Propane vs Nat Gas - Costs and Usage

[Jeff F]

I imgagine this has probably been answered here somewhere, but there are so many posts it's hard to search!

I'm putting up a 36x48 pole barn and plan to heat it with a ceiling mounted unit heater. Also planning to insulate the ceiling and walls. In general I would want to keep it above freezing, and turn it up to ~60-65 when I'm working out there in the winter.

My house has natural gas, and I'm looking into what it would take to run a gas line from the house out to the garage... but I expect it to be pricey because of getting the line into the house, and the fact that it's ~200' away. The other option would be to have a propane tank put out at the garage.

From what I've been able to figure, the propane will cost quite a bit for the fuel, but that will be offset by the cost of running the NG line to the barn. What I don't know how to figure out is how much fuel I could expect to use in a season. I live in SE PA, where on average it is above freezing every day and there is about 3 months where the lows (on average) get below freezing.

Anyone in a similar situation that can share how mich fuel they use in a year?

 

[green.bubbly]

Check with a propane supplier, they would probably have some information on that.

 

[ForceFed70]

Personally, I'd use natural gas, but run the numbers and see what you come up with. The delivery of the propane might cost you as much as the propane itself.

My parents had their house setup with a propane tank for backup heat source. They worked out a deal where they got the tank for free if they signed a contract with the supplier. Eventually, the supplier came and took the tank back because they wern't buying enough propane.

 

[D.J.]

Delivery companies are in the business to make money just as any small business. Suppliers must sellproduct to make money, I know of no companies who set aux tanks forbackup for natural gas systems, money loosing proposition.
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[jhelrey]

You may laugh but in floor heating!!!!

It is really great as the heat rises.

 

[bonneyman]

Another thing you might consider is the source of each. Propane, being an byproduct of petroleum production, is subject to price fluctuations and supply shortages during bad weather, embargos - or anything that affects oil (like the transportation sector). Natural gas, on the other hand, is a seperate, (for the most part) domestic fuel not subject to these forces. Problems with oil don't directly affect natural gas.
I learned about this angle while looking into a natural gas powered house generator. Very little affects the gas supply, other than an earthquake.
Just a thought.

 

[rodnok1]

Natural gas if you can. Propane costs vary too much year to year(or month to month).

 

[fflintstone]

propane will allways cost more to use then natural gas.
running the line is a one time cost. if push came to shove you could put the line in yourself using a shovel.

 

[bochnak]

I would vote for NG. Once hooked up, the supply is endless versus having a tank taking up space and keeping track of having it filled, ect.

I rented a trencher for my 120' run. Trencher rental $200, line and fittings $120-150, guy to make the meter and garage connection $125, and a Saturday worth of work.

Took less than 1 hr to trench with machine.

 

[hammlm]

I'm right there with you in Chester County. A bit north of Kennet, though.

I think for us it's all about insulation. I don't have a pole barn, but have a garage attached to the house that's slightly smaller than yours (28 x46) and definitely a lower ceiling. 2x6 walls (R-19), tyvex, lots of caulk, insulated man doors and garage doors and R-30 ceiling with conditioned living space above. I use a 75K BTU BigMaxx on LP (no NG connections out in NW Chesco). I bought my 500 gallon tank because I want to be able to buy my propane from anyone and not be tied to the Lessor of the tank. For the last two years, I've kept the stat in the Garage @ 59*. Seriously, I barely notice the incremental costs to keep the garage heated. I have not been able to tell the differential in my Bill, but I fill the 500 gallon tank up about every 18months and that's running 2 Gas Furnaces and the Big Maxx (my whole house is pretty well insulated!).

So, I agree with most of the advice above --- trench it and connect it to NG because it will "always" be cheaper per BTU than LP. You'll recover the investment, quicker if you do it yourself. You won't have to "shop" for best prices.

But, if you can't get the line out there, LP will work. I'd suggest buying your tank. Prices from different places around here vary widely.

 

[Jeff F]

I definately prefer NG for all the reasons stated above-- cost, convienece, no tank, etc. I'm just trying to get an idea of what the cost difference would be. If the LP is an extra $100 per winter it might be hard to justify putting in the NG line... but at this point I don't know the cost of either!

