Pulled the trigger on a SawStop purchase

[HoosierBuddy]

I kept getting pop up ads from SawStop about $350 off their professional series table saws.

Called my local (40 miles away) dealer and he can have one in like I want in 1 to 2 weeks so I can pick it up and avoid delivery charges.

The three things that finally got me over the hump and putting in the order were:

1. Despite replacing the arbor bearings on my 40 year old Craftsman tablesaw, it still sounds like a cement mixer between when I hit the off switch and when the blade quits turning. Maybe it's the motor bearings....but what I need to do is take it out of service, correctly diagnose it, and either repair and sell it or sell it "as is". But, seems like the power-tool-gods are pointing out a saw I paid $350 for 40 years ago doesn't owe me anything anymore.

2. My kid gets a magazine monthly about advances in medical care. Last month they had a great story about what amounted to a bionic hand that was built and fitted on a man to replace his thumb and 2 fingers that he lost in a table saw accident (board kicked back, hit him in the forehead knocking him out, and he fell forward with his hand ending up in the blade.) These SawStops are expensive, even on sale, but I cannot imagine what a bionic hand costs. The article didn't mention a price.

3. My 2 oldest kids got married (one last year, one this year) and one of these days, in theory, I will have grand-kids in my wood shop. Having a 40 year newer saw with an auto stop feature will be a plus.

Anyway....I'm not proselytizing that everyone needs to go out and buy one, but I'm looking forward to getting mine in here in a couple of weeks.

 

[Kurt4440]

Good for you and your family.
Post some pictures when you get it set up.

 

[Shoreline_]

Awesome. My brother always wanted one. I heard they are good quality

 

[Lassen Forge]

Great device as a backup to common sense, but DO NOT rely on it 100% to get the blade stopped if your hand comes in contact. We had one at work, the guy who ran our carpenter shop put his hand on the table as the saw was winding down, and the saw stop worked just good enough so as to not cut 1/2 of his hand off semi. Spent a year and change with a metal spider wen and many many pins in the hand and wrist, he has about 80% movement in it (20+ years later), but it would have been far less had the damned thing stopped that blade dead.

 

[loganb]

I expect you'll love it. I have a 3 HP unit, before had a late 80's/early 90's vintage 3 HP Unisaw and the sawstop is a big improvement even without the safety feature. Post pics when you get it!

 

[mepstein]

When I buy a table saw, it will be a sawstop or one with similar tech. My wife used to work surgical shock trauma/surgical intensive care. Accidents can happen to anyone, even people who are really familiar and experienced with tools and machines. I’d rather have a tech that stacks the odds on my side.

 

[no704]

Get a reload kit too. I’ve heard of some woods, especially when green can cause a false trip.

 

[Steve_P]

Smart choice. I have a friend with one.

An ER visit will cost 10X more than the premium that you paid for the Saw Stop. And then any surgery on top of that. Of course, as said, don't assume anything as far as protection; treat it like any table saw and assume the worst.

I don't currently have a table saw, but I've used them quite a few times; no tool has surprised me as much as it- as far as jerking my hand, or doing something weird, when I never expected it. Supposedly table saws and chain saws are the two most likely tools to send you to the ER.

 

[vavet]

Congrats!

 

[Rinspeed]

We have one at the shop and they are very high quality. One sad issue is if you do happen to trip it the brake assembly is destroyed and of course the blade as well. Much better than cutting your finger off I guess.

 

[Notgrownup]

They are nice but I doubt I will ever have one. Congrats on it, they say the cut quality is at the top.

 

[liliysdad]

I am not a woodworker by any means, but based on their business tactics SawStop would be the very last manufacturer I would buy from. They seem to be very nice pieces of machinery, though.

 

[HoosierBuddy]

I am not a woodworker by any means, but based on their business tactics SawStop would be the very last manufacturer I would buy from. They seem to be very nice pieces of machinery, though.

The founder invented the technology, patented it, then tried to license it to every table saw maker that would meet with him. They all said “no”. He started SawStop to build his own saws and has vigorously defended the patents in court.

 

[dnschmidt]

I am not a woodworker by any means, but based on their business tactics SawStop would be the very last manufacturer I would buy from. They seem to be very nice pieces of machinery, though.

