Question for cabinet makers

[WhoWhatNow]

What construction methods and features define a high end kitchen cabinet? What sets a custom cabinet you find in a $100K+ kitchen apart from the off-the shelf cabinets you find the big box stores or even a kitchen supply shop? I am asking because I am thinking of building cabinets for our kitchen and I want to understand what construction techniques, materials and features define a high end custom cabinet.

 

[jkeyser14]

3/4" on all sides, higher quality solid wood or ply with real wood veneers, burls, trims, etc. Full dado joints rather than just glue and staples. Solid 3/4 ply backing, Solid wood doors. Soft close hinges and slides, under drawer slides, etc.

 

[rlitman]

agreed with everything above, just adding some more...

Box store cabinets at best will be chip board boxes with edge banding. At worst, fiberboard. Quality cabinets will use plywood boxes. Preferably hardwood ply.

Also, custom cabinets are generally frameless, so there is no face frame intruding on the door opening.

Lastly, the joinery methods on doors varies a lot with the quality of the construction. On my cabinets for example (which are NOT custom, but are pretty good considering they're made in China), the doors have what appear on the outside to be "picture-frame" mitered corners, but which actually are made with bridle joints that are much stronger than the typical mortise and tenon construction.

 

[KenB]

To go further upscale, real wood vs. melamine cabinet interiors. And dovetailed drawers. Another feature in upscale kitchens is appliances with door inserts that match the cabinets.

Ken

 

[Jon_E]

There is a very large sliding scale of quality from the worst to the best in terms of kitchen cabinets. And, quite often the price does not accurately reflect the quality. Here's a personal example: in my workplace, we spent nearly $100,000 on what was ultimately three kitchens' worth of custom cabinets. All were made with particle board (not even MDF), cheap plastic laminate and edgebanding, glued and doweled joints, cheap sidemount drawer slides, and everything made by machine. The cabinets are less than five years old and many of them are failing due to daily use and a very poor resistance to moisture. Probably the worst quality cabinets I have ever seen in my life, and I have seen some really **** stuff.

In my own kitchen, I used 3/4" birch plywood and solid cherry for all of the boxes and face frames, 1/2" and 1/4" baltic birch ply for all of the drawers and bottoms, and solid cherry for all of the drawer fronts. Cabinet door joints cut by a router with Shaker-style profile, 1/4" cherry plywood flat panels, and everything assembled with glue. Accuride sidemount full-extension slides and nickel-plated hinges and pulls. The only thing I went cheap on was that I assembled the cabinet boxes and drawers with pocket hole screws and glue, which are strong as any other joint when done properly. Total cost for my whole kitchen was less than $3000 including all the hardware.

In a high-end kitchen you are likely to find solid maple or possibly poplar drawer sides that are nicely dovetailed and glued. Solid core plywood with quality face veneers, No MDF or particle board anywhere. Full-extension or overtravel soft-close slides. Quality brass, nickel or stainless hardware. All joints securely fastened and glued, plenty of bracing, all interiors finished to the same standard as the outside.

So, here's one way to look at your kitchen, especially if it's your own work - think of it as a workshop with a different set of tools. My kitchen gets used hard and often, it's a functional workshop for meals. Make the exterior as appealing as you can, it's just for appearance. Make the interior as utilitarian as you can, it does the work. You do not need the finely dovetailed drawers and fancy $80 undermount slides - make it useful and efficient. Besides, the next guy that owns your house is going to hate the kitchen no matter how nice you build it, and will tear it all out and start over anyway.

 

[yeldogt]

Better cabinets begin with a better box .. I like high quality pre-finished maple as a start. The most expensive design is the inset where the doors and drawers fit within the frames ...like furniture.

Custom allows for better design with no seams -- they are less busy. One cabinet in a row vs 3 or 4 made up. I never do toe kicks .. english with a thiner top and greater overhang.

It grows from there --- better drawers ... more inserts. I like painted cabinets ....

 

[SarcasticDwarf]

For the wood, is there any place cheaper than buying it at HD/Lowes/lumber yard? All are similar in price, though lumber yard is better quality. Ex: 3/4" x 2' x 4' birch ply is about $40.

 

[turbowoodworker]

Dwarf,

Buying by the bd foot is always better than the price per board at big box. Not to mention better wood, and often discounts above certain board foot thresholds (variable). When it comes to plywood, HD and Lowe's only have a few species to select from and hardwood ply is very expensive there.

