Questions for 4-3 romex?

[Redwolf947]

Please note I am done with this project but have new questions at the end of this thread..


Going to be running 4-3 romex from basement up to the attic then over to garage down to sub-panel.. What type of staples/straps should I use?

I plan to drop the wire from the attic to the basement (seems the easiest course to take) can I install a conduit bell into the hole I drill to help keep the wires casing from getting messed up?

How hard would it be to run it thru the joists in the basement? I would only have to go thru 4 or 5 i think.. Any other pointers? Suggestions?

(As a note in my attic the ceiling joists run properly from the roof eves but they put another set of what I'd call joists running longways perpendicular to the others? I plan to attach this run to the latter.)

Please if any info is needed I'll do my best to provide it. looking for guidance please.

 

[75gmck25]

I ran 6/3 romex for a kitchen range through my basement floor joists without any real difficulty. Just make sure the holes are a little bigger than the wiring, and snap a line across the joist to keep the holes lined up enough so that you can pull the wire through easier. I also used some wire pulling lubricant to reduce the friction on the jacket.

Do you have an open chase where you are running it to the attic? The point where the wiring changes direction 90 degrees (across to basement to attic) is the hardest to work with unless you have a helper. One person in the basement needs to pull the wire across through the joist and keep it from kinking or binding at the 90 degree turn, while someone else pulls it straight up to the attic.

There may be standard wire staples that would work for 4/3 wire, but there are also many sizes of screw-down u-shaped wire clamps. You only need a few clamps to hold it in place if most of the run is across through the joists.

Bruce

 

[zmaxmotorsports]

4-3 or 14/3?

 

[Mustang51js]

They make oversized staples,or just use 2 hole pvc straps. Is this aluminum or copper wire

 

[rockwithjason]

no need for fitting unless there are sharp metal edges that can cut the wire. wood or concrete are not much of a threat unless you try to fit 10lb of **** in a 1lb bag.

 

[Redwolf947]

I ran 6/3 romex for a kitchen range through my basement floor joists without any real difficulty. Just make sure the holes are a little bigger than the wiring, and snap a line across the joist to keep the holes lined up enough so that you can pull the wire through easier. I also used some wire pulling lubricant to reduce the friction on the jacket.

Do you have an open chase where you are running it to the attic? The point where the wiring changes direction 90 degrees (across to basement to attic) is the hardest to work with unless you have a helper. One person in the basement needs to pull the wire across through the joist and keep it from kinking or binding at the 90 degree turn, while someone else pulls it straight up to the attic.

There may be standard wire staples that would work for 4/3 wire, but there are also many sizes of screw-down u-shaped wire clamps. You only need a few clamps to hold it in place if most of the run is across through the joists.

Bruce

Thanks for the reply.. I do have a great helper my GF she usually does pretty good and follows my direction... Good plan on snapping a line... Yes I'm going thru a wall cavity that I know there isn't anything else running thru. Going to drop a string with a weight on it to basement trying to measure so the holes line up should be easy.. Good deal on the clamps thanks..

 

[Redwolf947]

4-3 or 14/3?

The wire I bought is 4/3 Romex to run a 60a Sub in my garage.

Sorry I was going off a website that denotes the wire as 4-3 romex not 4/3.. But the wire denotes it as 4/3.. Guess it helps to be more thorough sorry.

 

[Redwolf947]

They make oversized staples,or just use 2 hole pvc straps. Is this aluminum or copper wire

*The wire is Copper

Thanks, I was hoping to use the plastic 2 hole clamps/straps or the 1 1/4" plastic staples for PVC..

Its a 80+ foot run mostly in the attic. Maybe I'll post some pics this weekend.

 

[Redwolf947]

no need for fitting unless there are sharp metal edges that can cut the wire. wood or concrete are not much of a threat unless you try to fit 10lb of **** in a 1lb bag.

So in other words make the damn holes big enough in the first place?

The wire is approx 1" in diameter, should I use 1 1/4" or 1 1/2" holes?

 

[Redwolf947]

OK more questions. I figure I'll ask here and not start another thread. This is the last knockout I have for adding my sub-panel. Unless I move the existing work/sump pump outlet down under the main panel which is doable.

View media item 48881
OK another view. Please note the right most 1/2" conduit will be removed and transferred to the sub-panel to the left of the main.

View media item 48882
Kinda tight but can I run the cable out of the box and up to the joists without conduit like the previous owner did with the 8/3?

