theoldwizard1
Well-known member
I don't understand your statement. how is moisture not directly related to relative humidity ?
A good friend has radiant heat in his house. Even with multiple humidifiers, his house is as dry as Death Valley !
Radiant Slab vs. Everything Else
- Thread starter Crazy68Dart
- Start date
I don't understand your statement. how is moisture not directly related to relative humidity ?
A good friend has radiant heat in his house. Even with multiple humidifiers, his house is as dry as Death Valley !
BadgerBoilerMN
Well-known member
Amen brother.
I lust for warm feet!
I lust for warm feet!
True but it all comes down to that person and his priorities, there is nothing wrong with spending $15K on the system to heat a garage, but some people may rather spend $3K to heat and cool it, and then the other $12k on something else..
For instance if a garage before mechanical cost $30 per sq foot {weather tight with a floor}, and the difference between a hanging furnace and radiant system was $10K I would much rather have another -350 sq feet of building vs radiant heating... If your building is 30 feet long thats almost another 12 feet of building!!!!
To me that is a no brainer, now I have radiant but that is because its what I do, lol... I seen people build a 24x32 garage with radiant I installed when I know they could have went much larger on the building and just used a hanging or package unit for climate. BUT its all in the persons "wants", me having both systems and being familiar with them and knowing how much hobby/home garages get used I would opt for more space given the option...
My neighbor {well about 1/4 mile away, he came over to see if I was selling a tractor i had outside and since we have been friendly} finished a building last september, I helped him with his package unit {3 ton/lp heat}.
His detached is 40x32, he finished the inside walls, all insulated, he put skylights, has 2 tvs in there, a couch, an awesome compressor {IR 7.5 hp 80 with an extra 80 ga tank next to it and on top of the second 80 instead of a pump he has an IR air dryer, its really cool...}, and he has a paint booth...
http://www.autobodytoolmart.com/col-met-crossdraft-value-paint-booth-p-18826.aspx
similar to that one, we were talking about costs, because it looks like it would be very expensive to own a garage like that, and he said since he built most of it himself, watched what he spent, shopped around, he spent under $45K on everything including the compressors, booth, and hvac... Its a very nice building, bathroom, kitchen {small}.... Now I would charge around $15K+ to install a mod con and radiant in that building, that would have been a big part of his budget!!!!
No one is wrong, when someone asks about radiant I like to mention package units and furnaces, because a lot of people dont think of them for home garages and they can be a good option. If someone here spent the money on radiant ther eis nothing wrong with that, its awesome, and they shouldn't take someone giving other options personally, be happy with what you bought, radiant is really nice, but some one else may rather have a paint booth and a nice compressor with a simple package unit instead...
If I were doing it over-
Radiant $16K vs.
3 ton heat pump package unit with ac and 95% gas burner $3300
WITH a
IR 7.5hp 80ga $2K
IR air dryer $700
Paint booth $6000
and
forward dp10 lift $3K
that would still leave $1000+ for a nice waterborne painting setup, dryer guns and paint guns...
I would be in hot rod heaven with that, I send my paint out because I am blind and can't paint to save my life, lol... But it would still be nice too have, I would have my buddy come to my house to paint my projects, and I wouldnt have to tow them down there and then tow them back after paint...
Thats just what I would do, others may have other wants like a sick tile floor, super nice rack system, miller tig, mig, plasma cutter, or snap-on tool box...
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BadgerBoilerMN
Well-known member
Well said Jon.
But the more building you have the more you have to condition and the if you want to paint cars the last thing you want is air blowing dust around your booth.
Most of our design decisions are based on the local climate and the customer's intended use. Colder climates rarely go without radiant floors or tube heaters and warmer/wetter climates naturally need some AC for dehumidification if nothing else.
I have LP, great electric rates, wood and drive radiant floors, walls, ceilings with hydronic boilers. But I also have a twin head mini split inverter with a COP above three (running 10 cents/kw for 3.5 cents) running my office and clean shop.
No cooling in the garage at all, just ventilation for welding etc., which brings up another important point. If you build a garage you will find it tighter and more efficient than most houses. This can be a hazard, especially if you are living in it, with welding, cutting, cooking or worse of all, burning fuel with combustion air from inside the space.
But I don't have a car to restore yet...
Proper heating and cooling loads are the first clue.
But the more building you have the more you have to condition and the if you want to paint cars the last thing you want is air blowing dust around your booth.
Most of our design decisions are based on the local climate and the customer's intended use. Colder climates rarely go without radiant floors or tube heaters and warmer/wetter climates naturally need some AC for dehumidification if nothing else.
I have LP, great electric rates, wood and drive radiant floors, walls, ceilings with hydronic boilers. But I also have a twin head mini split inverter with a COP above three (running 10 cents/kw for 3.5 cents) running my office and clean shop.
No cooling in the garage at all, just ventilation for welding etc., which brings up another important point. If you build a garage you will find it tighter and more efficient than most houses. This can be a hazard, especially if you are living in it, with welding, cutting, cooking or worse of all, burning fuel with combustion air from inside the space.
But I don't have a car to restore yet...
Proper heating and cooling loads are the first clue.
Thats the nice thing about a furnace system, you add 400 sq feet to the design you dont add any if much cost to the hvac, you add 400 sq ft to a radiant system and you add cost and labor...
If I paint cars it will be in a booth, since you can buy booths for around $5K now {brand new} I see them in hobby garages a lot more than I ever did before. They also make great closed off storage, a friend of mine keeps his 70 cuda in his booth when hes not painting something.
As far as air blowing around, again its a closed booth and I am getting the feeling you never seen a heated draft paint booth, I have yet to see one heated with hydronics, lol They use furnaces and circulate the air thats how a booth works.. Most that I have seen have an oil or gas burner and a fan...
radiant is great, I don't argue that, but it comes with a cost and has its limits, and a lot of us here aren't pros that can write our garages off on tax returns, its a hobby, making the most out of it with the money we set aside to play with is what makes sense. We all have priorities and most normal people when given the choice between heat or heat/cool/air filtration with a lift, welder, tool box, and air compressor having warm feet may take a back seat more than you would expect...
volleyball
Well-known member
My thinking is for the 1 day a month in the winter situation the air system would be the best. Now if it is going to be long nights for extended periods, then radiant can quickly be worth it.