Their business tactics are the same as every other for profit corporation. Make as much money off you your patents as humanly possible. 3M is a perfect example of this as well as many others. It's capitalism pal. You can love it or hate it but it's here to stay.

 

[liliysdad]

The founder invented the technology, patented it, then tried to license it to every table saw maker that would meet with him. They all said “no”. He started SawStop to build his own saws and has vigorously defended the patents in court.

While simultaneously lobbying for government mandate of his technology.

Don’t forget that part…

 

[liliysdad]

Their business tactics are the same as every other for profit corporation. Make as much money off you your patents as humanly possible. 3M is a perfect example of this as well as many others. It's capitalism pal. You can love it or hate it but it's here to stay.

I have zero issue with making money…. I have a problem with trying to get the government to make others pay you money.

Capitalism would dictate that if your product was that valuable, the market would ensure its success without undue influence. Pal.

 

[tarmy]

Good call OP…

I had a poker buddy that just cut 2 fingers off a week ago…he is about 70 and owns a construction company. His explanation says it all about tools…he got complacent.

Chain saws, table saws and all kinds of other shop tools can… and do maim and injure if not respected.

 

[HoosierBuddy]

While simultaneously lobbying for government mandate of his technology.

Don’t forget that part…

While the rest of the industry lobbied incessantly against them claiming that despite a significant number of consumers becoming amputees each year, table saws are “Safe Enough”.

Typically what happens to inventors is entrenched industry says “no thanks” to their ideas, waits a few years, incorporates the ideas without compensation and spends the little guy into the ground during patent litigation. In this cas the inventor had the audacity to start making their own product and then sued the pants off anyone they could prove attempted to infringe (Bosch).

That’s bare knuckles business with a big side of F U lobbying to the Consumer Protection Agency. That’s big-boy-biz-200 level.

In the end, the patents will all expire and all of the other players will come out with their own blade stop designs. They’ll undercut SawStop and put them into bankruptcy.

That’s big-biz with a side of “so sorry/not sorry”. It’s not pretty, but that’s how it goes. It’s our system.

 

[Hakeem]

I have zero issue with making money…. I have a problem with trying to get the government to make others pay you money.

Bingo. If the sawstop guy wants to make his patent open and available to all—or even sold the components at-cost to other manufacturers, I would “tolerate” a mandate. Lobbying the government to regulate the market so as to give your for-profit company a monopoly? Thats ********.

 

[loganb]

Yall realize that Sawstop is owned by Festool now?

And if you don't like their efforts for lobbying in their interest, don't look up the field of lobbying....it happens in every single industry.

 

[neophyte]

While the rest of the industry lobbied incessantly against them claiming that despite a significant number of consumers becoming amputees each year, table saws are “Safe Enough”.

Typically what happens to inventors is entrenched industry says “no thanks” to their ideas, waits a few years, incorporates the ideas without compensation and spends the little guy into the ground during patent litigation. In this cas the inventor had the audacity to start making their own product and then sued the pants off anyone they could prove attempted to infringe (Bosch).

That’s bare knuckles business with a big side of F U lobbying to the Consumer Protection Agency. That’s big-boy-biz-200 level.

In the end, the patents will all expire and all of the other players will come out with their own blade stop designs. They’ll undercut SawStop and put them into bankruptcy.

That’s big-biz with a side of “so sorry/not sorry”. It’s not pretty, but that’s how it goes. It’s our system.

Capacitance safety “switches” to turn off machinery, in the case of blade contact, existed prior to “the inventor”, “inventing” the “Sawstop” technology.
Other safety features found on the Sawstop saws, also existed prior to his “invention”, and were found on European made saws, such as the Inca machines from Switzerland/France.

The “inventor of Sawstop” also seems to have been unaware of saws that used some various similar features, before “inventing” his saw, which makes me wonder how crappy a researcher and patent attorney he was, since actually knowing what exists, and has been either patented or put into production, is sort of the whole point of a patent attorney.
Either that, or he knew there were conflicting inventions and patents, and just feigned ignorance.
Jamming a piece of aluminum into the blade was likely the only real “novel idea”, and it’s the idea most people hate about the saws.

However, this is not supposed yo be a Sawstop hate thread,
OP is just happy about his purchase.
May he use the saw joyfully, and only accidentally trip the safety mechanism once or twice doing something stupid, so he can smile at still having fingers, and be happy with his purchase, but not get dinged too many $, due to excessive use of the safety system.

