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Pulled the trigger on a SawStop purchase

neophyte

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Steve Gass, the inventor of the Saw Stop technology was...... a patent attorney. He tried to get the government to force manufacturers to use his technology and I agree with Liliysdad

As of early 2024, The US Consumer Product Safety Commission is considering a new rule that would mandate AIM (Active Injury Mitigation (i.e. Sawstop tech)) on ALL table saws sold in the US. If that rule passes, SawStop says it will voluntarily "open" its 840 patent early and let other manufacturers copy its AIM technology. (To date, not a single manufacturer has licensed the AIM technology and I believe the '840' patent expires in 2033

SawStop table saws don't have any special features to deal with 'kickbacks' and to me, the best way to avoid any type of amputation - keep your hands and body parts away from the blade. (That is why I bought a European style sliding table saw)

This.
It should also be pointed out that while very rare, kickback from powered stationary circular saws has caused deaths,
While finger and hand blade contact, usually just removes fingers, or maybe a hand, if that.

The Sawstop tablesaws, except maybe the current really mini recent Festool tablesaw, are not set up for a traditional sliding table, as depicted in this video. (A traditional sliding top design that probably goes back at least 75 years).
 
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neophyte

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Tell me what you think that means...
Gass the “Sawstop Inventor” had various patent claims rejected for being “obvious”, and then hot whinny, because he wanted all the claims in his patent application granted, and not just some of the patent claims.
 

M635_Guy

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Gass the “Sawstop Inventor” had various patent claims rejected for being “obvious”, and then hot whinny, because he wanted all the claims in his patent application granted, and not just some of the patent claims.

You're right. You don't understand the nuances of patent law. (I've spent vast tortured hours locked in rooms with them over a good chunk of my career at one point, and I'm only partially there TBH, but at least I have a fair bit of context. I'm glad I don't do that kind of stuff any more).

That early-2022 ruling changed very little. The company is still pushing hard to expand use of their IP.

Again, I'm not defending it or the guy, but it's silly (IMHO) to be grumped about the guy if the tech is good.

For me, I like the tech, but can't justify it costing triple what a very good (Skil) 10" portable jobsite saw costs and 50% more than the class-leading DeWalt.
 

M635_Guy

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The owner of Grizzly tools tried several times to license the technology for their own saws and was told no every time.
It's funny how often in the past they'd complained about SawStop wanting too much money for the license. Now they're saying SawStop didn't want to license it at all to avoid cannibalizing their own sales.

Honestly, both sound true.
 

johnre

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Congratulations on your purchase, and do enjoy it and use it carefully - it's still a machine that can do damage, and the safety brake system should only be the last resort to protect you when all other precautions have failed.

My SawStop was purchased long before my two grandsons came along, and although they are now aged only four and two, the older one already has quite a fascination for such things. This point in your life might be reached for you sooner than you think.

Now to debunk some of the fear, uncertainty, and doubt that always seems to get sown in such a thread:

We had one at work, the guy who ran our carpenter shop put his hand on the table as the saw was winding down, and the saw stop worked just good enough so as to not cut 1/2 of his hand off semi. Spent a year and change with a metal spider wen and many many pins in the hand and wrist, he has about 80% movement in it (20+ years later), but it would have been far less had the damned thing stopped that blade dead.
But it likely would have been far more injury with a conventional saw, yes?

Get a reload kit too. I’ve heard of some woods, especially when green can cause a false trip.
The wood can be pretested and if it indicates conduction, you can override the brake and use it like a conventional saw.

And this is what it does when you forget to do that test, or it didn't detect enough conduction to indicate a problem. This is from my first-hand experience, along with documentation in their manual, mind you, not an "I heard it on the internet" account.

One sad issue is if you do happen to trip it the brake assembly is destroyed and of course the blade as well.
The cartridge is destroyed, not the entire "brake assembly". Replace the cartridge, and you're good to go.

And if you send the spent cartridge back to SawStop and they determine it was a for-real save, they'll replace it for free.
 
