PUMA PK6060v setup questions

[Diyer2014]

Hi ,

I picked up a Puma PK6060v and I m trying to hook it up and wondering if anyone can help. the motor says 115/208-230v and 30/16.2-14.7 Amps .
I am planning on setting a 220v receptacle, here are my questions
I tested my lines and I have each hot measures 120 - 124v , when using two of the hots that would add up to 240-248v
Q1 : how would I make sure to stay within 230v max as recommended.
Q2 : what type of wire should I get knowing that the distance from the main box to the guarage is almost 70feet.
Q3: the motor says max 16.2 amps , will a 20amps breaker be sufficient or should I go lower (is there lower than 20amps)

appreciate any help

Best

 

[JoelR]

I bought me one of those...still works awesome after a few years. To answer your question, you will be running it at 240v. Most stuff like this you can run within 10% of nameplate voltage due to variations in power across the country. You will need a double pole breaker in your panel, 20A would be sufficient. Lower than that and you will trip the breaker from the current spike when that motor starts. 12 gauge copper wire if its really 70 feet, longer wire than that go to 10 gauge wire to avoid voltage drop issues

-Joel

 

[wild cowboy]

The name plate on the motor was created long ago, the standard in USA is now 120V/240V and it is fine to go a few volts higher, so your line voltage is just fine - they really should say 250V or 260V max to be accurate.

As far as the circuit, I am a big fan of larger wire than called for by NEMA'S NEC code, because for somewhat higher wire cost, you get more safety, more efficiency (lower power bill) and better performance!

Also, compressors and similar stuff have a larger demand at startup, so I would run a 30A 240V circuit minimum, and I would use 8 gauge wire (or 10 gauge if you are really being cheap), for a 70 foot run from the service panel. No way in hell I would use 12 gauge for this! Your wire cannot be too large, but it can sure be too small!

Some people will claim using large wire is a waste of money, but to me, you can't put a price on safety! The better performance of the motor and the increased efficiency are just a bonus!

 

[dogdog]

OP...Side question..... once you hooked that up, can you get a sound clip of that compressor running being looking for a 60 gallon but wanted a more quieter one....can't afford rotary screw quiet ones. so this one is on the list of considering...

 

[CoopVA]

In distances less than 125', it is a waste of money...

It is no more safe or efficient to put it on a larger circuit. It is not practical.

All you need is a 20a circuit with #12 copper for this compressor. It's rated at 16.6a on 208/230...


Sent from my iPad using Tapatalk

 

[CNGsaves]

OP . . . is your shop so large that 70 ft is the distance from subpanel to this compressor ???

Or are you running a dedicated 240v run from house to garage for this compressor?? So I presume buried if garage is detached??

Lots MORE INFORMATION necessary to get best advice from sparky's.

Why not just bury Al 2-2-2-4 MHF for $1.50/ft and put a proper subpanel in the garage with 50A to 90A depending on what you have at main?? {my .02 guess at what you REALLY need }

 

[wild cowboy]

In distances less than 125', it is a waste of money...

It is no more safe or efficient to put it on a larger circuit. It is not practical.

All you need is a 20a circuit with #12 copper for this compressor. It's rated at 16.6a on 208/230...

On a 20A circuit, you will be popping the breaker on startup, especially if the compressor is going to be in cold weather (as most are). You want a 30A circuit, and 10 gauge at the very minimum, NOT 12

An once again, larger wire is always safer, more energy efficient, and lets motors perform to their full spec (due to minimizing voltage drop) - and anyone who doubts this really needs to take a class on power systems engineering at your local college!

Cost should be the last consideration, you are running one friggin wire, not wiring a factory!

I love how some of the people here would spend $10K on a silly-*** toolbox, but not spend an extra $25 for an adequate wire! - It boggles the mind!

 

[CoopVA]

On a 20A circuit, you will be popping the breaker on startup, especially if the compressor is going to be in cold weather (as most are). You want a 30A circuit, and 10 gauge at the very minimum, NOT 12

An once again, larger wire is always safer, more energy efficient, and lets motors perform to their full spec (due to minimizing voltage drop) - and anyone who doubts this really needs to take a class on power systems engineering at your local college!

Cost should be the last consideration, you are running one friggin wire, not wiring a factory!

Are you a glutton for punishment cowboy?