Since we don't know how it will be used and that could change, then roughing in a radiant system with the floor pour makes a lot of sense. Even if the mechanicals don't go in right away, it will be there. smart thinking. Especially if you aren't going to have a lift. Get a project vehicle and the cost of radiant is less important. Not laying on a freezing floor is priceless, especially if yo are older and the joints are getting stiff.
Since we don't know how it will be used and that could change, then roughing in a radiant system with the floor pour makes a lot of sense. Even if the mechanicals don't go in right away, it will be there. smart thinking. Especially if you aren't going to have a lift. Get a project vehicle and the cost of radiant is less important. Not laying on a freezing floor is priceless, especially if yo are older and the joints are getting stiff.
mygarageone
Well-known member
I tend to be a whole lot more practical when my hard earned money comes into play , I would guess it comes from being raised poor and learning how to ultilize your money and resources most effectively . So when it comes to my needs and home / shop comfort , they are first priority over toys. Yea , I'm one of those who come from your your personal comfort is better than toys.
Anyhow , having worked as a mechanic yrs ago in. Gas station , I was always standing on cold concrete floors in the Dead of winter in Michigan , working on equipment . You never forget how miserable you are when your feet are cold , they never warm up with cold concrete floors and no amount of blowing hot air will warm you period. Your head is warm and your feet are cold. So unless people have a demand for A/C and most don't in work garages , I always let them know the bennies of R Floor heat. As far as ventilation goes , you have to have system designed for such no matter how you heat the garage. Paint shop , welding shops , ect , ect . Seperate systems for such activity. It's called heated make up air and it's required by law in most any garage doing any kind of work involving fumes.
I worked on a new maintance building for Vail Ski Resort , they had it all , R floor heat , a exhaust system , heated make up are and door curtain heaters . There feet were always warm because of radiant heat.
Anyhow , having worked as a mechanic yrs ago in. Gas station , I was always standing on cold concrete floors in the Dead of winter in Michigan , working on equipment . You never forget how miserable you are when your feet are cold , they never warm up with cold concrete floors and no amount of blowing hot air will warm you period. Your head is warm and your feet are cold. So unless people have a demand for A/C and most don't in work garages , I always let them know the bennies of R Floor heat. As far as ventilation goes , you have to have system designed for such no matter how you heat the garage. Paint shop , welding shops , ect , ect . Seperate systems for such activity. It's called heated make up air and it's required by law in most any garage doing any kind of work involving fumes.
I worked on a new maintance building for Vail Ski Resort , they had it all , R floor heat , a exhaust system , heated make up are and door curtain heaters . There feet were always warm because of radiant heat.
I notice people go right to the commercial aspect of garages on this forum, you look back into a lot of m posts and I am always arguing that these are not commercial systems, even in 2 of the posts in this thread I state it...
If you are building a commercial garage where techs are going to work 40+ hours a week 52 weeks a year, than yes, radiant heat should be high on the list. Its a write off so buy it, why not... I put it in my commercial garage and the office, it was a no brainer, the money was there, either pay for radiant or pay more taxes...
but in a hobby garage where even me, with 3 projects going at a time, only spend a few hours a day at the most in there its hard to justify..
Maybe think of it this way...
You are restoring classic cars, you spend the 15-20K on your heating system, you could have bought a rotisserie, a plasma cutter, a tig welder, etc etc etc, so when you get that beautiful 1970 cuda in the garage that needs quarters see how much help your heated floor is when it comes to cutting the old ones off and welding the new ones on, or when that 62 impala project rolls in and needs to be taken off its frame at least the floor will be warm as you lay on your back to reman it with paint dripping on your face...
Its all going to come down to what your budget dictates, for MG, obviously he wants comfort, I am not sure what kind of work he does in his garage, but not everyone has the money to have it all, I can buy about what ever I want {and I do, lol}, and I installed my radiant floor myself {my company}, and I still have everything {no paint booth though, I should have done it, but I havent yet}...
My entire point is, weigh it out, just because you are pouring a floor don't think you need to do radiant, A heated garage with no tools and toys is a lot less fun {in my book} than one full of tools that can make the work easier and in most cases possible...
I do agree that if you can afford to put the tubing and insulation in, go for it, because its hard to do it after, lol. But even with that its going to be a few bucks. The nice thing about having it there is after a handful of years you may have all the toys you want, welders, lifts, etc etc etc and you may want to throw a boiler and board in...
mygarageone
Well-known member
I can tell you right now , all this equipment you think can be bought with a so called saving of not having radiant Floor heat , doesn't amount to much . With all the equipment you mentioned your talking $ 3000-4000 thousand dollars. And most times that equipment isn't used but a few times as a Hobbyist .
You mention $15,000 - $ 20,000 . That's way out of whack. My garage I do use for working on my classic cars is 40x30 , between the boiler , controls , pumps ,piping ,etc
I don't have $3000 in it . Where are getting those figures ? Granted mine it was 5 yrs ago but your prices would scare anyone away.
Granted mine is a simple 1 zone , 4 loop system , 2 pumps , but most of the home garage need nothing more than this . You can't get much cheaper than this.
You mention $15,000 - $ 20,000 . That's way out of whack. My garage I do use for working on my classic cars is 40x30 , between the boiler , controls , pumps ,piping ,etc
I don't have $3000 in it . Where are getting those figures ? Granted mine it was 5 yrs ago but your prices would scare anyone away.
Granted mine is a simple 1 zone , 4 loop system , 2 pumps , but most of the home garage need nothing more than this . You can't get much cheaper than this.
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MagKarl
Well-known member
It really depends on your perspective. I'm just glad to have a spot to work that's out of the rain and wind. If you don't think a few thousand bucks is significant, that right there highlights that folks do look at this stuff differently.
Adding foam and PEX to my slab just in case would have doubled the cost, it simply doesn't pencil out for me.
Adding foam and PEX to my slab just in case would have doubled the cost, it simply doesn't pencil out for me.
theoldwizard1
Well-known member
A great combination of heat sources with cooling to boot ! You have to understand the costs of each to minimize your fuel expenses. Heat pump is a good heat source when the temp is above freezing. Wood and LP are good when it is really cold out.
Is wood just a stove or are you heating the boiler(s) ?
BadgerBoilerMN
Well-known member
In most climates, one or two room shops can be heated and cooled at the lowes operating cost using a a mini-split, air-to-air heat pump.
