6t7gto
Well-known member
What's the best and easiest to use replacement for r22?
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R22 replacement
- Thread starter 6t7gto
- Start date
monkeyspanners
Well-known member
Assuming its an air con application for the typical USA ducted system, best would probably be R407C but will require POE oil, easiest would be something like R438A as it will work with mineral oil.
In either case, adjustment or replacement of the expansion device may be needed plus replacement of any components with elastomeric seals.
In either case, adjustment or replacement of the expansion device may be needed plus replacement of any components with elastomeric seals.
Bluedodge
Well-known member
Liquid propane.
Liquid propane.
This is something I have always wanted to try, supposedly the working pressures are close enough to r22 that it is a drop in replacement.
One thing I've wondered is if there could be problems because of excessive water in the mix if you use a fuel grade propane.
I'm sure someone will try to say its a bomb. but a few lbs of propane is way down on the list of dangerous stuff in your house.
ipdaley
Active member
Propane is a drop in for R-22. I was a design engineer at my last job (a major HVAC OEM; worked on split systems; capacity < 65,000 BTUH). You can evacuate the system, charge with R-22, and turn it on. No changing orifices or TXVs. One of the guys is advanced R&D did so in a test cell. System performed flawlessly.
Does that mean I would do it? NO. Does that mean I would advise you to do it? NO. Sooner or later most systems develop leaks. a champagne leak would probably not be of concern for a flammability standpoint. there must be a minimum concentration of gas to combust. My concern would be a catastrophic leak... say a kid playing near the condenser punctures the outdoor coil and then there is a spark...
I am aware ASHRAE is developing new classifications for refrigerants "flammable", "mildly-flammable" etc. Some of the mildly-flammable refrigerants look like good alternatives to R410a (the next generation of residential refrigerants). My understanding is these mildly-flammable refrigerants WILL combust in an open flame but will not support combustion. That is as long has you hold a torch on them, they burn. remove the torch and the combustion stops.
Just because you can do something does not mean you should. I am a strong believer is Murphy's Law, "Anything that can go wrong, will go wrong." Please do not put propane in your R-22 system. Not worth the risk. If your R-22 system is in working order, spend the $$$ and get some reclaimed R-22. I would prefer to use virgin R-22 (may be difficult to find) but the risk of using propane is too high. Just don't do it.
that is my two cents. just remember advise is worth what you pay for it.
Does that mean I would do it? NO. Does that mean I would advise you to do it? NO. Sooner or later most systems develop leaks. a champagne leak would probably not be of concern for a flammability standpoint. there must be a minimum concentration of gas to combust. My concern would be a catastrophic leak... say a kid playing near the condenser punctures the outdoor coil and then there is a spark...
I am aware ASHRAE is developing new classifications for refrigerants "flammable", "mildly-flammable" etc. Some of the mildly-flammable refrigerants look like good alternatives to R410a (the next generation of residential refrigerants). My understanding is these mildly-flammable refrigerants WILL combust in an open flame but will not support combustion. That is as long has you hold a torch on them, they burn. remove the torch and the combustion stops.
Just because you can do something does not mean you should. I am a strong believer is Murphy's Law, "Anything that can go wrong, will go wrong." Please do not put propane in your R-22 system. Not worth the risk. If your R-22 system is in working order, spend the $$$ and get some reclaimed R-22. I would prefer to use virgin R-22 (may be difficult to find) but the risk of using propane is too high. Just don't do it.
that is my two cents. just remember advise is worth what you pay for it.
theoldwizard1
Well-known member
If you have an R22 system, bite the bullet and replace it. Modern A/C systems are more efficient anyway.
redneckcharlie
Well-known member
- Joined
- Dec 26, 2009
- Messages
- 125
If you have an R22 system, bite the bullet and replace it. Modern A/C systems are more efficient anyway.
Please explain this. Last time I had a meter on two identically sized systems, one r22 one 410, there draw was very similar. Im referrn to similar seer ratings. Replacing a system for the latest when simple maintenance is all thats needed is neither prudent nor financially smart.
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I would not do propane, imagine you have a leaking evaporator in your attic and next to that is a gas water heater what could possibly go wrong?
