To avoid these ads, REGISTER NOW!

proto or sk for weekend use?

matemike

Well-known member
Joined
Feb 8, 2015
Messages
211
Location
Brazoria, TX
If you end up becoming brand loyal (it's easy to do without really even noticing it) I believe Proto has a much larger selection of all types of tools. Ever use a Proto tool box? That alone would convince you of their quality and usability.
 
To avoid these ads, REGISTER NOW!

Loscaldazar

Well-known member
Joined
Feb 23, 2013
Messages
2,385
The point is not to illustrate the 'best solution' but to highlight that the problem you are denying exists. The broach shapes of box wrenches matter for fastener access. You cannot simply dismiss people when they point that out. The flush fastener friendly box ends come in 15 degree offsets, so that is no the issue.

The real issue is whether or not these problems show up in your workflow. Some people work with flush or maybe more often semi-flush or partially recessed fasteners. So they are very aware of the limitations of box-end broaching. Brand X,Y,Z may not all work as well for semi-flush placements, and rather than having duplicate sets its sometime better to invest in the tool with wider (more reliable) range of applications.

As far as I can tell the SK shape is just brand identity--its not an engineering solution--you can see this as it was carried over into their latest ratcheting wenches.

On the topic of ratcheting wrenches, most people are familiar of course with the inability to use them in many places because of the shape of the broach is much closer to SK type combos.

I'm not dismissing anyone, I'm providing pictures and measurements to say the criticisms being made by several aren't necessarily accurate or appropriate (especially in terms of who the OP is, and that he is looking for occasional use tools).

You're right that the Facom wrench would be able to get where the SK could not. It also would get where a Snap On, Proto, or pretty much any combination wrench would not be able to get. There is no other combination wrench (besides that nicely picked out Facom) I know of that would be able to get at recessed fasteners is what I am trying to show. Again, the design of the Facom wrench is similar to the Snap On DBE wrench you posted a picture to, not most combination wrenches. Combination wrenches have the handle beam meet the middle of the box end, making it useless to reach recessed fasteners. The Facom engineers obviously noticed this, and changed their wrenches so that the beam meets at the top of the box end, allowing it to have greater reach in terms of depth for the removal of recessed fasteners. However, since nearly every other (if not all other) combination wrenches use the design where the beam meets in the middle of the box, it's a test that Proto, Snap On, Wright, etc would also fail. If you want to prove that the Facom wrenches can do something the SK can't, I'd totally agree with you. But that also applies to every other readily available wrench we in the US can buy.

Re-read the section I wrote about how much depth a Snap On combination wrench would have to access a recessed fastener. For a 14MM wrench, having 2MM of depth to get to a fastener is not enough to be able to successfully remove a 14mm nut/bolt, unless it was already loose (you'll round off the very top portion of the nut/bolt). Evaluating a combination wrench on how well it removes recessed fasteners is like evaluating a rifle on how well it does with duck hunting. They were never designed or intended to removed recessed fasteners (at least with the exception of that Facom you posted).

The biggest issue with ratcheting wrenches is not the shape of the broach (broaching is the punching of the box end, has nothing to do with how the box end is attached to the handle beam), it's the diameter of the head. A 14MM gearwrench has a 26MM diameter head (72T), while a SK or Snap On 14MM non ratcheting combination wrench have a 21MM head (measurements taken from each companies' respective catalog). That extra diameter of the ratcheting wrench is what doesn't allow it to fit. The SK and Snap On have the same diameter thickness in the broached area.

Futhermore, I attached some photos that show the taper from the beam to the box on the Snap On High Performance box end wrenches. You can see that those taper sections are also quite thick and wide (just like the SK), but yet, as you admitted, these are the best wrenches for a recessed fastener. That taper looks awfully like the SK from the top being very wide! But again, it's not the width of the tapered section, it's how much the box end sticks out down below the beam the determines how good it is at reaching recessed fasteners, and pretty much every combination wrench has next to no stick out below the beam (sorry, 2MM just isn't adequate to remove a fastener on a 14MM wrench, Snap On Fails that test too).