If you don't need cooling, the infrared tube heater or radiant floor can't be beat.
I don't care who you are
If you don't need cooling, the infrared tube heater or radiant floor can't be beat.
I don't care who you are
Randy in Maine
Well-known member
My shop is 40'x28' = 1120 square feet. 2" of insualtion cost right around $1 square foot ~ $1100 . 1000 feet of 1/2" pex tubing cost around $500 including the manifold for the 4 loops. I spent another $150 for 200' 3/4 pex to get hot water from my Baxi boiler in the house out to my manifold in my garage in 4" PVC underground. That supplies the cheap heat to the garage.
I used the same leftover pex tubing to run both hot and cold domestic water out to the shop in underground 4" PVC for my silcocks.
While I was doing the new garage I bought the Baxi boiler to do the house ~ $3500 installed in the house and plumbed to convert my whole house to radiant floor heat in the floor joists (1000 feet of 1/2" in 4 loops ~ $500) and did the new stained glass studio (250 feet of 1/2" pex ~ $200). 3 zones + gives me the domestic hot water.
I could not think of a cheaper or better way to heat everything. It is doing fine and is very efficient.
I used the same leftover pex tubing to run both hot and cold domestic water out to the shop in underground 4" PVC for my silcocks.
While I was doing the new garage I bought the Baxi boiler to do the house ~ $3500 installed in the house and plumbed to convert my whole house to radiant floor heat in the floor joists (1000 feet of 1/2" in 4 loops ~ $500) and did the new stained glass studio (250 feet of 1/2" pex ~ $200). 3 zones + gives me the domestic hot water.
I could not think of a cheaper or better way to heat everything. It is doing fine and is very efficient.
mygarageone
Well-known member
Money is always a factor but people have to look at the long term end results.
Yes a $1000. Extra dollars is a lot of money for anyone at the moment but for some reason we are always looking at the short term effects.
when your talking heating systems , it should always be looked at in long term and comfort . What amazes me is most of us go out and by a 20-40 thousand dollar vehicle on credit for 5-6 yrs and go do again and again but when it comes to our homes or shops heating systems , it's how cheap can I go !
It's all about perceived value , we can show of our new vehicles but not out heating system that keep us warm and now days they never miss a lick if properly maintained.
Example : other than one vehicle , all of my vehicles are older and they show it . A lot of people who don't know me think I'm either cheap or on the poor side but then come to my home and they are surprised and I have heard the comment , how can you afford this and your drive old vehicle ?
It's because I put my money were it does me the most value.
Are we off track or what ?
>)
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BadgerBoilerMN
Well-known member
Money is always a factor but people have to look at the long term end results.
Yes a $1000. Extra dollars is a lot of money for anyone at the monument but for some reason we are always looking at the short term effects.
when your talking heating systems , it should always be looked at in long term and comfort . What amazes me is most of us go out and by a 20-40 thousand dollar vehicle on credit for 5-6 yrs and go do again and again but when it comes to our homes or shops heating systems , it's how cheap can I go !
It's all about perceived value , we can show of our new vehicles but not out heating system that keep us warm and now days they never miss a lick if properly maintained.
Example : other than one vehicle , all of my vehicles are older and they show it . A lot of people who don't know me think I'm either cheap or on the poor side but then come to my home and they are surprised and I have heard the comment , how can you afford this and your drive old vehicle ?
It's because I put my money were it does me the most value.
Are we off track or what ?
I love this guy!
BadgerBoilerMN
Well-known member
A great combination of heat sources with cooling to boot ! You have to understand the costs of each to minimize your fuel expenses. Heat pump is a good heat source when the temp is above freezing. Wood and LP are good when it is really cold out.
Is wood just a stove or are you heating the boiler(s) ?
Wood stove in the basement of the house and an outdoor boiler scheduled for the shop. As suggested, part of the business and sinfully showing off.
As for air-to-air heat pumps in cold weather. It is hard to keep up with the technology but hyper-heat models are good well below zero, a condition that is rare in most of the country and wouldn't effect overall efficiency or cost of operation.
http://www.forbes.com/sites/tomkonr...s-a-threat-to-geothermal-heat-pump-suppliers/
OP
Crazy68Dart
Well-known member
I am just sitting back and eating my popcorn...
Thanks for all the replies. A lot of great things to think about and consider. For me it is a combination of things, complexity (long term maintenance, reliability, and general effing around when things break) being the biggest. I am probably over thinking it. I can do a tube radiant heater with a lot less hassle. I don't have to worry about when/if I drill a hole in the slab, I don't have a bunch of equipment to service/maintain. Plus... still need to do something for A/C.
The cost is the factor, but really, it is not the driving factor. For this reason, I will likely put the pex in the slab. But again, it is a lot easier to just get the slab poured instead of figuring out which insulation to buy, installing it correctly, worrying about it taking on water over the next 10-20 years (and basically killing the system), routing/installing the pex, etc. etc. not to mention the rest of the system at some point in the future.
I am a KISS kind of guy, what can I say... lol. However, I am a car guy, I can't wait to start my next project, and long term I know radiant would be a nice setup.
General consensus, even if not doing radiant, most think insulation should still go under the slab?
Thanks for all the replies. A lot of great things to think about and consider. For me it is a combination of things, complexity (long term maintenance, reliability, and general effing around when things break) being the biggest. I am probably over thinking it. I can do a tube radiant heater with a lot less hassle. I don't have to worry about when/if I drill a hole in the slab, I don't have a bunch of equipment to service/maintain. Plus... still need to do something for A/C.
The cost is the factor, but really, it is not the driving factor. For this reason, I will likely put the pex in the slab. But again, it is a lot easier to just get the slab poured instead of figuring out which insulation to buy, installing it correctly, worrying about it taking on water over the next 10-20 years (and basically killing the system), routing/installing the pex, etc. etc. not to mention the rest of the system at some point in the future.
I am a KISS kind of guy, what can I say... lol. However, I am a car guy, I can't wait to start my next project, and long term I know radiant would be a nice setup.
General consensus, even if not doing radiant, most think insulation should still go under the slab?
$3000???????? Seriously, what are you using to heat the water, the cheapest boiler is $1300 even if you use a rinnai tankless water heater...
OK, lets use a 1200 sq foot garage. I am talking installed prices...