 

[mike93lx]

Congrats. I've thought about one several times but haven't quite gotten there.

 

[HoosierBuddy]

Capacitance safety “switches” to turn off machinery, in the case of blade contact, existed prior to “the inventor”, “inventing” the “Sawstop” technology.
Other safety features found on the Sawstop saws, also existed prior to his “invention”, and were found on European made saws, such as the Inca machines from Switzerland/France.

The “inventor of Sawstop” also seems to have been unaware of saws that used some various similar features, before “inventing” his saw, which makes me wonder how crappy a researcher and patent attorney he was, since actually knowing what exists, and has been either patented or put into production, is sort of the whole point of a patent attorney.
Either that, or he knew there were conflicting inventions and patents, and just feigned ignorance.
Jamming a piece of aluminum into the blade was likely the only real “novel idea”, and it’s the idea most people hate about the saws.

However, this is not supposed yo be a Sawstop hate thread,
OP is just happy about his purchase.
May he use the saw joyfully, and only accidentally trip the safety mechanism once or twice doing something stupid, so he can smile at still having fingers, and be happy with his purchase, but not get dinged too many $, due to excessive use of the safety system.

Yet they have still managed to successfully defend their patents. Seems like the courts see the facts differently.

And if the saw does end up saving my fingers I’ll be glad that I didn’t use some vague feeling that the company was “mean” or “treating other businesses unfairly” as a reason not to upgrade from my 1980’s Craftsman.

 

[mike93lx]

Yet they have still managed to successfully defend their patents. Seems like the courts see the facts differently.

And if the saw does end up saving my fingers I’ll be glad that I didn’t use some vague feeling that the company was “mean” or “treating other businesses unfairly” as a reason not to upgrade from my 1980’s Craftsman.

The court of Garage Journal knows best

 

[M635_Guy]

I want one. As a guy who has used a table saw a handful of times in the last decade, I can't justify one, but I want one.

Capacitance safety “switches” to turn off machinery, in the case of blade contact, existed prior to “the inventor”, “inventing” the “Sawstop” technology.
Other safety features found on the Sawstop saws, also existed prior to his “invention”, and were found on European made saws, such as the Inca machines from Switzerland/France.

The “inventor of Sawstop” also seems to have been unaware of saws that used some various similar features, before “inventing” his saw, which makes me wonder how crappy a researcher and patent attorney he was, since actually knowing what exists, and has been either patented or put into production, is sort of the whole point of a patent attorney.
Either that, or he knew there were conflicting inventions and patents, and just feigned ignorance.
Jamming a piece of aluminum into the blade was likely the only real “novel idea”, and it’s the idea most people hate about the saws.

Yet they have still managed to successfully defend their patents. Seems like the courts see the facts differently.

And if the saw does end up saving my fingers I’ll be glad that I didn’t use some vague feeling that the company was “mean” or “treating other businesses unfairly” as a reason not to upgrade from my 1980’s Craftsman.

I love it when people who don't understand patents and IP law make sweeping statements. [/s]

 

[Kurt4440]

3. My 2 oldest kids got married (one last year, one this year) and one of these days, in theory, I will have grand-kids in my wood shop. Having a 40 year newer saw with an auto stop feature will be a plus.

As I mentioned before, I am glad you purchased a new saw for you and your family members.
The notion that you would not purchase a table saw that clearly has a leg up on safety compared to other saws, due to some legal issues between rival companies is intriguing. You clearly stated that you plan on spending shop time with your children and future grandchildren and want to keep them safe.
I could not forego my own safety, nor, the safety of my family members when products are available that essentially act as a safety net when things go sideways.

Good job grandpa to be.

 

[liliysdad]

I want one. As a guy who has used a table saw a handful of times in the last decade, I can't justify one, but I want one.





I love it when people who don't understand patents and IP law make sweeping statements. [/s]

I have ZERO issue with the tech, their patents, or their fierce defense thereof. I think it’s cool technology.

Where I have problems is when the very same folks who so fiercely defend their IP and patents are, at the same time, attempting to force other manufacturers to adopt the same, or similar, technology through onerous bureaucracy.


Let the product stand on its own two feet. If the market wants it, the market will buy it, and the other manufacturers will be forced to keep up or be left behind.

