Question for NEC "Code Lawyers"

[theoldwizard1]

Asking about code and bringing a kitchen built in the 50's (up to date) is kind of irrelevant.

Disagree ! It is very relevant !

If refrigerator and microwave REQUIRED dedicated circuit (by NEC) I would have had to install a new load center !

 

[sparky 1971]

So if the refrigerator is within 6' of the sink, but the receptacle is at "floor" level (and probably behind the refrigerator so it is NOT readily accessible) it does NOT have to be protected, correct ? Can it be on the same circuit as on of the SABC, just upstream of the GFCI receptacle ? (This implies the SABC is NOT "dedicate" to just counter top appliances.)

If the receptacle is within 6' of the sink it is supposed to have GFCI protection. Receptacle height and location have nothing to do with it.

It's possible for a refrigerator to be 4' from the sink but due to the width, the receptacle could be more than 6' away and not require the GFCI. But you should have known that because I posted it in a reply to a quote of yours in post #6.

 

[Steve W.]

I'm not a Code Lawer, Code Nazi or even a Sparky. I just know when NOT to grab the bare wires.
I also realize that "Code" is a MINIMUM.

Recently re-wired our 50's house to bring it up to date. Refrigerator is on its own (non-GFCI) circuit, microwave is on its own circuit (receptacle is accessible beside the microwave), dishwasher is on its own circuit, disposal is on its own circuit. Stove is dual-fuel, with gas burners and electric oven (240v, of course). Three separate circuits feed receptacles on the counter tops. I feel that we are adequately supplied and reasonably safe.

.

 

[mm08822]

If the receptacle is within 6' of the sink it is supposed to have GFCI protection. Receptacle height and location have nothing to do with it.

It's possible for a refrigerator to be 4' from the sink but do to the width, the receptacle could be more than 6' away and not require the GFCI. But you should have known that because I posted it in a reply to a quote of yours in post #6.

Correct......6 ft measured via the shortest path between sink and recept. (any recept) w/o piercing a wall or floor as per 210.8.

 

[dcg9381]

I say refrigerators can indeed be on one of the small appliance branch circuits. 210.52(B)1 agrees with me.

I'm not arguing with NEC. If it's not explicitly denied, it's allowed.

What I'm saying is that you don't WANT the refrigerator to be on a branch circuit.

We have a fridge in the garage and the whole sub-panel is is a "branch" (not speaking factually - overload protection for the generator). When that generator protection took a ****, it took me 3 days to figure out the electricity in the garage was off. Hell of a "fridge mess". Good thing it was on concrete and not a wood floor. After that mess, I installed an audible "power out" alarm as well as a wifi push notification for the whole panel.


Our house fridge has it's own circuit, as does the "garage fridge". Our microwave is "combo" (convection/oven/microwave) so it's 40A. Otherwise, all "major" appliances would get their own circuit.

 

[sparky 1971]

I'm not arguing with NEC. If it's not explicitly denied, it's allowed.

What I'm saying is that you don't WANT the refrigerator to be on a branch circuit.

We have a fridge in the garage and the whole sub-panel is is a "branch" (not speaking factually - overload protection for the generator). When that generator protection took a ****, it took me 3 days to figure out the electricity in the garage was off. Hell of a "fridge mess". Good thing it was on concrete and not a wood floor. After that mess, I installed an audible "power out" alarm as well as a wifi push notification for the whole panel.


Our house fridge has it's own circuit, as does the "garage fridge". Our microwave is "combo" (convection/oven/microwave) so it's 40A. Otherwise, all "major" appliances would get their own circuit.

That's fine but the question is whether or not refrigerators and microwaves need to be on separate circuits, not what is best practice or what would you do. And the only reason I can think of for you to have posted the exceptions would be to justify not using one of the SABC's for the refrigerator.

 

[AA/FC]

Disagree ! It is very relevant !

If refrigerator and microwave REQUIRED dedicated circuit (by NEC) I would have had to install a new load center !

Why? Since when are old homes required to met current NEC codes if you're not making major changes to the house? If you're simply adding a circuit, (for example) you're not required to update the entire electrical system in the house.

