Question on building inspection report

[Rudyjr]

Buddy just had his home inspected prior to sale and this item is listed as needing repaired:19) Safety, Repair/Replace, Evaluate - Neutral wires were doubled or bundled together on the neutral bus bar. This is unsafe due to the need to turn off multiple circuit breakers to work on any of the circuits using these wires. A qualified electrician should evaluate and repair as necessary.
I am at a total loss on what the heck this guy is talking about. I have seen a ton of panels that had more than one neutral under a screw on the bus and was always told that this was not an issue. From what I have found online it seems code on this may have been revised in 2002 to one wire. Can someone clarify this for me? Thanks, Jim

 

[nehog]

It is a safety issue. One wire, one screw on the neutral bus.

 

[Mustang51js]

Can't have more than one neutral wire under one screw on the bar, you can do two ground wires under a screw though. If he needs more space he could add a ground bar to the panel and take ground wires off neutral bar and put on ground bar.

 

[jayrush13]

It all depends on if its UL listed for it and what codes your local building dept uses some jurisdictions use the own revised codes some use the NEC some use older versions of the NEC. If its and older panel good luck proving it is UL listed for multiple wires under one screw. I know the ones I have worked on that were listed for that they had to be the same size under one screw

 

[Norcal]

It all depends on if its UL listed for it and what codes your local building dept uses some jurisdictions use the own revised codes some use the NEC some use older versions of the NEC. If its and older panel good luck proving it is UL listed for multiple wires under one screw. I know the ones I have worked on that were listed for that they had to be the same size under one screw

This has nothing to do w/ UL, it is a NEC issue only one neutral conductor under a set screw.


A home inspection is not a building inspection, a HI has no power of enforcement.

 

[jayrush13]

This has nothing to do w/ UL, it is a NEC issue only one neutral conductor under a set screw.


A home inspection is not a building inspection, a HI has no power of enforcement.

Who's to say that they use the NEC its up to any jurisdiction to use what ever code they want. And even if it were allowed by there code it does have to be listed for multiple wires grounds included. So don't think you can automatically go and double up ground wires

And I never once said it was ok just that it was based on the code used in his area and what the panel was listed for

 

[jayrush13]

And if it is an older house and no work has been done in the panel there is no way even a building official can make you change it. At least in the area I am in if it hasn't been altered it does not have to be brought up to current code.

 

[Aceman]

Who's to say that they use the NEC its up to any jurisdiction to use what ever code they want. And even if it were allowed by there code it does have to be listed for multiple wires grounds included. So don't think you can automatically go and double up ground wires

And I never once said it was ok just that it was based on the code used in his area and what the panel was listed for

Based on your reasoning, why do we even cite NEC code on this forum if you're argument will always be it's up to the local jurisdiction?

How many local jurisdictions do you think have taken the time to amend some trivial code article stating how many neutral wires can go under one screw? I'm betting slim to none! Feel free to post links to amendments proving me wrong, I'd love to see them.

By the way, the code reference for this is 408.41.

 

[rockwithjason]

Who's to say that they use the NEC its up to any jurisdiction to use what ever code they want.

name one jurisdiction that doesn't use the nec as it's electrical code reference.

 

[FMC]

B This is unsafe due to the need to turn off multiple circuit breakers to work on any of the circuits using these wires. A qualified electrician should evaluate and repair as necessary.

as they would still be connected to a common mount, single or double what difference can it make besides a possible loose wire? how would this require you to turn off multiple breakers?

 

[Norcal]

Who's to say that they use the NEC its up to any jurisdiction to use what ever code they want. And even if it were allowed by there code it does have to be listed for multiple wires grounds included. So don't think you can automatically go and double up ground wires

And I never once said it was ok just that it was based on the code used in his area and what the panel was listed for

Besides Chicago, who else had their own electrical code? It is a rather involved process to write a code & most common sense people would rather expend their limited resources on other things.

 

[Eriehunter]

as they would still be connected to a common mount, single or double what difference can it make besides a possible loose wire? how would this require you to turn off multiple breakers?