Prefinished or primed/paint grade play or maple ply is not even commonly avail at HD etc. Depends on what you want to do. A sheet of 3/4 (23/32") walnut is pushing $85 now.

 

[turbowoodworker]

For the OP, I don't have much to add but it boils down to materials (good wood vs. particle bd or melamine, good hardware and slides) and time (joinery, especially for drawers).
Nothing pisses me off like seeing a nice new kitchen with stapled drawers. But they are produced very quickly.

 

[Marctrees]

Be very cautious of imported "hardwood" plywoods...there can be veneer adhesion QC problems, etc... REALLY try to get USA or Canadian or at least proven reputable historied specific product.

Find a supplier that serves cab shops for example - http://www.industrialplywood.com/ and hopefully a salesperson that gives honest knowlegable advice

Outsource your doors and drawer fronts like many cab shops do, and use the Kreg pockethole system for your faceframes., and IMHO for the cases as well.

Check into Taunton Press (Fine Homebuilding magazine) books on making cab's.

Marc

 

[jkeyser14]

For the wood, is there any place cheaper than buying it at HD/Lowes/lumber yard? All are similar in price, though lumber yard is better quality. Ex: 3/4" x 2' x 4' birch ply is about $40.

The quality of the lumber at the box stores is absolute ****. I bought 3/4 Maple ply from one recently and it is a super thin veneer and is FULL of voids.

 

[yeldogt]

For the wood, is there any place cheaper than buying it at HD/Lowes/lumber yard? All are similar in price, though lumber yard is better quality. Ex: 3/4" x 2' x 4' birch ply is about $40.

Most lumber yards can order in speciality plywood products -- there are companies that specialize ... distributers. Typically wholesale only ...many supply countertops ..quartz ..Corian .... various speciality building products

 

[scottydosnntkno]

What construction methods and features define a high end kitchen cabinet? What sets a custom cabinet you find in a $100K+ kitchen apart from the off-the shelf cabinets you find the big box stores or even a kitchen supply shop? I am asking because I am thinking of building cabinets for our kitchen and I want to understand what construction techniques, materials and features define a high end custom cabinet.

Long time high end cabinet guy here

One of the biggest factors is the door style and finish, and the decorative panels.

We don’t make our doors, we have a company who can make any size and style and profile door you want, in 1/16” increments, in any wood species. Shipped to our door in two weeks ready to finish out of the box.

Take a basic 18x30” upper cabinet door. In paint grade shaker, that’s a $35 door all day long. In a stain grade walnut, with a fancy design, it’s now a $180 door. Add in divided glass, and your talking $250+. Or almost ten times the cost for what appears to be the same size door.

Then you have the finishing. Clearcoat is the cheapest. Solid stain is the next cheapest. Then paint grade. Then glazed/stained, then glazed/painted. Clear is two coats each side. Stain is one stain, two clears each side. Paint is four coats each side. Glazed/stain is one stain, one glaze, two clearcoats each side. Glazed/painted is four coats plus a glaze each side.

Most high end kitchens are custom sized, meaning no filler strips. Each cabinet can be way 29-3/16 wide installers of 27” like stock cabinets. So every part, door, drawer box and piece of the cabinet is custom made one by one, not mass produced/bought. Then you add in the fluted panels, decorative end panels, decorative door panels (which still cost 3-700$ ea), put ten in a big kitchen and there’s 5k like that.

There are a hundred things that make custom cabinets expensive. The most basic is that they’re custom. Every piece is usually hand cut to a specific size

 

[wondo]

Quality materials and joinery. Its incredible how cheap and flimsy a standard merillat or any other standard line cabinet is. At the same time I've pulled 3/8" box cabinets that were perfectly fine after 20 years of abuse. At the end of the day most end consumers thi k a grey cabinet door with soft close hinges is "high end". My point is even a bad cabinet will work and most people would never know the difference. Figure out what matters to you and bud accordingly. Or build one cabinet and see how bad some premade or RTA cabinets are. I cant wait to build my own kitchen cabinets but with 2 and 4 year old kids that's not happening for many years, for time sake and the ability for tiny terrorists to destroy nice things.