View media item 48883
Some of the wires you see that look kinda short will be removed soon too sense some go to the garage.

Any comments, suggestions, pictures of what you've done?

I can take pics if needed.. Thanks...

 

[sberry]

You already have a couple cables, why mess with another pipe. Its one of the reasons you bought a cable.

 

[jvitez]

The wire I bought is 4/3 Romex to run a 60a Sub in my garage.

Hold on a minute there Baba Looey. 4/3 Romex is good for 95 amps. If your subpanel load only requires 60 amps you'll be good with 6/3, which would be way easier for an 80 ft pull.

Correction: I was looking at the 90° column. 4/3 is good for 85 amps using the 75° column, and 70 amps using the 60° column.

 

[Redwolf947]

sberry.. I wasn't sure about "protecting" the cable..

Let me ask this...... The previous person to do electrical work used short chunks of conduit to get the (nm-b) wire up to the joist cavity was that needed? Or could I mount a board above the boxes use a clamp then staple the wires to the board (using nm staples)?

 

[Redwolf947]

Hold on a minute there Baba Looey. 4/3 Romex is good for 95 amps. If your subpanel load only requires 60 amps you'll be good with 6/3, which would be way easier for an 80 ft pull.

Correction: I was looking at the 90° column. 4/3 is good for 85 amps using the 75° column, and 70 amps using the 60° column.

Yea I see the 70a QO breaker @ $45 is twice the cost of a 60a @ $16 ehh this way at least I know if I need a heaver load I can up the breaker to 70a.. I doubt I'll need that tho.

Baba Looey??

 

[jvitez]

Sorry, I forget the generation gap: Quick Draw McGraw cartoon, his sidekick. "Hold on a minute there, Baba Looey." "I'll do the thinin' around here." "El-kabong!" Just reliving my childhood.

https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Quick_Draw_McGraw

https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Baba_Looey

 

[Redwolf947]

Sorry, I forget the generation gap: Quick Draw McGraw cartoon, his sidekick. "Hold on a minute there, Baba Looey." "I'll do the thinin' around here." "El-kabong!" Just reliving my childhood.

https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Quick_Draw_McGraw

https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Baba_Looey

Ahh yes I have seen some of those cartoons a long time ago just didn't ring a bell..

 

[Redwolf947]

When running romex in PVC does it have to be sch 80?

 

[zmaxmotorsports]

So in other words make the damn holes big enough in the first place?

The wire is approx 1" in diameter, should I use 1 1/4" or 1 1/2" holes?

What size are the joists youre drilling through,Is the area readily accessable?

 

[OccupantRJ]

no need for fitting unless there are sharp metal edges that can cut the wire. wood or concrete are not much of a threat unless you try to fit 10lb of **** in a 1lb bag.

I refer to that situation as a blivet.

 

[pattenp]

When running romex in PVC does it have to be sch 80?

No. Unless subject to damage.

 

[Redwolf947]

OK thanks..

 

[Redwolf947]

What size are the joists youre drilling through,Is the area readily accessable?

2x10 joists. I do work with wood in the basement occasionally.

I plan to run thru the joists in the basement routing up thru a wall and across attic. I'm still itchy from crawling around in the breezeway attic yesterday learning where I can drill holes to connect the two attics and trying to figure out where the existing wires run so I can pull them back thru.

I was thinking where the run exits into the garage at the ceiling putting in a short chunk of 1-1/4 in. sch 40 with a LB Non-Metallic Conduit Body then PVC conduit to the top of the box. Tho as I'm digging deeper in the the cleanup of the garage I'm finding more ways to run it I'll take pictures. I'm planning to take more pics along the way and maybe do a thread on it. It wont be as nice as some I've seen on here but Ehh I'll do what I can.

 

[pattenp]

It is permissible to run the #4 Romex along the bottom edges of the floor joist. You do not have to run it through bored holes unless you want to.

 

[Redwolf947]

It is permissible to run the #4 Romex along the bottom edges of the floor joist. You do not have to run it through bored holes unless you want to.

I had found that info while digging around in the NEC. I haven't decided If I'm going to go thru the trouble. I could always nail up a couple of 2x2 runners to protect it.

 

[Redwolf947]

This is what I ended up doing.. rearranging some in the main panel.

View media item 52823
View media item 52821
View media item 52822
figured I'd update this for others..