Because, if breaker "A" and breaker "B" have their neutral wires under the same lug and you turn off breaker "A" and go to remove the wire from the neutral bus w/o turning off breaker "B" you could get shocked off the neutral current of "B" if the wire "B" inadvertently came out of the lug while removing "A"

It's mostly a safety issue.

 

[jayrush13]

name one jurisdiction that doesn't use the nec as it's electrical code reference.

Besides Chicago, who else had their own electrical code? It is a rather involved process to write a code & most common sense people would rather expend their limited resources on other things.

I haven't had the pleasure of dealing with every jurisdiction in the whole country just most of Oregon and Washington and they use the NEC as a base and write amendments and specialty codes to supplement.

I'm not from central Ohio and don't plan on ever working there so I don't know what code they use if any

My point is if its an older house you shouldn't have to change it if the code in affect when it was built didn't require it

 

[Norcal]

I haven't had the pleasure of dealing with every jurisdiction in the whole country just most of Oregon and Washington and they use the NEC as a base and write amendments and specialty codes to supplement.

I'm not from central Ohio and don't plan on ever working there so I don't know what code they use if any

My point is if its an older house you shouldn't have to change it if the code in affect when it was built didn't require it

This is a link showing adoptions of the NEC by State by State, scrolling down I see that Looneyland* has adopted the 2011 NEC as has Ohio.

http://www.mikeholt.com/necadoptionlist.php

*Looneyland = Oregon, where the folks too crazy for California go. BTW, has nothing to do w/ you been calling OR, that for close to 30 years, but if Oregon ever adopts a sales tax, then it will be really deserved.

 

[Rudyjr]

Because, if breaker "A" and breaker "B" have their neutral wires under the same lug and you turn off breaker "A" and go to remove the wire from the neutral bus w/o turning off breaker "B" you could get shocked off the neutral current of "B" if the wire "B" inadvertently came out of the lug while removing "A"

It's mostly a safety issue.

This is the only thing I could see causing you to turn off multiple breakers as well. I guess that at some time in the past that this was not code in Ohio because I have seen tons of older panels that had double neutral and ground wires under one screw on a shared bus. Not a big deal to straighten out.

 

[Speedy Petey]

name one jurisdiction that doesn't use the nec as it's electrical code reference.

NY State for one and two family dwellings.

 

[Speedy Petey]

IMO it is NOT a "safety issue". H-I's love to use this as a scare tactic to make their claims seem that much more valid. And the whole turning off more than one breaker to work on something is a load of ****. Other than of course if you had to remove that neutral from the bar.

It IS however a code violation. The reasoning is that different circuits are loaded differently so the conductors will expand and contract at different rates, which in the very long run can loosen the terminal.
I've seen thousands of these in my day, and I cannot remember one that was burnt or loose. I have however seen many individual neutral wire terminations burnt.
This is why I say it is not really a safety issue.

 

[nehog]

IMO it is NOT a "safety issue"...

Oh yes it is...

You have two circuits, with their neutrals coming to one screw. You turn off one circuit, but not the other. That other circuit has a 1500 watt heater plugged into it. That other circuit, with the 1500 watt heater will have the neutral at almost line voltage once it is pulled from the neutral bus. Contact that supposedly safe neutral and you risk electrocution.

 

[theoldwizard1]

The problem with inspections is they don't take into account codes when the building was built. I'm not an expert, but it may be possible that more than one neutral per screw was allowed when it was built. Almost all locations allow you to NOT update to current code unless you are doing remodeling.

If the is the main panel, the neutral and ground bus bares are bonded together, so double up the grounds and move the neutrals over to those emptied screws.

 

[Rudyjr]

The problem with inspections is they don't take into account codes when the building was built. I'm not an expert, but it may be possible that more than one neutral per screw was allowed when it was built. Almost all locations allow you to NOT update to current code unless you are doing remodeling.

If the is the main panel, the neutral and ground bus bares are bonded together, so double up the grounds and move the neutrals over to those emptied screws.