 

[Jakemedic]

Hi!
Look at Build Your Own Kitchen Cabinets by Danny Prouix. Excellent reference book that I have used for many cabinet projects. My dad was a cabinet builder and when he wanted to teach me, I was busy chasing girls and drinking. 30+ years later, I’m building a dedicated woodworking shop to hone my cabinet making skills. 3/4” cabinet sides, dovetails and inset doors/drawers are signs of good cabinets in my estimation. What cracks me up is the home improvement shows use cabinets to go, RTA in their high end kitchens. These houses in California are going for 500k and up. But they put granite counters on them. Good luck with your project!

 

[ericlar80]

For those interested - I've ordered cabinet doors from Barker Door and was very happy with the end quality of the product. Doors take the most skill; you can kinda fudge the box so long as it is square, and get the right door to fit perfectly.

 

[scottydosnntkno]

For the wood, is there any place cheaper than buying it at HD/Lowes/lumber yard? All are similar in price, though lumber yard is better quality. Ex: 3/4" x 2' x 4' birch ply is about $40.

Find a actual cabinet supplier. I can get 1/2” maple ply, unfinished one side and prefinished UV clear one side (outside stain/paint, inside natural finish) for $46 per 4x8 sheet. Or $160 at your pricing.

3/4 is 64/sheet for the same thing. But really, 3/4 is overkill for the sides, back and bottoms of any cabinet. We offer it as an up grade, an no one takes it. There’s zero practical benefit to 1-1/2” of plywood screwed together and 1” between two cabinets, other than the benefit of knowing you have it because you have to have the ‘best’

 

[glentre]

Painted cabinets are becoming more popular these days for high end kitchens but most guys building their own don't have the equipment or expertise to do this. With very limited spray experience and using a cheap portable spray booth and an inexpensive hvlp spray rig, I painted over 50 doors/drawer fronts on a rental house kitchen and, when done, it looks and feels like a factory finish. The paint was Sherwin Williams water based Emerald Urethane. Just mentioning this in case someone is thinking about painting their own cabinets but thinks the equipment is too expensive and that it must be done by a professional paint shop. You can do it yourself with great results.

Glen

 

[56Mark]

I built a house last year and put in a mid grade cabinet that we are happy with. Local building yard (Builders 1st) had a good deal on them because some developer about 80 miles away in Knoxville was putting them in hundreds of houses. They offer sizes every 1 1/2" instead of the typical 3". That helped with filler boards and I only have one little strip that I have to hunt for now. They are not the best you can buy but I felt were a good value.
I liked the thought of building my own, but building and finishing while building house was not realistic.

https://www.midcontinentcabinetry.com/

 

[toolmiser]

I built our own cabinets a few years ago. I agree with others have said. I have finished panels on exposed ends (frame and panel), and have the corners rounded on ends of cabinets. I also built the cabinets in sections so there were less seams, and gained just a little space also. Toe kicks are solid wood and continuous grain when possible. I have drawers in the toe kicks. I made the doors myself, because I had the wood and time (it takes a lot of time). I intentionally chose wood for the panels of doors with wild grain and knots. I'm not a snob about them, but am proud-would never do it a second time either.

 

[ddawg16]

I build my own cabinets.
Face frames are easy. But I use 1/2 quality plywood for the sides. Makes it lighter.

For the shelves, I use Melamine (Maple) since it wears and cleans a whole lot easier.

As others have said...I buy my doors and drawers. I've done the DIY on those, and it's just not worth my time. The place I get my stuff from does a fantastic job. The only prep I have to do to doors, is blow the saw dust off and give them a quick wipe...ready for stain.
For those in the LA area...
http://www.dreeswoodproducts.com/

I recently re-did my kitchen.....

 

[Cooter Brown]

Long time high end cabinet guy here

One of the biggest factors is the door style and finish, and the decorative panels.

We don’t make our doors, we have a company who can make any size and style and profile door you want, in 1/16” increments, in any wood species. Shipped to our door in two weeks ready to finish out of the box.

Take a basic 18x30” upper cabinet door. In paint grade shaker, that’s a $35 door all day long. In a stain grade walnut, with a fancy design, it’s now a $180 door. Add in divided glass, and your talking $250+. Or almost ten times the cost for what appears to be the same size door.