You are so wrong.... Even at 125%, that motor is pulling very little over 20a...





Sent from my iPad using Tapatalk

 

[wild cowboy]

Are you a glutton for punishment cowboy?

You are so wrong.... Even at 125%, that motor is pulling very little over 20a...

Dude, seriously, take that power course I recommended, and on the first day of class, ask the instructor to explain Locked Rotor Amps to you!

 

[CoopVA]

Dude, seriously, take that power course I recommended, and on the first day of class, ask the instructor to explain Locked Rotor Amps to you!

That's funny! That's why you don't size a circuit using locked rotor current. You use Full Load Amperage. Big difference...

Stick to conceptual design cowboy. Leave the real world installations to those that know what they are doing.


Sent from my iPad using Tapatalk

 

[CoopVA]

OP . . . is your shop so large that 70 ft is the distance from subpanel to this compressor ???

Or are you running a dedicated 240v run from house to garage for this compressor?? So I presume buried if garage is detached??

Lots MORE INFORMATION necessary to get best advice from sparky's.

Why not just bury Al 2-2-2-4 MHF for $1.50/ft and put a proper subpanel in the garage with 50A to 90A depending on what you have at main?? {my .02 guess at what you REALLY need }

^^^This^^^


Sent from my iPad using Tapatalk

 

[wild cowboy]

That's funny! That's why you don't size a circuit using locked rotor current. You use Full Load Amperage. Big difference...

Stick to conceptual design cowboy. Leave the real world installations to those that know what they are doing.

I am surprised you know so little! - on cold days, the startup current far exceeds full load amperage, and can approach LRA current - I have seen this in the field over and over and measured it, time and time again - if you need to borrow a clamp on ammeter to see it for yourself, I am using mine, you should have one and try using it!

 

[CoopVA]

Keep giving bad advice cowboy. You are an idiot.

Apologies to the OP...


Sent from my iPad using Tapatalk

 

[wild cowboy]

Keep giving bad advice cowboy. You are an idiot.

So when the facts prove you wrong, as well as the science, your intellectual comeback is "You are an idiot."?

I think anyone who understands electric motors and pump oil viscosity in cold temperatures should be able to read this thread and know who needs to go back and take some basic electricity classes in school.

 

[CoopVA]

So when the facts prove you wrong, as well as the science, your intellectual comeback is "You are an idiot."?

I think anyone who understands electric motors and pump oil viscosity in cold temperatures should be able to read this thread and know who needs to go back and take some basic electricity classes in school.

Ok, that was a little harsh. I apologize.

The circuit for a motor is sized by its FLC * 125%. 115% if it is rated "continuous duty".

If you do the math, 16.6*125% = 20.75

16.6*115%=19.9

I suppose, at 20.75a, one may want to upsize to 30a. Technically, the NEC rates a 3hp 230v motor at 17a FLC... 17*125%=21.25 and 17*115%=19.55

Given that, the NEC would require a 30 amp circuit. I yield to that. It's right there on the cusp, and a 20a circuit would work and be safe.

So now that the NEC calls for a 30a circuit, are you going to say that it should be wired with #8 with a 40a breaker?




Sent from my iPad using Tapatalk

 

[wild cowboy]

Not only are you over 20 amps, but what about when it is in the middle of winter?

I have seen compressors not start at all due to the viscosity of the oil in the pump (another reason I run 0W-30 or 0W-20 in compressors that are exposed to cold)

when a compressor fails to start, because it cannot turn the pump due to the thick stock oil, that is locked rotor amps, and LRA can be many times the normal running load current.

So basically, as I said originally, the OP needs a 30 amp circuit, especially in light of the cold, and as far as wire, he is only buying 70 feet of wire, it's just not that much money to get the full performance out of a compressor he may use for 10 or 20 years!

Other than an initial few extra bucks, there is no downside to using larger wire, but there are many potential downsides to using too small of a wire, and those are safety, efficiency, and lack of full power/voltage to the equipment!

 

[CoopVA]

Most compressors like this are not meant for outdoor use or in an unconditioned environment....


Sent from my iPad using Tapatalk

 

[wild cowboy]

Many DIY guys with an entry-level compressor have it in a non-centrally heated garage, often just a carport, or a utility building out back - I would not want to be sleeping where the average compressor lives when it is 10 below!.....brrrr

 

[Diyer2014]

OP . . . is your shop so large that 70 ft is the distance from subpanel to this compressor ???