Don't get me wrong, I'm not a licensed electrician, but I have recently pulled home owner electrical permits to do minor work and they've never made me change anything that was existing. (and my house is from the mid 1950's, too)

 

[walrus]

Nobody has asked what code cycle he is on? 2023 is all circuits in Kitchen GFCI and AFCI. Even a 50 amp stove circuit is GFCI

 

[Chuckster in NJ]

2023 is all circuits in Kitchen GFCI and AFCI. Even a 50 amp stove circuit is GFCI

Only "IF" the stove has a plug.

 

[sparky 1971]

Nobody has asked what code cycle he is on? 2023 is all circuits in Kitchen GFCI and AFCI. Even a 50 amp stove circuit is GFCI

Only "IF" the stove has a plug.

And only if the range outlet is within 6' of the sink. We don't have to worry about it though, "through 250" was taken out of the 2020 NEC and I got an email that it will stay that way when the 23 gets adopted, but there isn't a date for it yet.

 

[Kezorm]

Only "IF" the stove has a plug.

And only if the range outlet is within 6' of the sink.

Wrong. NEC 2023 requires GFCI for the range. Always. Plug or hardwired doesn't matter. Distance to sink doesn't matter. Here's MN breakdown of the 2023 changes - https://www.dli.mn.gov/sites/default/files/pdf/NECFAQ23.pdf

 

[sparky 1971]

Wrong. NEC 2023 requires GFCI for the range. Always. Plug or hardwired doesn't matter. Distance to sink doesn't matter. Here's MN breakdown of the 2023 changes - https://www.dli.mn.gov/sites/default/files/pdf/NECFAQ23.pdf

I stand corrected. I was going by the 2020 since there is no reason for me to have a 2023 yet. Designers must have started moving ranges far enough from the sink or hardwiring enough that it wasn't the cash cow that the manufacturers expected. It doesn't change anything as far as what I do since 250 volt has been excluded before the adoption date has even been announced. Maybe they will hold off on the 23 long enough that I can get a new to me code book cheap...

 

[Kezorm]

I stand corrected. I was going by the 2020 since there is no reason for me to have a 2023 yet. Designers must have started moving ranges far enough from the sink or hardwiring enough that it wasn't the cash cow that the manufacturers expected. It doesn't change anything as far as what I do since 250 volt has been excluded before the adoption date has even been announced. Maybe they will hold off on the 23 long enough that I can get a new to me code book cheap...

Certainly possible that Iowa will decide to exempt certain appliances, but note that this 210.8(D) refers to specific appliances. "... branch circuit or outlet supplying the following appliances rated 150 volts or less to ground..." I expect your 250V exception relates to receptacles called out in 210.8(A). 250V language doesn't come into play in 210.8(D)

 

[sparky 1971]

I'm wrong again because I was given bad information by a city inspector. I just talked to a friend that is a state inspector and he told me that as of now there are no amendments to the 2023 but the final decision hasn't been made. Here, the State makes the decisions and local jurisdictions follow but can have their own ordnances.

 

[dcg9381]

I'm wrong again because I was given bad information by a city inspector. I just talked to a friend that is a state inspector and he told me that as of now there are no amendments to the 2023 but the final decision hasn't been made.

Does your city code require adherence to 2023 NEC? Around here, they're usually behind by a fair number of years.

 

[Sumboodie]

Neither require separate circuits. But keep in mind that if there's a way for someone to run a coffee maker, toaster and microwave off the same circuit, someone will, and will trip the breaker at the most inopportune moment.

Same goes for the fridge, which really doesn't use all that much power, but you REALLY don't want it losing power unexpectedly. So, no code doesn't call for separate circuits for each, but it's certainly a good idea.

I also wouldn't share the microwave and gas range. That made sense years ago when only the clock, ignitors and oven lights drew any power. Today when you have a 1000W convection element in gas ovens, and your wife's turkey doesn't get done because someone was reheating something in the microwave, you'll think twice about how much power you want to bring to your kitchen.

Why would a gas stove use electric heaters?
What does conventions do?