Ultimately, the issue is that only wrenches that have the beam join with the top of the box end are good for removing recessed fasteners. Those are the only wrenches that have enough depth in the box end heads to reach down to get those fasteners. That leaves the Facom combination wrenches or various brands of High Performance DBE wrench (Snap On, Nepros, Genius, Mac, and a few others). The Facom you showed me is the only combination wrench I've seen designed in this manner, and every other combination wrench would fail this recessed fastener test, not just an SK.

Cliff Notes: People say SK are bad because they wouldn't be able this particular task, when pretty much every alternative brand of combination wrench would also be unable to the same task.

*On a side note, in the photo from the Facom brochure, I'm not sure why they wouldn't just use a socket instead of a wrench for those photos. There may be a point about caring around less tools, but it's all hypothetical arguments at that point.

Plus, the reason for the SK taper from beam to box is because the offset is forged into the wrench, not forged straight and then bent separately like a lot of brands.*
 

Attachments

  • 2016-06-20 03.13.01 pm.jpg
    2016-06-20 03.13.01 pm.jpg
    8.5 KB · Views: 27
  • 2016-06-20 03.13.24 pm.jpg
    2016-06-20 03.13.24 pm.jpg
    10 KB · Views: 25
  • 2016-06-20 03.17.45 pm.jpg
    2016-06-20 03.17.45 pm.jpg
    17.8 KB · Views: 24

XxToolAholicxX

Well-known member
Joined
May 28, 2014
Messages
1,449
Location
SF **** Bay Northern California
They are both excellent tools... I dealt with both on warranty issues and S-K tools made it pain free me and sent me rebuild kits with no questions asked where proto wanted me to send the old parts and they might send me a new rebuild kit...
 

DMAR

Well-known member
Joined
May 12, 2012
Messages
266
OP, you really can't go wrong with either SK or Proto, both nice quality. If I had to chose between the two, I'd go with Proto. IME, they offer a little better fit and finish. Not sure how Proto is with warranty, I've never had to warranty one of their tools...
 

Davefr

Well-known member
Joined
Jan 7, 2010
Messages
11,830
Location
OR
They are both excellent tools... I dealt with both on warranty issues and S-K tools made it pain free me and sent me rebuild kits with no questions asked where proto wanted me to send the old parts and they might send me a new rebuild kit...

Assuming the buyer cares about warranty, this is the troubling issue with Proto's warranty:

"Distributors of record must act as a return agent."

http://www.protoindustrial.com/en/support/Pages/Warranty.aspx

I know some guys have had success just mailing in defective tools but Proto's "official" warranty does not provide that option nor do they even publish their mailing address.

GJ members that have tried finding a co-operative "distributer of record" usually ended up wasting lots of time just getting the runaround. Proto is setup as an industrial brand vs. consumer/DIYer.
 

SantaAna12

Well-known member
Joined
Mar 1, 2012
Messages
1,091
I think you will get more weekend warrior value from SK.
That said, I would buy Proto for the most part.

Good choices to have.
 
To avoid these ads, REGISTER NOW!

sk farmer

Well-known member
Joined
Mar 4, 2009
Messages
5,557
Location
nd
I'm not dismissing anyone, I'm providing pictures and measurements to say the criticisms being made by several aren't necessarily accurate or appropriate (especially in terms of who the OP is, and that he is looking for occasional use tools).

You're right that the Facom wrench would be able to get where the SK could not. It also would get where a Snap On, Proto, or pretty much any combination wrench would not be able to get. There is no other combination wrench (besides that nicely picked out Facom) I know of that would be able to get at recessed fasteners is what I am trying to show. Again, the design of the Facom wrench is similar to the Snap On DBE wrench you posted a picture to, not most combination wrenches. Combination wrenches have the handle beam meet the middle of the box end, making it useless to reach recessed fasteners. The Facom engineers obviously noticed this, and changed their wrenches so that the beam meets at the top of the box end, allowing it to have greater reach in terms of depth for the removal of recessed fasteners. However, since nearly every other (if not all other) combination wrenches use the design where the beam meets in the middle of the box, it's a test that Proto, Snap On, Wright, etc would also fail. If you want to prove that the Facom wrenches can do something the SK can't, I'd totally agree with you. But that also applies to every other readily available wrench we in the US can buy.