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M635_Guy

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I have ZERO issue with the tech, their patents, or their fierce defense thereof. I think it’s cool technology.

Where I have problems is when the very same folks who so fiercely defend their IP and patents are, at the same time, attempting to force other manufacturers to adopt the same, or similar, technology through onerous bureaucracy.


Let the product stand on its own two feet. If the market wants it, the market will buy it, and the other manufacturers will be forced to keep up or be left behind.
I don't disagree with you, at least in general.

The difference for me between Volvo and their seat belt patents (which became mandated safety) and SawStop's blade-arresting system they want to become mandated is that Volvo didn't monetize it.
 
OP
H

HoosierBuddy

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Volvo didn't monetize it.
Uh....yeah they sorta did. Rather than litigate their patent in every country they did business in, Volvo made the BUSINESS DECISION that they could generate more profits by being magnamous with their patent and then market the **** out of their cars as being the safest on the road. You young guys might not remember this, but they were VERY successful selling cars into the U.S. market by touting how safe they were with respect to other's offerings.

6c7d8f99d335ed6571eab9ddb2556dbf.jpg
 

dnschmidt

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Very few companies try to enlist the government to force companies to buy your patent, the only one available, at a higher cost than they would make in profit themselves
Nobody else does that!!!!! You must be shitting me. Boeing convinced the government that they didn't murder 250 people. The thing that Sawstop invented saves fingers and hands the things the Boeing invents kills people and strands astronauts. All corporations try to manipulate the government. IT'S CALLED LOBBYING. Well, some that are less kind would call it bribery.
 

M635_Guy

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Uh....yeah they sorta did. Rather than litigate their patent in every country they did business in, Volvo made the BUSINESS DECISION that they could generate more profits by being magnamous with their patent and then market the **** out of their cars as being the safest on the road. You young guys might not remember this, but they were VERY successful selling cars into the U.S. market by touting how safe they were with respect to other's offerings.

6c7d8f99d335ed6571eab9ddb2556dbf.jpg
That's kinda my point. It's an indirect thing - they get to enjoy the credibility of being the inventor without having to sue a lot of people and look like they value profit over people's lives. I give them full credit for that and the many other safety innovations they've pioneered. They're also a bit of a quirky company when it comes to their mechanical designs too - their water pump implementation is really interesting - they last nearly forever because instead of a belt it soft-starts on clutch kinda thing, which only requires replacement every 150K.

In general, just because you can license the tech (for free or otherwise) doesn't mean you'll use it as well as who invented it to begin with. The insight on why you did a thing a particular way is often far more subtle and important than people understand and can make a huge difference in the result. That's the way the SawStop dingle could/should have gone about it, but whatever. I've got a very skilled buddy who lost parts of a couple fingers while he was restoring an old boat, and I'm pretty sure he would have had one if it had been available to him at the time. His hand makes me want one.
 

neophyte

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You're right. You don't understand the nuances of patent law. (I've spent vast tortured hours locked in rooms with them over a good chunk of my career at one point, and I'm only partially there TBH, but at least I have a fair bit of context. I'm glad I don't do that kind of stuff any more).

That early-2022 ruling changed very little. The company is still pushing hard to expand use of their IP.

Again, I'm not defending it or the guy, but it's silly (IMHO) to be grumped about the guy if the tech is good.

For me, I like the tech, but can't justify it costing triple what a very good (Skil) 10" portable jobsite saw costs and 50% more than the class-leading DeWalt.
The technology wasn’t “good”.
This was one of the reasons B&D claim to have rejected the technology.
There were too many potential problems,
with the functional use of the technology,
and functional “safe use” of the saws.

B&D is and was highly cost conscious, especially in the USA.
The Sawstop system is inherently expensive if and when the system trips, especially if the user does what they should, and replaces the blade along with the cartridge.
B&D knew and knows, that the system will occasionally “false trip”, either to materials being used that definitely will, or might, cause the sensor to falsely detect flesh.
To prevent this from happening, the safety system has to be “deactivated” for use, which creates an inherently unsafe condition, especially for users used to the safety system.
 