Or are you running a dedicated 240v run from house to garage for this compressor?? So I presume buried if garage is detached??

Lots MORE INFORMATION necessary to get best advice from sparky's.

Why not just bury Al 2-2-2-4 MHF for $1.50/ft and put a proper subpanel in the garage with 50A to 90A depending on what you have at main?? {my .02 guess at what you REALLY need }

garage is attached but does not have a subpanel, the 70ft is from main panel to the garage, I could go with a subpanel but this requires more time to setup , I am pressed for time and want to test the compressor , it is sitting on floor now and clock is ticking.

 

[Diyer2014]

Not only are you over 20 amps, but what about when it is in the middle of winter?

I have seen compressors not start at all due to the viscosity of the oil in the pump (another reason I run 0W-30 or 0W-20 in compressors that are exposed to cold)

when a compressor fails to start, because it cannot turn the pump due to the thick stock oil, that is locked rotor amps, and LRA can be many times the normal running load current.

So basically, as I said originally, the OP needs a 30 amp circuit, especially in light of the cold, and as far as wire, he is only buying 70 feet of wire, it's just not that much money to get the full performance out of a compressor he may use for 10 or 20 years!

Other than an initial few extra bucks, there is no downside to using larger wire, but there are many potential downsides to using too small of a wire, and those are safety, efficiency, and lack of full power/voltage to the equipment!

a newbie question, if I use a 30A breaker and in the event that for some reason more then 30A are drawn (not at startup but in case of a fault) wouldn't that kill the motor because the breaker will not trip ? my main concern is safety of course but also protecting the motor in case of a fault. How much more current in cold weather will the motor draw ?
is there a formula how much amps the motor will draw at startup ?
WDYT?

 

[CNGsaves]

Cool, you might do your work on that run in such a way that it helps you ultimately get a subpanel out in garage.

Thus, plan ahead sections that you might run conduit up in attic to easily pull wires later, etc. - - - thus, you could use that "temporary" compressor wire as your pull wire to backpull 4 individual copper wires for 50A in garage subpanel in future.

Heck maybe just use oversized 4 individual wires on purpose, that would later become your feed to subpanel. Good luck.

 

[CoopVA]

a newbie question, if I use a 30A breaker and in the event that for some reason more then 30A are drawn (not at startup but in case of a fault) wouldn't that kill the motor because the breaker will not trip ? my main concern is safety of course but also protecting the motor in case of fault ?

WDYT ?

No. The breaker would trip if it draws more than 30 amps. That would be an over current situation, and is the main purpose of having the breaker correctly sized.


Sent from my iPad using Tapatalk

 

[whitedogone]

Why not take the oppertuity to add a subpanel in the garage for future needs?

 

[Diyer2014]

No. The breaker would trip if it draws more than 30 amps. That would be an over current situation, and is the main purpose of having the breaker correctly sized.


Sent from my iPad using Tapatalk

So if the motor is rated at 16.2@230v and if the breaker is a 30amps breaker, what will happen to the motor if for some reason/fault 29 amps is drawn ?

 

[CoopVA]

So if the motor is rated at 16.2@230v and if the breaker is a 30amps breaker, what will happen to the motor if for some reason/fault 29 amps is drawn ?

You have to remember that the motor must have it's over current protection calculated by its HP rating and FLC amps. The NEC specifies that a 230v single phase 3 HP motor has an FLC of 17 amps. The Table in article 430 states the OCP must be 30amps. The wire can be #12 THHN per table 310.16.

Others may disagree, but this is what is required per Code, will protect the circuit and will be safe.

Oh, and to answer your question, the thermal overload should trip and power to the motor will be cut, I imagine the breaker would also trip and the motor may be damaged by whatever caused the fault to begin with...

Here's a handy chart for everyone's use....

http://www.cooperindustries.com/con.../BUS_Ele_Tech_Lib_Motor_Protection_Tables.pdf


Sent from my iPad using Tapatalk

 

[Diyer2014]

ok , so to summarize 10 gauge wire with 30 amps double pole breaker, if the line is a dedicated line.

any issues with that setup ?