Re-read the section I wrote about how much depth a Snap On combination wrench would have to access a recessed fastener. For a 14MM wrench, having 2MM of depth to get to a fastener is not enough to be able to successfully remove a 14mm nut/bolt, unless it was already loose (you'll round off the very top portion of the nut/bolt). Evaluating a combination wrench on how well it removes recessed fasteners is like evaluating a rifle on how well it does with duck hunting. They were never designed or intended to removed recessed fasteners (at least with the exception of that Facom you posted).

The biggest issue with ratcheting wrenches is not the shape of the broach (broaching is the punching of the box end, has nothing to do with how the box end is attached to the handle beam), it's the diameter of the head. A 14MM gearwrench has a 26MM diameter head (72T), while a SK or Snap On 14MM non ratcheting combination wrench have a 21MM head (measurements taken from each companies' respective catalog). That extra diameter of the ratcheting wrench is what doesn't allow it to fit. The SK and Snap On have the same diameter thickness in the broached area.

Futhermore, I attached some photos that show the taper from the beam to the box on the Snap On High Performance box end wrenches. You can see that those taper sections are also quite thick and wide (just like the SK), but yet, as you admitted, these are the best wrenches for a recessed fastener. That taper looks awfully like the SK from the top being very wide! But again, it's not the width of the tapered section, it's how much the box end sticks out down below the beam the determines how good it is at reaching recessed fasteners, and pretty much every combination wrench has next to no stick out below the beam (sorry, 2MM just isn't adequate to remove a fastener on a 14MM wrench, Snap On Fails that test too).

Ultimately, the issue is that only wrenches that have the beam join with the top of the box end are good for removing recessed fasteners. Those are the only wrenches that have enough depth in the box end heads to reach down to get those fasteners. That leaves the Facom combination wrenches or various brands of High Performance DBE wrench (Snap On, Nepros, Genius, Mac, and a few others). The Facom you showed me is the only combination wrench I've seen designed in this manner, and every other combination wrench would fail this recessed fastener test, not just an SK.

Cliff Notes: People say SK are bad because they wouldn't be able this particular task, when pretty much every alternative brand of combination wrench would also be unable to the same task.

*On a side note, in the photo from the Facom brochure, I'm not sure why they wouldn't just use a socket instead of a wrench for those photos. There may be a point about caring around less tools, but it's all hypothetical arguments at that point.

Plus, the reason for the SK taper from beam to box is because the offset is forged into the wrench, not forged straight and then bent separately like a lot of brands.*
well said sir, but your logic will be lost on him. he simply hates sk wrenches. nothing wrong with that if he would admit it but he goes on and on about hypothetical situations that most people don't have issues with. every wrench will have it's quirks that may make it work not as well as another but they will still get the job done. i know, i have at least 10 brands of combo wrench sets and my favorites are not picked by the box end access, they are picked by the handle shape, balance and feel. but then again what the hell do i know.
 

The Fall

Well-known member
Joined
Mar 20, 2016
Messages
419
Location
Austin, TX
I'm in an autotech program so I get the Snap-On student discount. Of course, I use it. I've purchased ratchets and metric wrenches. The only other tool company I regularly buy new from -- other than Klein and old-stock USA Craftsman -- is S-K. The long SAE combo wrenches I picked up from them are great and the flex-head 3/8" ratchet is also very nice.

I like S-K and I support them because their prices are reasonable, the quality is good, and they're made in the USA. If you get combo wrenches, get the long ones. They're about the size of Snap-On's regular ones. You probably don't need another set the size of Craftsman's raised panels.

The poster who mentioned the clearance issue with the Snap-On box end is making a great point. Sometimes Snap-On makes just the right wrench for tight quarters.
 

The Fall

Well-known member
Joined
Mar 20, 2016
Messages
419
Location
Austin, TX
Also, I really started going into pawnshops after reading about the scores in loose bins on this forum. They'll want almost full retail for the truck brands. Proto or Proto Challenger they practically give away. It's amazing.
 

ibedayank

Well-known member
Joined
Feb 2, 2011
Messages
2,619
Location
Columbia TN
Also, I really started going into pawnshops after reading about the scores in loose bins on this forum. They'll want almost full retail for the truck brands. Proto or Proto Challenger they practically give away. It's amazing.

don't forget blackhawk
 
To avoid these ads, REGISTER NOW!
Top Bottom