat.

 

[crowldawg]

Propane $3.25/gal and I'm waiting 3 weeks for the conversion kit . The manufacturer has sent the wrong one 2X
Diesel is $3.90 /Gal I 'm taking the trailer I'm restoring to FLA to work on it will be warmer and cheaper.
I filled up in Oct for fuel oil at $2.57/ . I have a 1000 gal tank . Its now going for $3.35
Joe Kennedy will be giving us all cheap oil from Venezuela soon!!!

 

[dipper]

Talk to Hank Hill over at Strickland Propane, he's got good deals on propane and propane accessories.







ha ha j/k, all this talk about propane made me do it

 

[5wndwcpe]

Talk to Hank Hill over at Strickland Propane, he's got good deals on propane and propane accessories.
ha ha j/k, all this talk about propane made me do it

Just don't mention Chuck Mangione.

 

[Franz©]

What the hell has Chuck got to do with Propane? Did he convert that damn flugalhorn of his to propane? I remember when he could blow that thing all night long on just a few drinks and a sandwich.

 

[Kevin54]

I remember when he could blow that thing all night long on just a few drinks and a sandwich.

He'll still work for that!!!

 

[mountainshop]

California ... land of high prices. Propane just delivered was $3.92/gallon.

Electricity is likely the higest in the nation here in Northern California thanks to Pacific Gas and Electric. We get a lifeline of 450KwH at 11.43cents
The next tier of 135Kwh is 13cents
The next tier of 315Kwh is 23cents
The next tier is 32cents per kwh.

Yes folks you see it right, when you run your welder here you pay 32 cents per kwh.

I heat with wood. Cook with propane and curse when I have to use electricity.

 

[crxmotorsports]

Propane supliers need to be changed every few years anyhow if you aren't buying gas in your own tank. They all come in with a low rate, and jack every year figuring you won't notice and switch. It's the same as insurance agents.

Lots of years buying & burning propane have taught me the ONLY way to deal with propane supliers is when I own the tanks.
The price difference is generally 20¢/gallon or more, and I get dealers to bid against each other.

I am currently setting up my shop with propane radiant heat and have been dealing with the same problem when calling local propane suppliers. They all seem to have a "magical" low price for the initial fill then jack up the price for any subsequent fill. Yearly tank rentals are in the neighborhood of $40. I have just completed building my 1500 sq ft dream garage and am in the process of making it livable in the winter months. I plan on staying here for many years so I think purchasing my own tank will save me $ in the long run.

Where is a good place to locate a 100gal tank and a regulator? What are some of the maintenance concerns when owning your own equipment? What certifications/inspections are required on a monthly/yearly basis? Sorry if my questions are basic, but my home is 100% electric, and I have never delt with propane suppliers before.

 

[Franz©]

What are some of the maintenance concerns when owning your own equipment?
You may want to paint the tank every 10 years or so depending on how well the original powder coating lasts.

What certifications/inspections are required on a monthly/yearly basis?

The tank is certified when you buy it, and since it won't be going down the road, after it's delivered no additional certification is necessary.
When you buy gas from a new vendor the vendor will generally conduct an inspection to cover his *** with his insurance carrier.

Depending on where you live, the municipality may have additional requirements. Follow them the same way the gas company does, ignore them. Since propane is an interstate shipped comodity, local regulations don't really amount to squatt.

There is a Propane Gas Association in every state, and most have web sites. All State Associations work at being helpful.

You also need to be aware there is a lower price for propane delivered to the customer owned tank than for the same propane delivered to a company owned tank. You will need to negotiate, and you should educate yourself on propane to negotiate well.
A 100 gal liquid tank won't get you a lot of discount, compared to a 250 gal or 500 gal tank.

 

[crxmotorsports]

you should educate yourself on propane to negotiate well.

A 100 gal liquid tank won't get you a lot of discount, compared to a 250 gal or 500 gal tank.

Educate in what respect? I believe from your statements that there is an obvious benefit in buying in bulk than in small quantities. From what I can tell there is also benefit to buying during "off peak" times of year (summer). As a side note I cannot believe how crazy electric is per KWH in Cali!
I was under the assumption that a ~100Gal tank could be placed directly against the building and anything larger requires a 10' distance from property lines and structures. The area behind my shop has several mature trees that I do not want to disturb by buring a large tank, and I do not want a huge tank hanging out above ground. Thanks for the feedback.

 

[Hades12]

From what I can tell there is also benefit to buying during "off peak" times of year (summer).

Prices can spike up in the Hotest part of the summer. Lots of Peak Generating sites use Propane/NG as the power source.

 

[Franz©]

Thank your politicians in CaliFoolLand for the electric prices along with the Greenie Weenies. They are the ones that decided no electrons could be made from liquid or solid fuel inside the state borders. Yout present and previous governors allow the situation to continue, and generating companies just over every one of the borders love selling CaliFools electric.

You can find pricing graphs on line that are fairly easy to interpit to determine when the low propane price is in any state.

Don't forget to solidly strap the tank to the building wall in preparation for the next Big Shake, 100 gal tanks are fairly unstable sitting on the base ring.