 

[LOW1]

If you ignore the Sawstop safety feature you still have a very good but expensive table saw. There are many who believe that woodworking tools are simply not as good as they once were. Sawstop makes a very good alternative to this trend. The safety feature is a bonus.

When the patent on the safety feature expires Sawstop will still be making a very high quality tool.

 

[Miss the Pontiacs]

3. My 2 oldest kids got married (one last year, one this year) and one of these days, in theory, I will have grand-kids in my wood shop. Having a 40 year newer saw with an auto stop feature will be a plus.

That would probably reason enough for me to make the jump.

 

[Git]

Steve Gass, the inventor of the Saw Stop technology was...... a patent attorney. He tried to get the government to force manufacturers to use his technology and I agree with Liliysdad

As of early 2024, The US Consumer Product Safety Commission is considering a new rule that would mandate AIM (Active Injury Mitigation (i.e. Sawstop tech)) on ALL table saws sold in the US. If that rule passes, SawStop says it will voluntarily "open" its 840 patent early and let other manufacturers copy its AIM technology. (To date, not a single manufacturer has licensed the AIM technology and I believe the '840' patent expires in 2033

SawStop table saws don't have any special features to deal with 'kickbacks' and to me, the best way to avoid any type of amputation - keep your hands and body parts away from the blade. (That is why I bought a European style sliding table saw)

 

[gba2331]

I should have spent the extra $ and bought one instead of my Powermatic, the extra margin of safety is worth it.

 

[gba2331]

Years ago I recall reading some explanation that the manufacturers would not offer sawstop as an option on their saws because that would imply that their non-sawstop saws were NOT safe.

Whether true or not, there are probably numerous reasons behind these decisions whether or not they make sense to others.

 

[neophyte]

Act

Yet they have still managed to successfully defend their patents. Seems like the courts see the facts differently.

And if the saw does end up saving my fingers I’ll be glad that I didn’t use some vague feeling that the company was “mean” or “treating other businesses unfairly” as a reason not to upgrade from my 1980’s Craftsman.

Actually, they didn’t in a few cases.

 

[neophyte]

I want one. As a guy who has used a table saw a handful of times in the last decade, I can't justify one, but I want one.





I love it when people who don't understand patents and IP law make sweeping statements. [/s]

You’re right.
I don’t understand all the fine nuances of US Patent law.

Despite "Winning" its Appeals, Sawstop still denied Type-C Patent Term Adjustment

by Dennis Crouch Sawstop v. Vidal, --- F.4th --- (Fed. Cir. 2022) This is a Patent Term Adjustment (PTA) case. …

patentlyo.com

 

[Firebrick43]

Their business tactics are the same as every other for profit corporation. Make as much money off you your patents as humanly possible. 3M is a perfect example of this as well as many others. It's capitalism pal. You can love it or hate it but it's here to stay.

Very few companies try to enlist the government to force companies to buy your patent, the only one available, at a higher cost than they would make in profit themselves

 

[loganb]

That would probably reson enough for me to make the jump.

It was one of the reasons I jumped to it, only it was for kids not grandkids but same concept. Even discounting the safety device, it's a very well made saw and I've run the Delta/Powermatic/Grizzly competitors and even without the brake still felt it was equivalent or better then all of them.

 

[neophyte]

Years ago I recall reading some explanation that the manufacturers would not offer sawstop as an option on their saws because that would imply that their non-sawstop saws were NOT safe.

Whether true or not, there are probably numerous reasons behind these decisions whether or not they make sense to others.

The ******** who “invented” the technology, was greedy, and careless.
After he “invented” the technology, he tried to license the technology to a number of the major power tool manufacturers, including Black & Decker, and Makita.
B&D found during testing, that the safety device could be accidentally tripped with certain standard building materials, that tablesaws were commonly used for.
This included fooled materials, which can include board standard painted board materials, as well as pressure treated wood, etc.
The “inventor” didn’t realize this might be an issue, because he didn’t teat his saw prototype properly before submitting it, or he didn’t really understand capacitance and how it might react to different materials or with other issues like static electricity.
The “inventor” then hired a capacitance expert to “fix” the issue, and the capacitance expert could not, so “the inventor” then sued the capacitance expert he hired.
In addition, “the inventor”, refused to self indemnify the technology, which would leave any saw manufacturer who licensed the on the hook for legal costs if the technology failed.
In addition, “the inventor”, wanted a high licensing cost, which may have been 8% of list retail price. At the time, most power tools had a “list retail price” that was significantly higher than the common street price. For instance, a Dewalt saw might have had a list retail price of $1,000, but actually sold from common retailers like HD for $500 , because retail price was and is illegal to “fix” and tool discounters would buy in bulk, and sell at minimum profit. This meant that Sawstop might have been earning as much, or more off the sale of saws using the licensed technology, than the power tool retailers were.