Yep, talked to my 83 year old father last night who was in the trade his whole adult life.He said it was very common to do that years ago. He said the old Pushmatic panels often had things doubled up under every screw on the neutral ground bus that he remembers because of the limited space. The same inspector also flagged the "substandard wiring" on the disposal because it was exposed Romex running to it. He wanted a receptacle and plugged cord on the disposer or BX running to it. My dad said he had never seen anything but Romex run to disposer in his life. I never had until I worked on my daughters 2008 built condo that had a receptacle under the sink.
This house had a major addition put on in 2007 and had extensive electrical and plumbing work done on it as well. All the work was with permits by the general contractor and all of it was passed with final inspections at that time. I think this HI is trying to justify the money the buyers are paying him by nit picking stuff that was more than likely to code when the place was built.

 

[Mustang51js]

That's what home inspectors do, they write every little thing down and try to scare people into fixing things or taking a bunch of money off the sale. I once had a inspector say the sellers had to replace the whole service because when they painted the house they got paint on the service cable. Usually when I fix stuff for sellers if obvious safety stuff or minor things that are easy to fix to make the buyers happy. It's rare that I end up doing everything on the list because most of the time they try and get you to basically rewire half the house,and then the buyers back out lol

 

[Rudyjr]

That's what home inspectors do, they write every little thing down and try to scare people into fixing things or taking a bunch of money off the sale. I once had a inspector say the sellers had to replace the whole service because when they painted the house they got paint on the service cable. Usually when I fix stuff for sellers if obvious safety stuff or minor things that are easy to fix to make the buyers happy. It's rare that I end up doing everything on the list because most of the time they try and get you to basically rewire half the house,and then the buyers back out lol

Yeah most of the stuff was just minor bs stuff that was very easy to fix and if it makes the buyers happy great. Guy wrote a whole paragraph about two open ground receptacles that he supposedly tested and found bad. I used a tester on them and they were both good even checked the connections visually and found nothing wrong. He can't seem to explain why he found them bad. Also claimed that half the receptacles around the sink were not GFCI protected. He didn't see the other GFCI receptacle that protects every other one on the other circuit for the receptacles.

 

[nehog]

... I never had until I worked on my daughters 2008 built condo that had a receptacle under the sink...

My, built in 1984, house has a receptacle under the sink for the disposal.

 

[Cmreschke]

Agree, not a "safety" issue, since you are suppose to shut off the power to the panel in order to do any work on open buss. In order to access the neutral bar you need to remove the cover, which leaves you with open buss, so you should just shut it off.
If you shut it off to work on it then you don't have to worry about any potential other loads, there won't be any.

 

[JohnX14]

I do not see this as something that should be written up on a home inspection as a possible deficiency. It was legal for many years until 2002 and a HI is not a code inspection. And I am not in agreement that it is a safety hazard.

 

[theoldwizard1]

This house had a major addition put on in 2007 and had extensive electrical and plumbing work done on it as well. All the work was with permits by the general contractor and all of it was passed with final inspections at that time.

I'm a little surprised that electrical inspector approved it in 2007, but ...

I re-did my daughter's kitchen 18 months ago. We installed the appropriate number of circuits with GFCIs. To do so required installing 4 tandem breakers. I know I doubled up a lot of grounds, but I don't think I doubled any neutrals. A picky inspector might have forced the installation of a new panel.

 

[theoldwizard1]

That's what home inspectors do, they write every little thing down and try to scare people into fixing things or taking a bunch of money off the sale.

My brother-in-law had an electrician fix a minor issue (2 blacks under one screw. Easy fix. Splice in a pig tail.) The electrician wanted him to replace the entire ground feed with a continuous wire bonded to both side of the water meter. (Surprised that the Sparky did not try to get him to install ground rods.)

Bonding to the closest cold water pipe (copper) and then jumpering the water meter WAS code when the house was built in the late 70s.

 

[69gp]

I have to agree with most people here that HI are a joke. I am in MA and you need to have a journeyman's license to do electrical work here unless you are the home owner and it is a single family home. The HI just generate BS to get paid.

Example of dealing with one bozo HI on my friends house was selling (circa 1955). meet the guy in person to deal with his stupidity.

HI said that all the receptacles needed to be changed in a house because it was an old style 2 prong.(the kitchen was remodeled and had the proper wiring). I asked him to show me in the code where it was a violation. He could not do it.