Well first off the old wizard is right, for your home just get new system, they are more efficient anyway and you pretty much get 10 year warranty on most MFG compressors.
But for a work shop its a little hard to justify spending thousands on replacement when you may not use it regularly.
So for those guys - 407c can be a good solution, but you should change oil in compressor from mineral to PolyEster oil for it to work properly. Remove compressor, pour out mineral, replace with POE. Recharge system with 407c - done!
I work for an OEM service division and We do it often for customers.
R22 is expensive and going up all the time. 407c is not expensive. Conversion is cheaper than recharging with r22.
This is not us, but this YouTube is pretty spot on for a solution if you can't afford upgrading to new 410a system.
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Well first off the old wizard is right, for your home just get new system, they are more efficient anyway and you pretty much get 10 year warranty on most MFG compressors.
But for a work shop its a little hard to justify spending thousands on replacement when you may not use it regularly.
So for those guys - 407c can be a good solution, but you should change oil in compressor from mineral to PolyEster oil for it to work properly. Remove compressor, pour out mineral, replace with POE. Recharge system with 407c - done!
I work for an OEM service division and We do it often for customers.
R22 is expensive and going up all the time. 407c is not expensive. Conversion is cheaper than recharging with r22.
This is not us, but this YouTube is pretty spot on for a solution if you can't afford upgrading to new 410a system.
Sent from my iPhone using Tapatalk
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Firebrick43
Well-known member
I am amazed at the people terrified at propane. It's a great refrigerant, put it in a lot of tractors and a few cars. Any ways it has a higher flash point than gasoline and people don't think twice of keeping it around in their garage or driving a car that could possibly get in a wreck.
Also your furnace, water heater, drier, and stove "could" all develop leaks as well? Most a coil leaks a very slow and would not pose any issues.
Also your furnace, water heater, drier, and stove "could" all develop leaks as well? Most a coil leaks a very slow and would not pose any issues.
Yes gas appliances could also develop leaks, but you forgot to point out that a natural gas line pressure after the meter/regulator is inches of water column (for those not versed it is less than 1 pound of pressures).
Your r22 a/c compressor is pumping up over 200lbs (some over 300lbs in hot weather).
A rupture would be quite different amounts of gasses released.
I'm not saying propane won't work well and a leak (yes, most likely slow) would probably never cause issue (in spite of the hot water heater lighting off within feet of it [emoji849])
You are right that most folks think propane bad - convincing them otherwise is a loosing battle.
I personally don't want propane pumped into the thin walled copper tubing of an a/c evaporator coil in "MY" attic or a/c closet.
I worked on a butane system in a marathon plant in Reserve Louisiana (look it up), its funny how they keep the butane out in a field and you are required to use only brass/bronze or non sparking tools tools to work on it. Your permit to work on it clearly states no open flames or smoking within hundreds of feet. I wonder why?[emoji848]
Admit it, pumping propane into your attic or a/c closet is more dangerous than other refrigerants.
It works, it's just more dangerous!
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Your r22 a/c compressor is pumping up over 200lbs (some over 300lbs in hot weather).
A rupture would be quite different amounts of gasses released.
I'm not saying propane won't work well and a leak (yes, most likely slow) would probably never cause issue (in spite of the hot water heater lighting off within feet of it [emoji849])
You are right that most folks think propane bad - convincing them otherwise is a loosing battle.
I personally don't want propane pumped into the thin walled copper tubing of an a/c evaporator coil in "MY" attic or a/c closet.
I worked on a butane system in a marathon plant in Reserve Louisiana (look it up), its funny how they keep the butane out in a field and you are required to use only brass/bronze or non sparking tools tools to work on it. Your permit to work on it clearly states no open flames or smoking within hundreds of feet. I wonder why?[emoji848]
Admit it, pumping propane into your attic or a/c closet is more dangerous than other refrigerants.
It works, it's just more dangerous!
Sent from my iPhone using Tapatalk
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I'm not sure that logic holds up. Sure the propane in a refrigeration system would be under higher pressure, but the leak would be limited to whatever the system is charged with. Probably just a few pounds for most residential systems.A rupture would be quite different amounts of gasses released.