 

[wyliesdiesels]

Hold on a minute there Baba Looey. 4/3 Romex is good for 95 amps. If your subpanel load only requires 60 amps you'll be good with 6/3, which would be way easier for an 80 ft pull.

Correction: I was looking at the 90° column. 4/3 is good for 85 amps using the 75° column, and 70 amps using the 60° column.

NM-b wire ampacity is limited to the 60* c ampacity. So 4/3 NM-b can be protected with a max size OCPD of 70a...

 

[Norcal]

Hold on a minute there Baba Looey. 4/3 Romex is good for 95 amps. If your subpanel load only requires 60 amps you'll be good with 6/3, which would be way easier for an 80 ft pull.

Correction: I was looking at the 90° column. 4/3 is good for 85 amps using the 75° column, and 70 amps using the 60° column.

4/3 NM is sized from the sixty degree column as is all NM cable.

 

[Redwolf947]

Ok I've been done with this project for a long time. I have recently changed my ceiling height and have a problem. Let me cut to the chase can I drill a 1" hole thru a double 2x6 rafter to run this 4/3 Romex safely to my subpanel?

 

[simpler=better]

Probably. Center the hole in the 6" direction. In the long direction, DO NOT put the hole in the center 1/3 of the board.

If you're paranoid, sister it up. Use liquid nails and a handful of 3" deck screws to attach a 3ft or 4ft long section of 2x6 to the existing rafter, such that you will be drilling through a triple 2x6. It's probably not needed but would help me sleep at night (and I'm a hack).

 

[theoldwizard1]

Probably. Center the hole in the 6" direction. In the long direction, DO NOT put the hole in the center 1/3 of the board.

I think you have that backwards ! Ask any architect/structural engineer and they will tell you the stress on a loaded "beam" supported on each end are lowest in the center of the beam. The top edge is in compression and the bottom is in tension.

(WOW, some of the stuff from college 40+ years ago actually stuck !)

 

[Redwolf947]

I may just drill it I don't think I have enough wire to reach over the new joists and back to the breaker box.

 

[simpler=better]

Errr, you know what I meant! Don't drill it in a place that will snap


If you can run it without drilling anything, but come up short-would you be against throwing a junction box somewhere accessible? A 8x8 PVC box + some split nuts and rubber tape isn't too pricey

 

[dave*99]

I think you have that backwards ! Ask any architect/structural engineer and they will tell you the stress on a loaded "beam" supported on each end are lowest in the center of the beam. The top edge is in compression and the bottom is in tension.

(WOW, some of the stuff from college 40+ years ago actually stuck !)

IRC 502.8.1 which applies to floor joists in residential construction says no drilling in the center 1/3 of the joist span.

 

[Redwolf947]

Errr, you know what I meant! Don't drill it in a place that will snap


If you can run it without drilling anything, but come up short-would you be against throwing a junction box somewhere accessible? A 8x8 PVC box + some split nuts and rubber tape isn't too pricey

I'm not against that if I have to. Heck I have a box I could use. Thanks I'll keep that in mind. Hope I don't have to do it that way tho..

 

[Redwolf947]

IRC 502.8.1 which applies to floor joists in residential construction says no drilling in the center 1/3 of the joist.

Yep some where I have that in a diagram form for floor joists. I need to know about rafters? I can't seem to find anything? I see in a lot of places people saying it shouldn't be done but I can't seem to find it in the NEC

 

[dave*99]

Yep some where I have that in a diagram form for floor joists. I need to know about rafters? I can't seem to find anything? I see in a lot of places people saying it shouldn't be done but I can't seem to find it in the NEC

I think you need to look in the IRC not the NEC for that info. Also, I must say in reading this thread I mistakenly thought you were moving the cable in the photos from its position under the joists to bored holes in the joists.

It took a second read to figure out the photos do not apply to your latest question, which I think refers to a roof rafter not shown in the photos. Did I get that right this time?

 

[Redwolf947]

I think you need to look in the IRC not the NEC for that info. Also, I must say in reading this thread I mistakenly thought you were moving the cable in the photos from its position under the joists to bored holes in the joists.

It took a second read to figure out the photos do not apply to your latest question, which I think refers to a roof rafter not shown in the photos. Did I get that right this time?

That is correct. I'll snap a pic today if I can.

 

[Redwolf947]

View media item 61078
View media item 61077
A couple pics hope this shows my issue.

The pic doesn't show to we'll but,
I don't want to sneak the wire thru over the one rafter because that's a roof valley and may get a nail in the wires if a new roof is done!