 

[SLOCOBRAR]

i finally laid a nat. gas line to my shed. propane last fall. propane cost 4 times as much .

 

[FThera]

Check what you will pay per therm of natual gas and per gallon of propane. A therm of natural gas gives you 100,000 btu's. A gallon of propane gives 91,700 btu's. Then do the math. In my world natural is less than half the cost of propane.

 

[gophergrove]

First week of Sept we filled our 1000 gal LP tank for $1.47/gal. NG not available for us so cannot speak to that price. We always try to fill once per year in August/early Sept to get the lowest price but you always run the risk of needing another fill in the spring when the price is higher - thankfully we've only had to do that once or twice in 12 years. Whole house runs on propane.

 

[D.J.]

But have you guys really figured out what that NG is costing you in the summer when they have the "transportation charges on it and the pipeline is in the ground all year long?
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[HoosierBuddy]

But have you guys really figured out what that NG is costing you in the summer when they have the "transportation charges on it and the pipeline is in the ground all year long?

The OP stated that they already had natural gas service to their house. They are already then paying their monthly customer fee for natural gas service. Additional charges would only apply if you had the gas company install a second meter for your garage.

Phil

 

[DzNuts]

How deep does a buried NG line have to be? Curious on how feasible it is to do with a shovel.

 

[HoosierBuddy]

How deep does a buried NG line have to be? Curious on how feasible it is to do with a shovel.

I'm not an expert on the national fuel code. Hopefully someone that is will chime in.

If it were plastic gas line before the meter, your gas company would be required to bury that with at least 18-inches of cover. I would suggest that is a pretty good depth to shoot for. If you source a couple of the premade anodeless service risers they use on the ends of their service lines, 18-inches of cover will make them come out of the ground about right.

You can do it with a shovel in decent dirt...but it's real work.

Got any teenage boys? A couple of them would come in handy...and before you start, don't forget to call 811 for utility locates.

Phil

 

[tdkkart]

Here's a recent cost comparison chart:
http://erpud.com/comparison.htm


Those of you on propane in midwest farm areas, call around before you buy this fall as there may be some deals. At least in our area the farmers did not have to dry corn as much, which means they used much less propane than usual this year, there's gonna be some deals available.

 

[LuckyRugger]

I'd go with NG, you pay for what you've used, with propane you are buying the fuel before you use it. You typically get more BTU out of a unit of NG versus Propane. NG is safer, rises and has a smell and propane is heavier than air thus will be lower to the ground where you are most likely have a spark or flame.

18" is the minimum for NG in my area, and 36" is the maximum. Your local plumbing supply company should have some yellow plastic. You need to size your pipe based on the maximum consumption at your barn, then determine the length of the pipe from your meter. Your NG meter should be reducing the pressure to about 7"WC. I did some calculations for my buddy and we ended up running 1.125" yellow plastic to his barn about 125' from his meter.

ForceFred70 - I know where I live you can't have two sources of fuel to your home, the NG supplier can remove their meter and service line.

 

[rasit]

My house has natural gas, and I'm looking into what it would take to run a gas line from the house out to the garage... but I expect it to be pricey because of getting the line into the house, and the fact that it's ~200' away. The other option would be to have a propane tank put out at the garage.

Don't even consider propane if NG is available, 200' isn't that far. First thing would be to ask PECO what it takes for a separate line from the main to the garage with it's own meter and account/bill. If they bite on that you may be suprised that they will foot the costs up to the new meter. If not I would still be running a new line for NG instead of propane. In the long run it is the right choice for reasons already mentioned. Between getting/leasing a tank and paying the higher price for propane you will be out $$$$'s in a few years....think long term.

 

[Jeff F]

Well, I talked to several plumbers to get quotes on the job. I had them quoting putting in a water line and a gas line at the same time; so far I only have rec'd 2 quotes back, and they both came in around $3500 without the trenching, but including the tie-in work inside the house. I had one of them break it down into sections, and just to stub in the gas line when they were already doing the water would be $2000 of it. Now, this was from a plumber that had recommended switching to a high pressure gas meter and quoted a 3/4" HP line... but that seems like a lot! How much should the gas line itself cost?