Then you have the finishing. Clearcoat is the cheapest. Solid stain is the next cheapest. Then paint grade. Then glazed/stained, then glazed/painted. Clear is two coats each side. Stain is one stain, two clears each side. Paint is four coats each side. Glazed/stain is one stain, one glaze, two clearcoats each side. Glazed/painted is four coats plus a glaze each side.

Most high end kitchens are custom sized, meaning no filler strips. Each cabinet can be way 29-3/16 wide installers of 27” like stock cabinets. So every part, door, drawer box and piece of the cabinet is custom made one by one, not mass produced/bought. Then you add in the fluted panels, decorative end panels, decorative door panels (which still cost 3-700$ ea), put ten in a big kitchen and there’s 5k like that.

There are a hundred things that make custom cabinets expensive. The most basic is that they’re custom. Every piece is usually hand cut to a specific size

Another cabinetmaker here--this is a good assessment. I'd include that inset doors and drawers kick up the cost. It requires more skill and care in building and installing the cabinets, and in my mind makes a huge difference in appearance.

 

[glentre]

For those who want to build their own cabinets and have them look and be custom, I'd suggest contacting a local commercial cabinet shop. Most of them these days have computerized design capabilities which allows them to design any width, depth, height or type of cabinet. They can not only do a complete kitchen layout for you but also give you a cut list of all the parts needed and also furnish a schedule of the sheet goods, hinges, drawer slides, and other hardware you will need to make and assemble your cabinets. The programs are similar to those used by the big box stores to do kitchen layouts but are far more sophisticated in that they are not restricted to any stock cabinet sizes. Knowing the dimensions of the space you want to fill with cabinets, the computer will size the cabinets accordingly. Some of these shops have set up their programs to generate face frame cabinets, some for frameless and some do both.

Considering these shops have basically shut down their production because of the pandemic, they would welcome any income at all they might be able to generate from offering design services.

Glen

 

[homebuilt burner]

I have built a number of cabinets. Not nearly as many as others on here, I am sure. I suggest starting by reading the book below by Bob Lang. It is a good book that talks about general construction and also how to organize the building process.

 

[theoldwizard1]

3/4" on all sides, higher quality solid wood or ply with real wood veneers, burls, trims, etc.

Just to be clear, veneer would only be acceptable on the INTERIORS.

 

[theoldwizard1]

For the wood, is there any place cheaper than buying it at HD/Lowes/lumber yard? All are similar in price, though lumber yard is better quality. Ex: 3/4" x 2' x 4' birch ply is about $40.

For plywood, buy 4'x8' panels and pay to have them cut them "close" to you finished size.

Menards seems to have a better selection of both wood and plywood.

 

[theoldwizard1]

The quality of the lumber at the box stores is absolute ****. I bought 3/4 Maple ply from one recently and it is a super thin veneer and is FULL of voids.

Usually, thinner plies, means more strength. The only way to get around voids is to buy PREMIUM plywood. Sometimes this marketed a "Baltic" but in the US it does not come from that part of the world.

This is definitely a case of "buyer beware".

 

[theoldwizard1]

We don’t make our doors, we have a company who can make any size and style and profile door you want, in 1/16” increments, in any wood species. Shipped to our door in two weeks ready to finish out of the box.

Does this company take order from DIYers ?

Any issue with wild grain variations in the glued up panels ? (The doors you order from HD, are all over the place. Fine for paint, but probably not for staining.)

 

[theoldwizard1]

Find a actual cabinet supplier. I can get 1/2” maple ply, unfinished one side and prefinished UV clear one side (outside stain/paint, inside natural finish) for $46 per 4x8 sheet.

That is a STEAL ! I assume no interior voids ?

 

[Marctrees]

"Does this company take order from DIYers ?

Any issue with wild grain variations in the glued up panels ? (The doors you order from HD, are all over the place. Fine for paint, but probably not for staining.)"

When one orders from an established door company they specify paint or stain grade.
The door maker understands the grain patterns is important for stain, BUT I'm sure it is a good idea to spell it out in the order.

Marc

 

[Marctrees]

There is normally no benefit to use 3/4 for case sides over 1/2"

Most shops use pocket screws for faceframe to carcass, AND AFAIK ? for fixed shelves within a carcass.

I suppose if a guy was actually running dados or rabbets 3/4 would be better, but again why not use pocket screws.