Said that all the old 2 wire romex needed to be brought up to date. once again I asked him to show me in the code where it was a violation. He could not do it.

House had a 100 Amp fused panel and said that it had to be replaced. Sure its nice having breakers but its not a code violation to have fuses. I asked him to show me in the code where it was a violation. He could not do it.

The kicker was when he took the 4 screws off the main panel to do his inspection and put them back in. There was a #6 wire that feed a sub panel that he must have moved around a little because one of the screws pierced the wire. Hence why i was there. I only live about 10 minutes away and my friend called me to come and check it out. So the way I seen it he was doing electrical work without a license. And I told him that was a code violation and I can show you that in the code if you want.

Needles to say he did not make any money for this inspection. none of the items listed above were in his report and I got a service call out of it.

 

[Charles (in GA)]

I have no use for home inspectors. They are not licensed, and most do not have any trade licenses such as Electrical or Plumbing. They show up with a flashlight, a mirror, a plug in receptacle tester, and a garden hose to flush the water heater (and cause a leak at the drain valve).

First house I ever bought. Built about 1970. Brick house, only about 900 sq/ft. House had aluminum wiring but I didn't know it at the time. Shortly after moving in, my parents stopped by. My mother commented that she could hear "sizzling" in one room. Dad and I pooh-poohed her, but after they left, I took a screwdriver and pulled a receptacle cover and found one side of the receptacle burned and the wire burned. Wire came from the breaker to the first receptacle, jumped up and over to the next one, up and over to the third one and then the fourth one.

Home Inspector who had done the inspection was a city fireman, They work 7 days on, 7 days off, so they all had second jobs. The inspector had found two receptacles with hot and neutral reversed. The owners had him come back later and repair this, and a nearly frozen kitchen faucet cartridge.

After I found the first burned wire, I pulled all of the receptacles to look for more. One of the burned ones, was one that the wires were reversed on. The inspector/fireman had swapped the burned wire onto the unburned terminal, and the unburned wire onto the burned terminal................ and didn't inform anyone..............

I replaced all of the receptacles with Co/Alr ones, and used anti-corrosive paste on the terminations. I then set about rewiring the house, one room at a time. I ran a wire from the breaker to a 4x4 junction box in the attic, and spidered wires from the junction to each receptacle. I had about half the house done when I sold it, and I disclosed all of this to the buyer.

Charles

 

[theoldwizard1]

...and a garden hose to flush the water heater (and cause a leak at the drain valve).

I have heard this !

If you don't annually flush your hot water heater, don't start. Those drains are notorious for not re-sealing !

 

[walrus]

www.nachi.org This is the organization of home inspectors, go take the test so you can be one also.. I took the test once before, its a joke. anyone with any experience in the trades will pass it easily

 

[JohnX14]

The underlying problem is that all one is hiring (sort of) is a HI's opinion. If a HI thinks 2 prong outlets should be changed to 3 prong, so be it. Now it comes down to whether the seller wants to cave. If he does, the work gets done. If not, buyer can walk, pay for it himself, or live with it as is.

The problem is that this is all going on during the most expensive purchase of one's life presumably, and one of the most stressful times.

 

[TractorJeff]

I had a House Inspector for my benefit on a possible purchase(bargaining chip). It worked well as they caved on a lot of the stuff. Next house I used lots of his tactics to drive down price.
The HI was previously a house painter, so some stuff he knew, the rest came from studying.

 

[malibu101]

I had a House Inspector for my benefit on a possible purchase(bargaining chip). It worked well as they caved on a lot of the stuff. Next house I used lots of his tactics to drive down price.
The HI was previously a house painter, so some stuff he knew, the rest came from studying.

Yep.
The buyer gets the potential house inspected by a home inspector, not the seller.
Assuming the inspector finds some "deficiencies", it gives the buyer an extra bargaining chip.

 

[david63]

Its just code. But it has nothing to do with getting electrocuted by another live circuit. Its a BUS. ANY current / Voltage on ANY wire on the bus could feed back. But its normally NEUTRAL so no voltage potential normally exists there. Take a meter reading from neutral to ground and you will see what i mean. Neutral to Hot yes, you get voltage, neutral to ground and none.