 

[Sumboodie]

READ the manufacturer installation manual…….. EG: A Sub Zero unit requires a dedicated circuit.
ALL appliances must be installed as per manufacturer installation instructions so "IF" the appliance requires a dedicated circuit it needs dedicated circuit……. Otherwise it can be on one of the two kitchen circuits.

BTW! I am not a "Code Lawyer"………. I am a "Code Nazi"

Highly doubt most are here are buying 10k+ Subzero fridges.

 

[rlitman]

Why would a gas stove use electric heaters?
What does conventions do?

Not the stove top, but gas ovens use gas burners for the broil (top) and bake (bottom) heat (roast uses both), but if they have a convection bake mode, they pre-heat using gas and then switch over to a rear fan that circulates air around the oven past a hidden rear electric heating element. These often draw 10A.

If the oven uses hot surface ignitors (they usually do), they usually draw around 3A each too, though only while the gas is on, so they shouldn't be on at the same time as the convection element.

Here's an example with an air-fry mode that has a 120VAC 15A rating:

GE® 30" Free-Standing Gas Convection Range with No Preheat Air Fry|^|JGB735SPSS

GE Appliances is your home for the best kitchen appliances, home products, parts and accessories, and support.

www.geappliances.com

 

[sparky 1971]

Does your city code require adherence to 2023 NEC? Around here, they're usually behind by a fair number of years.

Not yet, they will when the state decides to adopt it. When licensing was through the city they ran three years behind, now it's supposed to be one year after, but everything got fouled up with Covid. The 2020 should have gone into effect on Jan. 1, 2021 but since the manufacturers couldn't supply the two pole GFCI breakers, 210.8(A) was amended which turned into a fight between the electrical board and at least Siemens and Square D that wound up in front of the state legislature, I don't remember the date that they promised to deliver the breakers, but the adoption was held off until then, but when that date came and we still couldn't get breakers, the state said screw it, we're taking "through 250" out of 210.8(A) and adopted the amended 2020. I got that info first hand from the state inspector that argued the case at the capitol. I don't know about every manufacturer, but Square D is still screwed up as far as supplying material so the plan was to keep the 2023 amended like the 2020, but the kickback has started and they are, or at least were, fighting about it again. When I took my 2023 update class, rumor was that the 2023 might not even get adopted, so I didn't bother getting a code book and definitely didn't pay much attention in the class.

 

[Sumboodie]

Not the stove top, but gas ovens use gas burners for the broil (top) and bake (bottom) heat (roast uses both), but if they have a convection bake mode, they pre-heat using gas and then switch over to a rear fan that circulates air around the oven past a hidden rear electric heating element. These often draw 10A.

If the oven uses hot surface ignitors (they usually do), they usually draw around 3A each too, though only while the gas is on, so they shouldn't be on at the same time as the convection element.

Here's an example with an air-fry mode that has a 120VAC 15A rating:

GE® 30" Free-Standing Gas Convection Range with No Preheat Air Fry|^|JGB735SPSS

GE Appliances is your home for the best kitchen appliances, home products, parts and accessories, and support.

www.geappliances.com

Intetesting.
I bet it's real fun cleaning that blower assembly.

 

[acer66]

Not the stove top, but gas ovens use gas burners for the broil (top) and bake (bottom) heat (roast uses both), but if they have a convection bake mode, they pre-heat using gas and then switch over to a rear fan that circulates air around the oven past a hidden rear electric heating element. These often draw 10A.

If the oven uses hot surface ignitors (they usually do), they usually draw around 3A each too, though only while the gas is on, so they shouldn't be on at the same time as the convection element.

Here's an example with an air-fry mode that has a 120VAC 15A rating:

GE® 30" Free-Standing Gas Convection Range with No Preheat Air Fry|^|JGB735SPSS

GE Appliances is your home for the best kitchen appliances, home products, parts and accessories, and support.

www.geappliances.com

dual-fuel ranges are also a thing.
Cook top gas and oven all electric.

 

[rlitman]

Intetesting.
I bet it's real fun cleaning that blower assembly.