2" Foam board is $1.25 a sq ft, Reflective barrier is {barrier foil} is about $1 per foot, then tubing for a 1200 sq foot building 1/2" wirsbo is 2 1000 foot rolls of tubing {thats 8" on center} { could do 12" on center for 5/8" tubing}, 6 loops.
Now you need a manifold a 6 circuit wirsbo true flo is about $500
Now a pump even if you just did a 007 thats $80, but a delta tee ecm circ for $190 would be well worth it...
Next your near boiler piping, if you dont use any mixers or fphx you are still spending $350 for a decent vent, 911s water feed, fittings, pipee, etc...
Now a boiler at least $2500 for a cheap mod con, then you need to vent it, and supply it...
ut just add the basics rounded down.. You are easily around $7500 and havent paid for labor yet!!!! Most guys double their materials so that will put you right where I said at $15K..
Now some guys may say, well I don't insulate that way, or I use a 40 gallon water heater to heat the floor, etc etc etc.. Still gonna be expensive.
I did a lot of floors in my life, and I know what I got paid to do them. I can PROMISE you, I NEVER did one for $3K, lol, NEVER!!!!! I did a walk way to a jacuzzi that was 300 feet of tubing and a fphx and it was $6K...
And you you are doing a floor, do it right, reflective barrier, foam board insulation, wirsbo hepex, wirsbo manifolds, etc... The cost isnt much more than doing it half assed and you can't dig it up after... Also I always did 8" for 1/2" and 12" for 5/8" centers, I do 5/8" tubing 6" on center for snow melts! Do it right the first time, more element equals lower fluid temps... Also use mixing valves only when forced to , a fphx controls water much better...
But anyway, I am kind of skeptical about the $3000 floor, I would love to hear what others paid for it {INSTALLED not DIY}....
Can I see a pic of the manifold that came with the 1K feet of pex for $500???
When I install radiant heating systems its around $15 per sq foot, I did this for years, that is always about what it costs... so 1000 sq ft is $15K... nothing fancy, done right, done professional, with nice materials and a written warranty... BUT $15K {minimum}... Thats start to finish {with boiler}but still about $15 sq foot, the less sq feet the more it costs per sq foot...
I got a LOT of the jobs I priced so it must have been on par with other companies...
Randy in Maine
Well-known member
No picture but I can sort of describe the manifolds. My guy made them up in his shop. I have one set up the house for those lines and another in the "plumbing/electrical wall" in my garage.
o o o o
___l___l___l___l___= 3/4"
The hot water "feed line" is about 18" long and made of 1" copper with 4 Ts that get the hot water from the 3/4" pex feed line. The 4 Ts feed the 1/2" pex for the 250' floor loops. About 12" OC. Keep in mind you are heating a rock much like a caveman did.
The cold water "return line" is pretty much the same 18" long 1" copper lines with the same Ts only they each have a little shutoff valve "o" (above) which I assume lets him adjust the flow to each line and allowed him to easily bleed all of the air out of the system when it was new. I have "shot it" with my little laser thermometer and they are all within about 10º coming and going. Of course I am heating up a big 42 ton "rock" that I call my garage floor to about 50º or so. No cold spots and it holds 50º even when it is -20º here and windy. My "log sided" garage is built out of SIPs though, so it is pretty tight and really well insulated. I spent more up front to get lower utility bills down the road.
The hot water leaves the house Baxi boiler at about 120º and returns from this zone at about 80-90º. I use a single 007 taco circulator pump and the system uses a taco 3 zone control box attached to the 3 zone control valves.
My heating guy said that he has a similar set up at his house, but he has the outside temp sensor that I don't. He told me that they don't have to cost gobs of money for them to work well, but he installs them for gobs of money for people with gobs of money (that is not me). While he was here he also did some other stuff (put in my new LP gas stove and converted a free natural gas "woodstove" to propane for my wife's stained glass studio). He really liked my VW buses, lived just a few miles away, and sort of "worked me in to his schedule". I was happy with his work and told him so. I pay all those guys right away and don't make them wait 30-90 days. They all like that.
I bought the pex online at "Pex Supply" or someplace like that. I think I bought about 2 rolls of 1000 feet (garage and house) and another 300 feet (for the wife's stained glass studio) of 1/2" O2 barrier. I think I also bought 300 feet of 3/4" O2 barrier for the incoming and outgoing lines, but I gave a lot of it away as I did not need it. I bought the Upanor or Wrisbo brand or whatever it is called now. My heating guy had the nifty crimping tool. I laid it all down in the new garage and the stained glass studio and my heating guy hooked it all up. I helped my carpenter guy run about 1/2 of the pex in the crawl space floor joists as work pulled me away, and he did about half of it with another helper. That was rough work under there.
Does that help?
o o o o
___l___l___l___l___= 3/4"
The hot water "feed line" is about 18" long and made of 1" copper with 4 Ts that get the hot water from the 3/4" pex feed line. The 4 Ts feed the 1/2" pex for the 250' floor loops. About 12" OC. Keep in mind you are heating a rock much like a caveman did.
The cold water "return line" is pretty much the same 18" long 1" copper lines with the same Ts only they each have a little shutoff valve "o" (above) which I assume lets him adjust the flow to each line and allowed him to easily bleed all of the air out of the system when it was new. I have "shot it" with my little laser thermometer and they are all within about 10º coming and going. Of course I am heating up a big 42 ton "rock" that I call my garage floor to about 50º or so. No cold spots and it holds 50º even when it is -20º here and windy. My "log sided" garage is built out of SIPs though, so it is pretty tight and really well insulated. I spent more up front to get lower utility bills down the road.
The hot water leaves the house Baxi boiler at about 120º and returns from this zone at about 80-90º. I use a single 007 taco circulator pump and the system uses a taco 3 zone control box attached to the 3 zone control valves.
My heating guy said that he has a similar set up at his house, but he has the outside temp sensor that I don't. He told me that they don't have to cost gobs of money for them to work well, but he installs them for gobs of money for people with gobs of money (that is not me). While he was here he also did some other stuff (put in my new LP gas stove and converted a free natural gas "woodstove" to propane for my wife's stained glass studio). He really liked my VW buses, lived just a few miles away, and sort of "worked me in to his schedule". I was happy with his work and told him so. I pay all those guys right away and don't make them wait 30-90 days. They all like that.