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neophyte

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It's funny how often in the past they'd complained about SawStop wanting too much money for the license. Now they're saying SawStop didn't want to license it at all to avoid cannibalizing their own sales.

Honestly, both sound true.
The owner of Grizzly tools is a woodworker who makes guitars.
He actually seems to give a **** about making and selling decent woodworking tools, even if he tries to do so at a lower cost, with imported machines.
I would also trust the owner of Grizzly far more than the inventor of the Sawstop system.
This also applies to the current owner of Sawstop, Festool.
 

neophyte

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It's funny how often in the past they'd complained about SawStop wanting too much money for the license. Now they're saying SawStop didn't want to license it at all to avoid cannibalizing their own sales.

Honestly, both sound true.
Did you read the article?
Grizzly provided past communications with Sawstop.

“From SawStop’s Steve Gass to Grizzly in July 2011:
We must now be careful to protect that business and provide a return for our investors.
If Grizzly is serious about licensing the SawStop technology, then Grizzly should encourage the Consumer Product Safety Commission (CPSC) to adopt new performance standards for table saws as soon as possible.

“In September 2011, Gass, in a reply to Grizzly, explains SawStop’s opposition to licensing:”

Now that SawStop is established, any royalties Grizzly might pay would be less than what SawStop could earn by selling the same number of saws itself, and therefore, as I have explained, a license at the present time is far more challenging because of the risk it creates to SawStop’s business. This, of course, changes should the CPSC implement a requirement for table saws to include active injury mitigation systems. Should that happen, we have said we would offer non-discriminatory licenses to all manufacturers.

“In November 2011, Grizzly responded with:”

Every letter we have received from you has answers and overtones which imply that you have no intention of licensing your technology to us.


“Grizzly’s CEO in August 2023:”

I am inquiring about the opportunity to License the SawStop technology so that we can incorporate it into some of our table saw models.
“SawStop’s CEO (also the head of Festool in North America) responded with:”

I don’t see a licensing agreement in our near future.

Basically, the supposed willingness and testimony of Sawstop to license and allow other power tool manufacturers,
both in the past, and the present,
to license and use the Sawstop patents, seems to be and have been bullsh!t.
 

M635_Guy

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The technology wasn’t “good”.
This was one of the reasons B&D claim to have rejected the technology.
There were too many potential problems,
with the functional use of the technology,
and functional “safe use” of the saws.

B&D is and was highly cost conscious, especially in the USA.
The Sawstop system is inherently expensive if and when the system trips, especially if the user does what they should, and replaces the blade along with the cartridge.
B&D knew and knows, that the system will occasionally “false trip”, either to materials being used that definitely will, or might, cause the sensor to falsely detect flesh.
To prevent this from happening, the safety system has to be “deactivated” for use, which creates an inherently unsafe condition, especially for users used to the safety system.
I think you're letting your (well-founded) grump against the guy infiltrate your assessment here.

At the end of the day, it is better to have than not have it, and if the dingle had been reasonable enough in his original ask I have zero doubt B&D would have done it.

It all comes down to money, on both sides.

The owner of Grizzly tools is a woodworker who makes guitars.
He actually seems to give a **** about making and selling decent woodworking tools, even if he tries to do so at a lower cost, with imported machines.
I would also trust the owner of Grizzly far more than the inventor of the Sawstop system.
This also applies to the current owner of Sawstop, Festool.
I agree with all of that.

But ultimately I don't care about the guy at the top of the company. A saw either has it or doesn't. As I said, I couldn't justify the $$ as a rare-user, but If I was a serious hobbyist, I'd almost certainly choose SawStop. As a professional, I'd have to think about it and how it did or didn't impact workflow and the final product, but I think I'd have them in the running - I don't know what I don't know on that one.

I haven't researched it, but people seem happy with their SawStop saws the the customer service, which is enough for me in this case. I can't say I'm so high minded that I won't allow anything the big-guy at a company does to impact my consideration of a good product, but the SawStop dingle doesn't meet that threshold. I wouldn't take him out for a beer though...
 

neophyte

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I think you're letting your (well-founded) grump against the guy infiltrate your assessment here.