Basically, the “inventor” came off as a greedy, litigious @sshole, who wanted too much money, who didn’t want to take responsibility for problems, who didn’t properly test his invention, and who was too stupid to figure out a bunch of the issues himself.
Maybe the possibility of potential lawsuits concerning saws that did not have the technology, occurred to the power tool manufacturers, but I’m guessing the character and personality of the “inventor”, and the issues with the technology were why B&D said “f@ck this”.

 

[M635_Guy]

If you ignore the Sawstop safety feature you still have a very good but expensive table saw. There are many who believe that woodworking tools are simply not as good as they once were. Sawstop makes a very good alternative to this trend. The safety feature is a bonus.

When the patent on the safety feature expires Sawstop will still be making a very high quality tool.

Agree. If I was using a table saw with any consistency I'd have a SawStop. I just got the SkilSaw for $300 to do some stuff, and while I mightily tried to talk myself into the Compact table saw, I couldn't get there for $900.

I realize I'm literally putting a price on my safety, but I'm pretty over-careful when it comes to those things.

Steve Gass, the inventor of the Saw Stop technology was...... a patent attorney. He tried to get the government to force manufacturers to use his technology and I agree with Liliysdad

As of early 2024, The US Consumer Product Safety Commission is considering a new rule that would mandate AIM (Active Injury Mitigation (i.e. Sawstop tech)) on ALL table saws sold in the US. If that rule passes, SawStop says it will voluntarily "open" its 840 patent early and let other manufacturers copy its AIM technology. (To date, not a single manufacturer has licensed the AIM technology and I believe the '840' patent expires in 2033

SawStop table saws don't have any special features to deal with 'kickbacks' and to me, the best way to avoid any type of amputation - keep your hands and body parts away from the blade. (That is why I bought a European style sliding table saw)

I thought it was sooner than that - 2025 or 2026. But I don't follow that stuff much any more.

 

[M635_Guy]

You’re right.
I don’t understand all the fine nuances of US Patent law.

Despite "Winning" its Appeals, Sawstop still denied Type-C Patent Term Adjustment

by Dennis Crouch Sawstop v. Vidal, --- F.4th --- (Fed. Cir. 2022) This is a Patent Term Adjustment (PTA) case. …

patentlyo.com

Tell me what you think that means...


FWIW, patent holders have a duty to aggressively defend their IP, or you risk losing it. In his case, I agree he was reaching and trying to bully the market, but that's what makes you the money.

I'm not saying he's a beautiful person, but people have to make up their mind: You're either OK with patents and what they mean for market access to innovations or you're OK with that kind stuff not being (as) protected and people having less incentive to invent stuff.

Volvo held the patent for seat belts, and licensed it for free. Lenovo invented a better tin solder that used less energy to make electronics and is more reliable and did the same thing. Those are big companies doing something because it's the right thing to do (and the optics don't hurt). The SawStop guy was a guy who knew his window is limited and was going for as much as he could. He might be a dink. My fingers don't care either way.

 

[Git]

Here is what AI says about the 'SawStop 840 patent' (840 = last 3 digits of the patent number)

Some key points about this patent:

1. It was originally filed on March 13, 2002.
2. While patents typically expire 20 years from their filing date, this patent received significant Patent Term Adjustment (PTA) due to delays during the patent prosecution process.
3. The patent office initially granted 305 days of PTA, but SawStop successfully petitioned to have additional time added for delays related to court appeals.
4. As a result, the total PTA for this patent was extended to 4,044 days (over 11 years), pushing the expiration date to April 8, 2033.
5. This particular patent has very broad claims, covering essentially any circular saw that stops within 10 milliseconds of detecting human contact using an electronically triggerable mechanism.