I bought the pex online at "Pex Supply" or someplace like that. I think I bought about 2 rolls of 1000 feet (garage and house) and another 300 feet (for the wife's stained glass studio) of 1/2" O2 barrier. I think I also bought 300 feet of 3/4" O2 barrier for the incoming and outgoing lines, but I gave a lot of it away as I did not need it. I bought the Upanor or Wrisbo brand or whatever it is called now. My heating guy had the nifty crimping tool. I laid it all down in the new garage and the stained glass studio and my heating guy hooked it all up. I helped my carpenter guy run about 1/2 of the pex in the crawl space floor joists as work pulled me away, and he did about half of it with another helper. That was rough work under there.
Does that help?
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lol, now I really want to see a pic of that mani, I just have no idea how someone can install something like that so cheap. I have seen some home mades manifolds but they cant compare to a nice unit with a balancing valve and gauges.
Even adding it up in my head I can't see how someone can do radiant "cheap".
To properly insualte a floor its almost $2.50 per sq foot JUST in materials, reflective barrier and 2" foam board {r10}. OK, some guys just use bubble wrap, but I see the difference in the finish product, and some guys just use foam and no reflective, but again I see the difference when the floors are running. My floors run better and cost less to heat...
Next manifolds, OK, you can make them, still gonna be $150 in materials if you put ball valves, and a couple gauges, now how long does that take to make and make nice? and how many leak points di you just add to the system? and how do you bolt it up nice and clean? Unistrut, thats not free????
So say you do everything sub par and skate alone on the premis that hot pipe in the floor will make heat. You still need a minimum of 1ft of tubing per sq, so 1000 sq is still $1000 and I have yet to see the job where there wasnt a 10-20% waste...
So insulate the floor with just bble wrap thats $1 a sq ft, use the minimum of tubing, make some home made copper manifolds, do all the work yourself and use a 50 gal gas water heater as a boiler, I'll be honest I am picturing it in my head, the cost is still going to be $3000 {with out adding for mixing valves, controls, wire mesh, circulators, appliance venting, gas lines, etc etc etc}, YAH I WILL TAKE A PACKAGE UNIT WITH AC over that anyday of the week, lol...
PLEASE snap a picture of your manifolds Randy I am super curious...
Here is my point, if you are going to do radiant, do it right. I am installing a board for a gentleman I met on the jeep forum, he was asking about radiant heat in his house and turns out he is only 50 miles from me, so I offered for free to set it up for him, he turned out to be a really nice guy, I gave him a list of stuff to buy he brought it all up to my shop, I built it and I am going to install it monday or tuesday night for him, for free, his wife is making me and my wife dinner while I am there installing it, I am retired and bored I guess, lol... But him buying the circs, controls, fittings, tubing, wood boards, manifolds, and fphx's cost him about $3000!!! the tubing was already in his house!!! $3K just for the boards for 3 zones of floors, and 1 zone of sidewalk melt!!!!
It should look really good all bolted up, I'll take some pics...
Even adding it up in my head I can't see how someone can do radiant "cheap".
To properly insualte a floor its almost $2.50 per sq foot JUST in materials, reflective barrier and 2" foam board {r10}. OK, some guys just use bubble wrap, but I see the difference in the finish product, and some guys just use foam and no reflective, but again I see the difference when the floors are running. My floors run better and cost less to heat...
Next manifolds, OK, you can make them, still gonna be $150 in materials if you put ball valves, and a couple gauges, now how long does that take to make and make nice? and how many leak points di you just add to the system? and how do you bolt it up nice and clean? Unistrut, thats not free????
So say you do everything sub par and skate alone on the premis that hot pipe in the floor will make heat. You still need a minimum of 1ft of tubing per sq, so 1000 sq is still $1000 and I have yet to see the job where there wasnt a 10-20% waste...
So insulate the floor with just bble wrap thats $1 a sq ft, use the minimum of tubing, make some home made copper manifolds, do all the work yourself and use a 50 gal gas water heater as a boiler, I'll be honest I am picturing it in my head, the cost is still going to be $3000 {with out adding for mixing valves, controls, wire mesh, circulators, appliance venting, gas lines, etc etc etc}, YAH I WILL TAKE A PACKAGE UNIT WITH AC over that anyday of the week, lol...
PLEASE snap a picture of your manifolds Randy I am super curious...
Here is my point, if you are going to do radiant, do it right. I am installing a board for a gentleman I met on the jeep forum, he was asking about radiant heat in his house and turns out he is only 50 miles from me, so I offered for free to set it up for him, he turned out to be a really nice guy, I gave him a list of stuff to buy he brought it all up to my shop, I built it and I am going to install it monday or tuesday night for him, for free, his wife is making me and my wife dinner while I am there installing it, I am retired and bored I guess, lol... But him buying the circs, controls, fittings, tubing, wood boards, manifolds, and fphx's cost him about $3000!!! the tubing was already in his house!!! $3K just for the boards for 3 zones of floors, and 1 zone of sidewalk melt!!!!
It should look really good all bolted up, I'll take some pics...
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Randy in Maine
Well-known member
I am not sure just where you are, but I am near Portland, Maine. It gets cold here, but not North Dakota cold.
I am not sure just why you would run radiant reflective barrier under concrete. I did not, however I did put down a 6 mil plastic vapor barrier. I bought a big roll of that at Home Depot.
I just used the Dow 2" foam that they all use for radiant floors around here (it is even marked off every 12" for those that staple). $32 for a 4x8 sheet delivered. To me that is just about $1 per square foot. I thought about using 4" of foam like they do in a permafrost location, but did not.
I am not sure what I would do with a bunch of gauges on each line. I would hope I would not have to look at them all of the time. My manifolds in the garage live behind a little wooden access panel (that I also have to shut off the silcocks for my garden hoses). I never fuss with them. I do have some gauges in near the boiler and the zone valves, but I don't really fuss with them either.
Here in Maine we have a saying that sort of translates to, "Life is really to short to be fussing with stuff that doesn't need it."
PM me your e-mail address and I will try to send you a photo of the manifolds.
I am not sure just why you would run radiant reflective barrier under concrete. I did not, however I did put down a 6 mil plastic vapor barrier. I bought a big roll of that at Home Depot.
I just used the Dow 2" foam that they all use for radiant floors around here (it is even marked off every 12" for those that staple). $32 for a 4x8 sheet delivered. To me that is just about $1 per square foot. I thought about using 4" of foam like they do in a permafrost location, but did not.