At the end of the day, it is better to have than not have it, and if the dingle had been reasonable enough in his original ask I have zero doubt B&D would have done it.

It all comes down to money, on both sides.


I agree with all of that.

But ultimately I don't care about the guy at the top of the company. A saw either has it or doesn't. As I said, I couldn't justify the $$ as a rare-user, but If I was a serious hobbyist, I'd almost certainly choose SawStop. As a professional, I'd have to think about it and how it did or didn't impact workflow and the final product, but I think I'd have them in the running - I don't know what I don't know on that one.

I haven't researched it, but people seem happy with their SawStop saws the the customer service, which is enough for me in this case. I can't say I'm so high minded that I won't allow anything the big-guy at a company does to impact my consideration of a good product, but the SawStop dingle doesn't meet that threshold. I wouldn't take him out for a beer though...

This guy is Australian, and some of his complaints are more about the Australian saw retailer, shipping, and metric/imperial issues, but these are complaints basically before he started even using the saw.




This guy had to replace the saw’s switch do to some problem preventing the saw from functioning.

I presume more videos will start turning up as time goes by.




This guy tests the “false trip” “myths”, (and goes thru several or more Sawstop cartridges), and points out, that he knows of false trips using certain materials, both from personal use, and that of his brother, but that he could not replicate the issue in testing.
 

Firebrick43

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Nobody else does that!!!!! You must be shitting me. Boeing convinced the government that they didn't murder 250 people. The thing that Sawstop invented saves fingers and hands the things the Boeing invents kills people and strands astronauts. All corporations try to manipulate the government. IT'S CALLED LOBBYING. Well, some that are less kind would call it bribery

That is still not an example of a company trying to get the government to force a competitor to use their patent?

And I have issues with Boeing as well. After see their helicopters and problems with their fly by wire control systems causing crashes I have flown delta and united my whole adult life, which ever has an airbus on the destination I am heading to.

And I am baffled. Are you trying to say that we should buy a product no matter what irrespective of their moral turpitude? Even if a billionaire rich aunt unknown to me bequeathed her fortune I wouldn’t buy a Boeing.
 

johnre

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Basically, the supposed willingness and testimony of Sawstop to license and allow other power tool manufacturers,
both in the past, and the present, to license and use the Sawstop patents, seems to be and have been bullsh!t.

I believe we've established that SawStop initially developed the technology and offered to license their IT to everyone, and had no response to it at the time.

We've also established that SawStop, having now jumped into the deep end of the pool and capitalized the manufacture of a full line of table saws, is very reluctant to now license their IT and risk their business investment.

These are two totally different business scenarios, and you can't infer how sincere their first offer was, based on their present behavior. They have a lot more investment to protect now, and a significant market share, so they don't need to be benevolent with their IT at this point. It's therefore unreasonable to expect them to now carry through on offers that were made in a totally different business scenario.
 

acer66

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Smart choice. I have a friend with one.

An ER visit will cost 10X more than the premium that you paid for the Saw Stop. And then any surgery on top of that. Of course, as said, don't assume anything as far as protection; treat it like any table saw and assume the worst.

I don't currently have a table saw, but I've used them quite a few times; no tool has surprised me as much as it- as far as jerking my hand, or doing something weird, when I never expected it. Supposedly table saws and chain saws are the two most likely tools to send you to the ER.
This and iirc kickbacks injuries are more common anyway so very solid advice in treating it like a regular saw regarding savety.

If I ever replace or add another table saw to my unisaw it will be SawStop or similar.

Happy woodworking HB!
 

Boogerman

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I need to implement sawstop in my shop. Difficulty is new tools take time purchase, move, install, setup. I don't have time. My business plan this year is new Mill, Lathe, and Sawstop. Mill & Lathe delivered but not in service yet, sawstop will have to wait for later in year.
 

neophyte

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I believe we've established that SawStop initially developed the technology and offered to license their IT to everyone, and had no response to it at the time.