Best

 

[CoopVA]

ok , so to summarize 10 gauge wire with 30 amps double pole breaker, if the line is a dedicated line.



any issues with that setup ?



Best

No.


Sent from my iPad using Tapatalk

 

[PT Doc]

I was not aware that compressors were designed to be used in heated environments as was stated earlier. Can someone confirm this? I don't remember reading this in the Quincy manuals but would like to know. Could be a good reason to add a NG heater in the garage. I'm not likely in the garage when it is below freezing anyway.

 

[wild cowboy]

I was not aware that compressors were designed to be used in heated environments as was stated earlier. Can someone confirm this? I don't remember reading this in the Quincy manuals but would like to know. Could be a good reason to add a NG heater in the garage. I'm not likely in the garage when it is below freezing anyway.

If you are not using it (or it doesn't kick on by itself due to leaks) in below freezing weather, then there is no problem. Just unplug during the winter.

But if you do use it on very cold days in Denver, then the easy solution is a 0W-30 or 0W-20 good name brand synthetic oil that will keep the pump easy for the motor to turn, even in weather far below zero.

 

[CoopVA]

I was not aware that compressors were designed to be used in heated environments as was stated earlier. Can someone confirm this? I don't remember reading this in the Quincy manuals but would like to know. Could be a good reason to add a NG heater in the garage. I'm not likely in the garage when it is below freezing anyway.

They do make outdoor rated compressors and enclosures for compressors. Most of the compressors we use in our garages and shops are not meant for outdoor use. They are meant to be in a semi controlled environment. When the temperature gets below freezing, the oil in the compressor thickens and will cause it to run less efficiently and will shorten it's lifespan.

Pretty much common sense really... I'll see if I can find something in writing for you.


Sent from my iPad using Tapatalk

 

[wild cowboy]

is there a formula how much amps the motor will draw at startup ?
WDYT?

there is no formula because it all depends on the type of oil you use in the compressor and the coldest temperatures that the compressor will see during winter in your location. On a hot day or with 0W oil they don't draw all that much. what city are you in?

whatever you do, get rid of that junk Chinese oil they are shipped with, both any in a bottle and any in the compressor. Use a good name brand compressor oil from Mobil or other large oil company, or else a passenger car synthetic from a high end company like Pennzoil, Shell, Mobil, Castrol, Valvoline, Quaker State, etc. would be great - stick with a synthetic 5W-30, 5W-20, 0W-30 or 0W-20 and you will be fine. those 0W ones are what you want if it gets below 10 degrees F. where the compressor is installed.

 

[PT Doc]

They do make outdoor rated compressors and enclosures for compressors. Most of the compressors we use in our garages and shops are not meant for outdoor use. They are meant to be in a semi controlled environment. When the temperature gets below freezing, the oil in the compressor thickens and will cause it to run less efficiently and will shorten it's lifespan.

Pretty much common sense really... I'll see if I can find something in writing for you.


Sent from my iPad using Tapatalk

To what temp would the manufacturer synthetic oils be rated? I'm using Quincy Quincip that came in a kit.

 

[CoopVA]

there is no formula because it all depends on the type of oil you use in the compressor and the coldest temperatures that the compressor will see during winter in your location. On a hot day or with 0W oil they don't draw all that much. what city are you in?

whatever you do, get rid of that junk Chinese oil they are shipped with, both any in a bottle and any in the compressor. Use a good name brand compressor oil from Mobil or other large oil company, or else a passenger car synthetic from a high end company like Pennzoil, Shell, Mobil, Castrol, Valvoline, Quaker State, etc. would be great - stick with a synthetic 5W-30, 5W-20, 0W-30 or 0W-20 and you will be fine. those 0W ones are what you want if it gets below 10 degrees F. where the compressor is installed.

That's why we go by the NEC 430... Has nothing to do with what oil you use.

And if your going to use automobile motor oil, use a non detergent synthetic blend, though I do not recommend to.

A machine runs better in a stable environment. They are meant to run in a stable environment, less they are enhanced with added accessories to overcome the change in the environment such as put in an enclosure, beefier air intakes and exhausts, insulation ect. Ect...

The typical air compressor we have in our garage is not designed to be in an outdoor environment with temperature fluctuations.


Sent from my iPad using Tapatalk

 

[wild cowboy]

That's why we go by the NEC 430... Has nothing to do with what oil you use.