I am not sure what I would do with a bunch of gauges on each line. I would hope I would not have to look at them all of the time. My manifolds in the garage live behind a little wooden access panel (that I also have to shut off the silcocks for my garden hoses). I never fuss with them. I do have some gauges in near the boiler and the zone valves, but I don't really fuss with them either.
Here in Maine we have a saying that sort of translates to, "Life is really to short to be fussing with stuff that doesn't need it."
PM me your e-mail address and I will try to send you a photo of the manifolds.
6768rogues
Banned
I have a 36 x 48 x 14 foot tall building in western NY. The concrete floor is uninsulated. The sidewalls are R23. The ceiling is R 23. I use a Reznor natural gas heater and last winter was unusually cold and windy. I kept the garage 45 degrees all the time and pushed it up occasionally to 55 when I was out there. It cost $300 to heat it all winter, and often an overhead door was opened briefly to let a car out, or worse, let a freezing cold car back in.
Radiant floor heat is nice. I didn't use it because the upfront cost is too high, I cannot turn it off without making sure it is freeze protected, repairs are expensive, and I cannot replace the equipment cheaply. My heater cost $700, I hung it and piped it myself for minimal cost. When it is shot, a whole new system is only a little more because of cost increases. No expensive boiler, expansion tank, circulators, etc. My heater hangs from the ceiling and takes zero floor space. Since 1994, all I have done is clean it and I replaced a flame sensor that I broke when I was cleaning it. That was the one and only new part it has required.
My building has 4 large single hung windows on each side. In the summer, I put a 12,000 btu AC unit in a window on one side and a 15,000 btu on the other side where I have a 240V plug. Unless I am opening doors frequently and pulling in hot cars, the small AC unit handles the building. I only turn on the second one if I am in a hurry to cool it down or if a drive in a car with a hot engine and need to catch up. One AC unit bit the dust, so I just bought another cheap one and replaced it. Simple and cheap to install, simple to operate, cheap to run. I only use the AC if it is hot and steamy outside and the mosquitoes are hungry.
Radiant floor heat is nice. I didn't use it because the upfront cost is too high, I cannot turn it off without making sure it is freeze protected, repairs are expensive, and I cannot replace the equipment cheaply. My heater cost $700, I hung it and piped it myself for minimal cost. When it is shot, a whole new system is only a little more because of cost increases. No expensive boiler, expansion tank, circulators, etc. My heater hangs from the ceiling and takes zero floor space. Since 1994, all I have done is clean it and I replaced a flame sensor that I broke when I was cleaning it. That was the one and only new part it has required.
My building has 4 large single hung windows on each side. In the summer, I put a 12,000 btu AC unit in a window on one side and a 15,000 btu on the other side where I have a 240V plug. Unless I am opening doors frequently and pulling in hot cars, the small AC unit handles the building. I only turn on the second one if I am in a hurry to cool it down or if a drive in a car with a hot engine and need to catch up. One AC unit bit the dust, so I just bought another cheap one and replaced it. Simple and cheap to install, simple to operate, cheap to run. I only use the AC if it is hot and steamy outside and the mosquitoes are hungry.
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Toomanytools?
Well-known member
Ok so what happened this just fizzled out around May?
The guys that said radiant floor was the best I have to agree, and it can be done on a budget as well.
I have just over 4k into my 1200 sq feet, but I was smart and a bit lucky. Bought the barrier pex on sale + 11% rebate ya'll know which store $350 for 1200 feet, I have 3 inches of insulation under the floor but I would have that even without the floor heat but included it in the cost.
Picked up everything else needed except the boiler at %11 off as well, boiler was $1300.
I keep it at 65* all winter turning the boiler on in OCT and off in April or May runs me about $1200 a year was less the first few years but then the damn tree rats got into the roof and f'ed up the insulation.
There is so little to go wrong with my system, a pump or boiler could go out but that is about it.
I have just over 4k into my 1200 sq feet, but I was smart and a bit lucky. Bought the barrier pex on sale + 11% rebate ya'll know which store $350 for 1200 feet, I have 3 inches of insulation under the floor but I would have that even without the floor heat but included it in the cost.
Picked up everything else needed except the boiler at %11 off as well, boiler was $1300.
I keep it at 65* all winter turning the boiler on in OCT and off in April or May runs me about $1200 a year was less the first few years but then the damn tree rats got into the roof and f'ed up the insulation.
There is so little to go wrong with my system, a pump or boiler could go out but that is about it.
BadgerBoilerMN
Well-known member
There is no down side to radiant floors. The cost reflects the added value of comfort.
First, let's forget about foil, of any kind. You can't reflect heat when your reflector is touching the surface it is intended to reflect from. It is like pushing your face up against a mirror and trying to see it.
Slow response time is nearly meaningless with modern construction.
If you want to heat a shop on the weekend and shut in down the rest of the week, what you "heat" it with really won't matter since you will have a cold slab and have to wear warm clothes.
Heated buildings should be insulated if they are to be heated, by the radiant heat or otherwise. Since you will be putting insulation down and a concrete slab is a nearly perfect heat emitter, why not make the slab Radiant Floor Ready?
If you plan to heat the shop full time, nothing will cost less to operate, be more comfortable, or provide better response time since the slab will respond to an open garage door.
The PEX tubing will last a hundred years. The manifold, pre-assembled of course, will last at least half of that. The heat source, properly specified, installed and maintained should last 20 years.
Now, should you want cooling as well, a mini-split would be in order. We design, install and have in our own shop radiant floor and inverted heat pumps that will heat or cool the space.
A heat pump will likely be the least expensive way to heat and cool your shop unless you have natural gas, in which case and condensing boiler would be in order.
If you think you would like to shut the system down in cold weather you can blow the water out, as with irrigation systems, or dose the system with the appropriate mix of propylene glycol.
If you want freeze-proof, weekend heat, with reasonable efficiency and increased above average comfort a low-intensity infrared tube heater with ducted combustion air would be my choice.
First, let's forget about foil, of any kind. You can't reflect heat when your reflector is touching the surface it is intended to reflect from. It is like pushing your face up against a mirror and trying to see it.
Slow response time is nearly meaningless with modern construction.
If you want to heat a shop on the weekend and shut in down the rest of the week, what you "heat" it with really won't matter since you will have a cold slab and have to wear warm clothes.