We've also established that SawStop, having now jumped into the deep end of the pool and capitalized the manufacture of a full line of table saws, is very reluctant to now license their IT and risk their business investment.

These are two totally different business scenarios, and you can't infer how sincere their first offer was, based on their present behavior. They have a lot more investment to protect now, and a significant market share, so they don't need to be benevolent with their IT at this point. It's therefore unreasonable to expect them to now carry through on offers that were made in a totally different business scenario.
Sawstop is still trying to get the technology mandated by government regulation.

Sawstop claims to have offered to license their technology to other manufacturers instead of manufacturing the saws themselves, but had “no response”.
The reality, is that both Black &Decker, and Makita, seemed willing to license the technology initially, and put effort and resources into doing so, but then declined.
B&D seems to have done a lot of testing, but found the technology and inventor, both flawed, and too expensive to be worth licensing, especially with the inherently flawed design.
Why Makita dropped the idea is uncertain, but reports of the licensing fees were an initial 3%, until the technology became “Industry Standard” at which point the licensing fee would rise to 8%.
This leads me to believe the licensing fee rate for competing manufacturers would have been higher than 8%, since there would be no reason for Makita to bother being first, if they wound up paying more once Makita proved the technology.
There is a reason no major power tool manufacturer in the US market licensed the technology.

After rejection, the “inventor”, Gass, tried to force the technology, first thru legislation,
and then by serving as an “expert” witness, against the various power tool manufacturers in lawsuits concerning tablesaw injuries.
The first major victory in this regard, was a lawsuit concerning someone who was injured, while using a tablesaw;
-without blade guards, (something that is unsafe, and against general safety standards, and which is not prevented even with Sawstop made saws),
-without formal knowledge of power tool usage, or training (something the worker’s employer should have insured, whether by testing the employees knowledge, or by training)
-without any type of fence or miter guide, essentially freehand cutting on top of the tablesaw (something you are basically never supposed to do with a tablesaw)
-and possibly without a manual so the worker could reference safety guidelines and proper usage of a tablesaw.


Representatives for Sawstop,
have claimed in official hearings,
presumably under oath, that they did not actually prevent other manufacturers from entering the market with competing saws.
Actual manufacturers have basically responded that both the former owners of Sawstop (the “inventor”),

However, they did sue Bosch when Bosch tried to enter the market with the Reaxx saw, and after Bosch lost this lawsuit, the Reaxx saw was removed from the market, which sort of casts the Sawstop claims into doubt,
or implies that Sawstop might have made demands from Bosch which Bosch would not not agree to. (The comment from Grizzly from 2011 quoting one of Sawstop’s answers regarding licensing the Sawstop technology makes me wonder if Sawstop demanded similar cooperation from Bosch. “If Grizzly is serious about licensing the SawStop technology, then Grizzly should encourage the Consumer Product Safety Commission (CPSC) to adopt new performance standards for table saws as soon as possible.”)

Further, Grizzly, and Stanley Black and Decker, have both come out and said that Sawstop, and later Sawstop/Festool’s claims about willingness to license the technology are and where bullsh!t.

Basically, Sawstop did not “play fair”.
They demanded way too much, for flawed technology, they would not personally back.
Then tried to force the free market to adopt the technology.
Then marketed the technology themselves, while denigrating all competing technology, and still trying to force all competing technology, new and old out of the marketplace.
Then continued trying to force the technology, while making claims about willingness to license the technology, while supposedly not actually being willing to license the technology.
 

M635_Guy

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This guy tests the “false trip” “myths”, (and goes thru several or more Sawstop cartridges), and points out, that he knows of false trips using certain materials, both from personal use, and that of his brother, but that he could not replicate the issue in testing.

Yeah - that last video is fairly positive IMHO.
 

neophyte

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Yeah - that last video is fairly positive IMHO.
True, but he also mentions false trips cutting acrylic mirror and pink foam.
The wet lumber surprised me, but I wonder if there could be different reactions to different lumber species and different types of pressure treated lumber.
Still, I’m glad I found the video, and glad he spent the money killed Sawstop cartridges actually testing stuff.
 
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