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On the other hand the even though a NG line has a relatively low pressure, it has a nearly unlimited supply.
I have also been told many traditional refrigerants and create some nasty gases when passed though a flame. I cannot confirm that but perhaps someone else knows?
Don't get me wrong I'm sure using propane in a system not designed for it has risks. I'm just not sure that it is any more dangerous than numerous other thing we all deal with on a day to day basis.
I though I would add some fuel to the fire... Is that a pun? hehe
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Dagny
Well-known member
Please don't put propane in any system. If i come to work on it and have to recover it it will contaminate my recovery machine and cylinders.
Dagny
Well-known member
I think at some point propane will be common as a refrigerant but it will be in better piping systems like the ammonia and hydrogen in camper refrigerators.
Please don't put propane in any system. If i come to work on it and have to recover it it will contaminate my recovery machine and cylinders.
Even worse is going to be all the contaminated refrigerant from the guys that think they can top off a system with one of the drop ins.
Last time we had to dispose of mixed refrigerant it was around 50$ a pound.
The supply issues that have raised the price on 410a will affect all of the 400 series refrigerants so some of the drop ins may not be so economical.
If you use a drop in or ANY alternative refrigerant please label the equipment very well.
Hubscrub66
Well-known member
In my job as a refrigation tech in a factory that builds resturant equipment. 90% of our units we manufacture is 404 rest 134a. But we are quickly switching to propane we have a current order for a popular fast food chain they want thousands of propane refrigerators. With most of our builds will be propane in the future our customers are wanting the "green" alternative.
Milton Shaw
Well-known member
- Joined
- Feb 11, 2011
- Messages
- 4,856
I thought R426 or R427 was the approved replacement for R22. R22 is now $650 or so a jug and the R426 is about $200 from what I remember. I would not recommend propane in any unit . First off because you are already having problems with a leak. Since propane is heavier than air its going to be in the lowest point in the house and could blow the house up. I am sure your insurance and fire department would not be happy to hear you have propane leaking in the house on purpose.
LS6 Tommy
Well-known member
Liquid propane.
Not UL approved for the application. Nothing flammable is. Propane has an approved designation number and has been classified for flammability and toxicity as a refrigerant by ASHRAE, but it is not certified for comfort cooling applications.
Tommy
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Reason I asked is because I oversee quite a few rental properties.
The owner supplies me with a list of preferred contractors.
The HVAC fella keeps telling me R22 is $800.00 a 30lb jug.
I can get it thru my son for $400.00 a jug.
Then this replacement thought came to mind.
I will have a price on 407C today.
Thanks for the replies.
p.s. This only for systems that have a very small leak.
Just looked up the records on one property.
Spent a total of $960 for 2015 & 2016 for topping off the system.
I have another fella gonna try to locate and fix leak, if possible.
The owner supplies me with a list of preferred contractors.
The HVAC fella keeps telling me R22 is $800.00 a 30lb jug.
I can get it thru my son for $400.00 a jug.
Then this replacement thought came to mind.
I will have a price on 407C today.
Thanks for the replies.
p.s. This only for systems that have a very small leak.
Just looked up the records on one property.
Spent a total of $960 for 2015 & 2016 for topping off the system.
I have another fella gonna try to locate and fix leak, if possible.
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eddieK
Well-known member
What's the best and easiest to use replacement for r22?
I've had the best success with M099 (R438a)...direct drop in. Works best as a complete system change out...but it does also work if you are shy about 10% or less.
eddieK
Well-known member
Reason I asked is because I oversee quite a few rental properties.
The owner supplies me with a list of preferred contractors.
The HVAC fella keeps telling me R22 is $800.00 a 30lb jug.
I can get it thru my son for $400.00 a jug.
Then this replacement thought came to mind.
I will have a price on 407C today.
Thanks for the replies.
p.s. This only for systems that have a very small leak.
You could get it for that...it has recently jumped up again.
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eddieK
Well-known member
If you have an R22 system, bite the bullet and replace it. Modern A/C systems are more efficient anyway.
Of course it is...buyt at the cost for the install, if you get an fau with an EMC motor, two stage heat etc...it would take years to get it back.
R22 just transfers latent heat better.