I did a set of very nice cabs 12 yrs ago and used no dados or rabbetts... so all my case sides were 1/2", except visible end panels were glued up solid 3/4".

Another advantage of using an out of house door maker is they will bore the doors for the "euro" hinges making door to frame mounting VERY easy.

Marc

 

[Marctrees]

Last time... it is important... Do NOT get sucked into Bigbox or even old school lumberyard imported plywood.

Get the ply from a cab supplier and CONFIRM that the specific item you are buying has successful history w their USERS..

Plywood is not just plywood just like a HF ratchet is not a Snap on.

Marc

 

[manwithtools]

Just to be clear, veneer would only be acceptable on the INTERIORS.

For plywood, buy 4'x8' panels and pay to have them cut them "close" to you finished size.

Menards seems to have a better selection of both wood and plywood.

Not true at all. Many cabinets have different veneers inside and outside (now many are also pre-finished). For example, it could be Maple outside Veneer and Birch inside. Any plywood by definition is veneer both sides BTW.

No big box store is going to understand true cabinet grade plywood for use by the DIY guy. Find your local Plywood supply house and work with them, most are happy to take DIY orders, just be sure you are negotiating some form of discount. They are likely cheaper than the box store already, but don't let them take advantage of you.

 

[Marctrees]

Originally Posted by theoldwizard1 View Post
"Just to be clear, veneer would only be acceptable on the INTERIORS."

Well, in itself this is true but is automatic if doors are non ply, and if cab exposed ends are also non ply... so now everything showing is not veneered.

Most "european" inset doors will be veneered ply...main reason being it is very difficult to makup a glued up slab that will remain flat... so they use ply, and so it's veneered... but a HIGH grade of ply.

Marc

 

[Marctrees]

I suppose if shelf standards are dado'd in then 3/4" would be better, possibly arguably necessary, IDK.

Marc

 

[ddawg16]

"Does this company take order from DIYers ?

Any issue with wild grain variations in the glued up panels ? (The doors you order from HD, are all over the place. Fine for paint, but probably not for staining.)"

When one orders from an established door company they specify paint or stain grade.
The door maker understands the grain patterns is important for stain, BUT I'm sure it is a good idea to spell it out in the order.

Marc

I always use 1/2 quality Birch or Maple.

The face frame is solid 3/4 hardwood assembled with pocket screws. I use biscuits to attach the 1/2" plywood to the face frame as well as the top and bottoms.

In the back of the cabinet, I have board running at the bottom...assuming I'm using 3/4 Melamine for the shelves, that leaves me 3/4" for the board. This board is the one that holds most of the weight.

At the top in the back I typically have a 2 1/2" board going across. This is the one that keeps the cabinet from tilting away from the wall. It also carries part of the weight...but it's main job is to keep the cabinet against the wall.

I use 1/8" Luan for the back of the cabinet. I usually don't stain it....just clear coat

 

[yeldogt]

Just to be clear, veneer would only be acceptable on the INTERIORS.

I have done quite a few slab door kitchens in NYC --- simple full overlay doors made out of furniture grade plywood. simple doors with really nice hardware -- great look

 

[jkeyser14]

Usually, thinner plies, means more strength. The only way to get around voids is to buy PREMIUM plywood. Sometimes this marketed a "Baltic" but in the US it does not come from that part of the world.

This is definitely a case of "buyer beware".

Not thin plies, thin veneers. The veneer is only .020" thick on the Home Depot and Lowes plywood. It is very east to sand through of scratch.

 

[jkeyser14]

I suppose if shelf standards are dado'd in then 3/4" would be better, possibly arguably necessary, IDK.

Marc

A 3/8" deep dado on the sides and rear of the carcass, with 3/4" plywood used on all sides is insanely strong. It also has the benefit of giving you perfectly clean corners with no gaps, hides any edge tear out, etc. The overall look is just much cleaner than pocket screws. And with pocket screws, even if you plug them they never visually dissapear due to differences in the grain.

 

[Marctrees]

"Not thin plies, thin veneers. The veneer is only .020" thick on the Home Depot and Lowes plywood. It is very east to sand through of scratch."

Very true.

Fortunately this is a visible issue... but is the only totally visible one.

Potential problems are hidden such as poor lamination adhesion quality control.

That's why I say proven supplier of a proven specific item.

Marc