Heated buildings should be insulated if they are to be heated, by the radiant heat or otherwise. Since you will be putting insulation down and a concrete slab is a nearly perfect heat emitter, why not make the slab Radiant Floor Ready?
If you plan to heat the shop full time, nothing will cost less to operate, be more comfortable, or provide better response time since the slab will respond to an open garage door.
The PEX tubing will last a hundred years. The manifold, pre-assembled of course, will last at least half of that. The heat source, properly specified, installed and maintained should last 20 years.
Now, should you want cooling as well, a mini-split would be in order. We design, install and have in our own shop radiant floor and inverted heat pumps that will heat or cool the space.
A heat pump will likely be the least expensive way to heat and cool your shop unless you have natural gas, in which case and condensing boiler would be in order.
If you think you would like to shut the system down in cold weather you can blow the water out, as with irrigation systems, or dose the system with the appropriate mix of propylene glycol.
If you want freeze-proof, weekend heat, with reasonable efficiency and increased above average comfort a low-intensity infrared tube heater with ducted combustion air would be my choice.
OP
Crazy68Dart
Well-known member
Hey Guys, still here.
Moving along on the build, I need to get my **** together and figure out what I am going to do. I am pretty certain that I want to at least get the PEX in the floor, even if I don't use it for a while (or ever). The cost adder for the PEX is not that high.
Footer/wall is insulated, I need to make 16" pieces to fill over the ledge blocks. I also need to figure out how to do my thermal break at the overhead door openings. I have some ideas I am going to sketch up.
I need to make sure the concrete sub that my contractor is using is okay with everything.
I should probably start a thread in the gallery, but I have not much time right now, and that will just take more to keep the thread updated.
Moving along on the build, I need to get my **** together and figure out what I am going to do. I am pretty certain that I want to at least get the PEX in the floor, even if I don't use it for a while (or ever). The cost adder for the PEX is not that high.
Footer/wall is insulated, I need to make 16" pieces to fill over the ledge blocks. I also need to figure out how to do my thermal break at the overhead door openings. I have some ideas I am going to sketch up.
I need to make sure the concrete sub that my contractor is using is okay with everything.
I should probably start a thread in the gallery, but I have not much time right now, and that will just take more to keep the thread updated.
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Kamhillbilly
Member
I have radiant floors in my shop it was years before I actually got them hooked up ( your right one chance to do them and its not that much $) They are fine as long as the big doors are not opening & closing lots then a forced air system is also needed to quickly get the garage comfortable temp quickly .Especially if bringing in ice cold piece of equipment.
We typically put a furnace in a garage, you can buy a 90%+ efficient furnace for a fraction of what a 90+ unit heater is. Plus you also have the option of adding ac at some point which usually turns people on when they hear that.
OP
Crazy68Dart
Well-known member
What were you heating with before the radiant system was hooked up? How long have you had the radiant hooked up? Interesting about the recovery. Different than what I have been reading. In general, since this is a residential garage, I don't expect stuff in and out over the winter. How did you do your insulation?
Yah, A/C is certainly a draw -- I figured I would maybe do a mini split at some point in the future, but that is just more money into everything.
Here is the deal, I have a day job, a family, etc. I am a car nut, but the reality is many things take priority when they need to. At this point in my life, 6-8 hours a week in the garage doing hobby things if I am (really) lucky. Otherwise, some time will be spent doing maintenance, etc. of the daily drivers.
Heating 24/7 just so the system can keep up does not make a lot of sense to me, unless it really is efficient (i.e. it does not really add that much to the bill).
Dumb question on radiant -- does the circulation pump always run, or only when the water is being heated?
NedNorton
Well-known member
My $.02...
I have in-floor radiant in my shop. When I built the house it was easy to add the zone. After living with it in Colorado, at 8,800ft, for over a decade I would say that when I was using the shop a lot it was great. Now, when my time dropped to less often it became a sore spot on the propane bill. I have to agree with those who say that the recovery isn't as quick so big temp changes will be handled less effectively. At least that has been my experience in both the shop and house. If the skin load of the building is well under control this may not be a problem but my guess is that with garage doors being installed (low R value compared to walls) it becomes a factor that will impact how well it does. In addition, the proposed fuel source is also a huge concern. We are on propane and at $2-$4 a gallon things add up real quick. If we had a natural gas line close by, with the prices now and forecasted, it becomes a much smaller bill and issue.
Good thought running the pex in the slab. Can't hurt. I would also size an electric heater for the space and have the circuit added to the sub-pannel in case you want to go the electric route. For me, with the cost of electricity being so low and the cost of propane being so much higher I will install an electric heater for this winter and take advantage of the lower energy costs. The ability to keep the shop at 45 when not in it and quickly get it to 60 is also a bonus.
Enjoy the new garage!
Cheers,
Chris
I have in-floor radiant in my shop. When I built the house it was easy to add the zone. After living with it in Colorado, at 8,800ft, for over a decade I would say that when I was using the shop a lot it was great. Now, when my time dropped to less often it became a sore spot on the propane bill. I have to agree with those who say that the recovery isn't as quick so big temp changes will be handled less effectively. At least that has been my experience in both the shop and house. If the skin load of the building is well under control this may not be a problem but my guess is that with garage doors being installed (low R value compared to walls) it becomes a factor that will impact how well it does. In addition, the proposed fuel source is also a huge concern. We are on propane and at $2-$4 a gallon things add up real quick. If we had a natural gas line close by, with the prices now and forecasted, it becomes a much smaller bill and issue.
Good thought running the pex in the slab. Can't hurt. I would also size an electric heater for the space and have the circuit added to the sub-pannel in case you want to go the electric route. For me, with the cost of electricity being so low and the cost of propane being so much higher I will install an electric heater for this winter and take advantage of the lower energy costs. The ability to keep the shop at 45 when not in it and quickly get it to 60 is also a bonus.
Enjoy the new garage!
Cheers,
Chris
TheEquineFencer
Well-known member
I'll have to disagree with you on that. I can open the doors and let everything out, (2) 14x14 doors and it's warm within minutes with the system I did.
OP
Crazy68Dart
Well-known member
Chris, thanks.