 

[royalton10]

Make sure you call your NG supplier. At 200 feet you need to make sure the pipe getting there is big enough. They can tell you that. Also check that your meter can handle the volume while you have them on the phone. I think the meter should have a tag that indicates cubic foot hour (CFH). Tell them the BTU on each furnace for house and shop.

They will also tell you the depth needed. Some utilties measure depth from top of pipe. So if you only trench 18" and they want 18" from top of pipe, you will be too shallow. Can you spell "hand shovel?"

Enjoy your heat.

 

[GTPaul]

I can tell you the cost of Propane will eat you alive. I had Natural gas most of my life and moved to VA 10 years ago. No Natural Gas and propane cost drove me to distraction. We started a move to KY 5 years ago and paid a premium for a lot with Natural gas. Best money I spent.

I Made a mistake and did not plan to heat so did not run Natural Gas to the remote garage. Just finished our move here and have added Natural gas to that garage. We had to add a run to the remote garage it was a 250' line to the new garage is was less than $1200 including trench. We found a guy that does just gas line work. We found him to be good,quick and reasonable. I am going to use a take out house furnace, and have the shop Air Conditioned also. I use the shop to store and work on Drag race car and store a pretty good size enclosed trailer.

I just had blown in insulation that really does a nice job. It is a bit messy but results were out standing. We are going to put OSB over it and finish with Metal.

Regards

Paul

If you want photos of the insulation send me an e-mail.

[email protected][email protected]

 

[truckman5000]

Those prices seem high to me. And your in a different area than me.
Plumbing rates are more expensive here. But around here, for a company to come out with a truck and two guys, the cost to you is anywere; $700-1,000a day. Parts to do the work your talking about "cost" me alot less than "you" would buy it for. But id price the job for material cost to "you" plus 2 days. Because there not trenching. The job shouldnt take more than a day to rough a gas line in and tie into the house. Extra day laybor quoted in just incase.
Theres about $1000 in parts and 2 days laybor at 1,000 a day, thats 3000 total. You should be around 2-2,500. Especially if your trenching.
Hope this helps, 3,500 seems way high unless the job is a nightmare.

 

[s_ontario]

Well, I talked to several plumbers to get quotes on the job. I had them quoting putting in a water line and a gas line at the same time; so far I only have rec'd 2 quotes back, and they both came in around $3500 without the trenching, but including the tie-in work inside the house. I had one of them break it down into sections, and just to stub in the gas line when they were already doing the water would be $2000 of it. Now, this was from a plumber that had recommended switching to a high pressure gas meter and quoted a 3/4" HP line... but that seems like a lot! How much should the gas line itself cost?

3500 for 200' ?

damn i put in 1 1/2" line last year 200' i saved $3075 thanks i feel great thats with two standoffs

 

[Alaric.H]

I would go down to where all the labors hang out and rent a few to dig for the day may cost 150-200$ to get r done. I connections are easy it is only 5psi black pipe and yellow tape plus gas leak detector juice and you are there I did it in mine and I am not the sharpest tool in the shed.

 

[Stinger]

Here is a 3 page thread on my dilemma (very similar) and what I decided (LP).

http://www.garagejournal.com/forum/showthread.php?t=46140

The calculations of total cost and years to payoff when factoring in the cost to run the NG line are on page 2...

 

[LuckyRugger]

I'm sure you don't need HP gas. I work at a utility and I know at our utility we won't supply you HP unless your equipment requires it. If you do need a different meter or HP they will charge you for it, it may be cheaper to have a new service installed with a gas meter from your utility than to run it from your house. You may also be able to purchase the yellow plastic pipe from your utility with fused fittings. I'd be more than willing to let you know what size pipe to run, but I'm sure 1-1/8" will be sufficient. If you run yellow plastic, make sure you put some copper wire in the trench as well so you can locate it in the future if needed.