Has everything to do with the viscosity of the oil you use, and the ambient temperature the compressor is running in. This is what determines how much work (and therefore current) is required from the motor. Electricians should probably not give oil advice.

And if your going to use automobile motor oil, use a non detergent synthetic blend, though I do not recommend to.

A modern synthetic has anti-foaming agents, and is fine for the light, non-combustion, very low wear duty a low speed compressor pump requires. Just change your compressor oil yearly for long life, that is not long enough to really get any particles suspended in the oil, as the wear is near zero with these modern oils. The main thing is to ditch that horrible Chinese junk oil your compressor came with!

A machine runs better in a stable environment. They are meant to run in a stable environment, less they are enhanced with added accessories to overcome the change in the environment such as put in an enclosure, beefier air intakes and exhausts, insulation ect. Ect...

The typical air compressor we have in our garage is not designed to be in an outdoor environment with temperature fluctuations.

Compressors do fine in temperature extremes as long as you change out the stock pump oil with a high quality synthetic with a 5W or 0W as the bottom number. The compressor should not be run in direct sunlight in the summer, should not be exposed to rain, and should have room around it for adequate ventilation of both the motor, cylinders, and intercooler (if equipped). Never use your compressor as handy place to hang your jacket or allow wood shavings or other debris to build up in the motor, cylinders, or other critical cooling areas! Given these considerations, mounting your compressor in an unheated carport is just fine!


Everyone here at GJ would really dispel some old myths about motor oil in their head by taking a few minutes and reading Motor Oil 101 at BobIsTheOilGuy.com

here is a snippet:

The greatest confusion is because of the way motor oils are labeled. It is an old system and is confusing to many people. I know the person is confused when they say that a 0W-30 oil is too thin for their engine because the old manual says to use 10W-30. This is wrong.

 

[CoopVA]

Has everything to do with the viscosity of the oil you use, and the ambient temperature the compressor is running in. This is what determines how much work (and therefore current) is required from the motor. Electricians should probably not give oil advice.

No, it doesn't. The motors FLC is what it is no matter what oil you put in it or what the temp is outside...

And my oil advice is sound.



Sent from my iPad using Tapatalk

 

[wild cowboy]

No, it doesn't. The motors FLC is what it is no matter what oil you put in it or what the temp is outside...

And my oil advice is sound.

No, your oil advice is wrong, as is your wiring advice, as we already proved, earlier in the thread, when you caved in post #15

However, you apparently didn't read my post #16 close enough, the motor can lock up (LRA) and not start at all if the weather is too cold due to a cheap oil that is thick in cold weather. This amount of current far exceeds the FULL LOAD AMPS - When you take that college course on electricity, can you add one on Fluid dynamics and Viscosity as well? Here is a quick primer to get you started for free:

http://physics.info/viscosity/

but read the Motor Oil 101 first, that will clear up a lot of things.

 

[CoopVA]

That's why they are not designed to be used in an outdoor environment or in extremes of temperature difference....


You really are funny to watch cowboy...


Sent from my iPad using Tapatalk

 

[CoopVA]

Oh, and I am not afraid to admit i am wrong either. I didn't cave. I did agree that a 30 amp breaker is required by Code, but was still over kill as the FLC * 125% is right on the cusp of being over 20 amps. I did agree that in this circumstance that #10 wire would be what I would use, but that #12 is perfectly legal and adequate.

The only reason I would use #10 is due to the use of a 30 amp breaker.

 

[JoelR]

First off, the motor suggested said 14.7A at 230v which would translate to 14.0 at 240v. No way in the world will you get a measurable increase in efficiency with larger wire. voltage drop on 12 gauge over 70 feet is about 3 volts compared to 2 volts with 10 gauge wire. so 1 volt difference at 14 amps is 14 watts per hour difference....THAT IS LITERALLY NOTHING. Also there is a formula for locked rotor/start up amperage, its up to 600 percent of nameplate full load amps. I should point out that I have this exact compressor and it runs fine on 12awg copper. If you really want to protect that motor get a magnetic motor starter. The thermal overloads will protect your motor windings if stuff gets crazy.

 

[JoelR]

It runs pretty quietly, enough I don't feel the need for ear protection like with smaller units. A poly-V belt helps a lot with vibration/noise
-Joel