Dunno. My convection oven is "self cleaning". Which translates to your lungs clean the air of all the smoke it releases.

dual-fuel ranges are also a thing.
Cook top gas and oven all electric.

Dual-fuel is real (my parents have had one for a long time now, when we added a gas line where they previously had an electric range), but they don't use a 120V plug, so it's not really relevant to this thread.

 

[walrus]

Maine dropped gfci on 50 amp circuits for stoves for now as they trip constantly. I had a customer move a stove more than 6 ft away from sink as the circuit would trip Every time a burner was turned on. I called manufacturer and they said stove would not work on gfci

 

[walrus]

I’ve got a dual fuel stove at a customers right now. They say it should be on a 30 amp 4 wire circuit yet it comes with 50 amp four wire cord end. I don’t like that they want 50 amp Receptacle on a piece of 10/3 and 30 amp breaker

 

[Norcal]

Why would a gas stove use electric heaters?
What does conventions do?

Gas ranges need power for the igniters, oven light & such.

 

[theoldwizard1]

Our microwave is "combo" (convection/oven/microwave) so it's 40A.

Curious. Is it hardwired ?

 

[theoldwizard1]

I’ve got a dual fuel stove at a customers right now. They say it should be on a 30 amp 4 wire circuit yet it comes with 50 amp four wire cord end. I don’t like that they want 50 amp Receptacle on a piece of 10/3 and 30 amp breaker

You must not like welders that come with a 6-50 plug on a 12/3 cord !

 

[dcg9381]

Curious. Is it hardwired ?

Yes. Might be 50A if that's the quirk here, I'd need to check.
I know it's hardwired because when I designed the cabinet space for it, I did not accommodate the surface mount electrical box. And the electrician put it in the "wrong spot" - the unit has less "depth" on the bottom. Had to cut drywall even relocating it.

 

[acer66]

Dual-fuel is real (my parents have had one for a long time now, when we added a gas line where they previously had an electric range), but they don't use a 120V plug, so it's not really relevant to this thread.

My bad.

 

[sparky 1971]

I’ve got a dual fuel stove at a customers right now. They say it should be on a 30 amp 4 wire circuit yet it comes with 50 amp four wire cord end. I don’t like that they want 50 amp Receptacle on a piece of 10/3 and 30 amp breaker

Why not just use a 8/3 and a 30 amp breaker? That way, when the dual fuel craps out like mine did they can get a regular old slide in electric range like I did, but it was gas. I'm now back to a dual fuel, but mine has a downdraft and I couldn't get one since the old one quit during Covid.

 

[walrus]

You must not like welders that come with a 6-50 plug on a 12/3 cord !

Is there a duty cycle on a stove?

 

[walrus]

Why not just use a 8/3 and a 30 amp breaker? That way, when the dual fuel craps out like mine did they can get a regular old slide in electric range like I did, but it was gas. I'm now back to a dual fuel, but mine has a downdraft and I couldn't get one since the old one quit during Covid.

8/3 isn’t good for 50 amps either, 60 degree column for romex.

 

[sparky 1971]

8/3 isn’t good for 50 amps either, 60 degree column for romex.

So. You could always work a little harder and use 6/3. 8/3 is good for 40 amps, there's no such thing as a 40 amp cord and plug so a 14-50 would be fine. And for a normal slide in electric range of 8-3/4 kw or more, 210.19(A)3 says the minimum circuit size is to be 40 amps.

 

[rlitman]

Is there a duty cycle on a stove?

Sort of, but it's accounted for by the manufacturer's rating. The ampacity requirement in the instructions (what breaker is called for) will likely be well below the current draw when every single resistive element is on, because thermostatic control limits the on-time of oven elements in normal use cases (door closed). And if you leave the door open, you'll probably blow the thermal fuse after enough time, because of the excess heat around the element.

 

[Norcal]

So. You could always work a little harder and use 6/3. 8/3 is good for 40 amps, there's no such thing as a 40 amp cord and plug so a 50 would be fine. And for a normal slide in electric range of 8-3/4 kw or more, 210.19(A)3 says the minimum circuit size is to be 40 amps.

I'll chime in to agree, 40A range circuit is just fine.