I have all/any fuel available. The plan was to trench NG to the garage from my house which is about 60-70 ft away. It is a straight shot, good hookup outside, but I gotta rip my patio up which stinks. I am also planning on a separate meter/drop for the electric. Otherwise, I *might* run a sub off the main house. I have 2, 1.5" gray conduit stubs ready to be trenched back to the house. I realize the NG needs to be in a separate/dedicated trench.
Thank you for the information. This all helps. Biggest thing is time to get the PEX installed, the PEX price itself, otherwise, I am doing insulation anyways.
I have all/any fuel available. The plan was to trench NG to the garage from my house which is about 60-70 ft away. It is a straight shot, good hookup outside, but I gotta rip my patio up which stinks. I am also planning on a separate meter/drop for the electric. Otherwise, I *might* run a sub off the main house. I have 2, 1.5" gray conduit stubs ready to be trenched back to the house. I realize the NG needs to be in a separate/dedicated trench.
Thank you for the information. This all helps. Biggest thing is time to get the PEX installed, the PEX price itself, otherwise, I am doing insulation anyways.
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TheEquineFencer
Well-known member
So I'm not trying to cause athanks for the comments so far. lol
Is there anyone that has real world cost of heating with radiant versus heating with something else? Answer to this is probably a no...
I think the system can take up some wall space, at least based on the systems I have researched. What are the reliability aspects of the heating unit (boiler, on demand, etc.), circulation pump(s), etc. etc.?
I agree, I would do insulation anyway under the slab, so why not at least get the PEX in the slab... yeah... some more up front, but then it would at least let me choose which way I wanted to go.
I've used both LPG and a Wood fired boiler to heat the same building at one Point. It cost my **** to heat with LPG. I was so glad when I was able to be home and keep the wood boiler fired. Yes, it's some work, but it's cheap heat. Wood fired with free wood is cheap, yes, I spent some time doing it is what a lot of naysayers will say, but the first two years it cost we less than $2000 to heat the place. That included the $1000 chainsaw, yes it's a BIG one and a used log splitter.
As far as the "heat" itself? in the winter I'll sleep in the shop more than I do the house. I'll get my feet nice and warm and go to sleep at the office desk.
You can do it "right" or you can just do what you can afford, that's what I did. I'm sure I have a **** load of thermal heat loss, I didn't do the whole floor, but wish I had now knowing how well it worked. I only used F/B/F under the pad where I put the Pex. But with what I did do it's a lot better than LPG heat to me. The bathroom is the nice part, the toilet seat stays warm in the winter. The G/F leaves her barn boots in there so they are nice and warm in the mornings in the winter.
Jon_E
Well-known member
I asked in a separate thread about the best way to heat the water that runs through the radiant tubing for my new garage, but I would like to add my own experience. I run radiant tubing in my basement floor slab in my house, and there is also staple-up tubing under the tile floors in two upstairs bathrooms. I technically have a three-story house - basement, first floor and second floor, so that means that my basement and part of my second floor are heated. 4300 square feet total. Is it perfect? - No, but it keeps the basement at about 70 degrees all winter and the warm floor is awesome. The main floor stays around 62 degrees, but except for those really cold days in the dead of winter, it's comfortable.
I heat the radiant tubing, and all of my domestic hot water, with an outdoor wood furnace. I paid that off within the first five years based on the comparable savings from the same amount of propane or electricity I would have used.
Now, you might ask, why don't I want to heat my garage with the same system? Well, I do, but I am concerned that the materials to hook up my wood boiler to a radiant system in the garage will be too costly. I am really doing this garage on a shoestring, but at the same time, making sure it will last me for the next 40 years. I was given the impression that a gas or electric water heater, or one of the new hybrid heat pumps, would be cheaper than running 150 feet of ThermoPex to my garage (including excavating, installing) I'm finding out, especially in the long run, that might not be the case.
I also am amazed at some of the prices being thrown around here for radiant installations. I know that the only costs specific to radiant heat in a slab are the plumbing components. You still have to insulate your slab (right?, because otherwise it's just a big heat sink, even for a forced-air system) you still need concrete reinforcing, you still need electricity for pumps, etc. So far I have $440 into my radiant for my slab, including all of the PEX, bends, ties, the 3-port manifold and valves. I'll need another $2000 for the PEX from the wood boiler to the garage (if I go that route and buy the really expensive stuff) and another $700-1000 (maybe) for all of the miscellaneous plumbing fittings I will need for the connection inside the garage (heat exchanger, 2 pumps, expansion tank, thermostat, wiring, valves, etc.) I can see where a system could be $15k for the top-of-the-line system, including the boiler. I'm trying to get my entire heating AND cooling budget for this garage under $3000 and if I shop and plan carefully I think that's easily obtainable.
I heat the radiant tubing, and all of my domestic hot water, with an outdoor wood furnace. I paid that off within the first five years based on the comparable savings from the same amount of propane or electricity I would have used.
Now, you might ask, why don't I want to heat my garage with the same system? Well, I do, but I am concerned that the materials to hook up my wood boiler to a radiant system in the garage will be too costly. I am really doing this garage on a shoestring, but at the same time, making sure it will last me for the next 40 years. I was given the impression that a gas or electric water heater, or one of the new hybrid heat pumps, would be cheaper than running 150 feet of ThermoPex to my garage (including excavating, installing) I'm finding out, especially in the long run, that might not be the case.
I also am amazed at some of the prices being thrown around here for radiant installations. I know that the only costs specific to radiant heat in a slab are the plumbing components. You still have to insulate your slab (right?, because otherwise it's just a big heat sink, even for a forced-air system) you still need concrete reinforcing, you still need electricity for pumps, etc. So far I have $440 into my radiant for my slab, including all of the PEX, bends, ties, the 3-port manifold and valves. I'll need another $2000 for the PEX from the wood boiler to the garage (if I go that route and buy the really expensive stuff) and another $700-1000 (maybe) for all of the miscellaneous plumbing fittings I will need for the connection inside the garage (heat exchanger, 2 pumps, expansion tank, thermostat, wiring, valves, etc.) I can see where a system could be $15k for the top-of-the-line system, including the boiler. I'm trying to get my entire heating AND cooling budget for this garage under $3000 and if I shop and plan carefully I think that's easily obtainable.
akpolaris
Well-known member
I have read all of this but really would like to ask if a water heater can be used to get heat as efficiently as a boiler. It will have to be an electric water heater. Or a fuel fired boiler. I am ready to install my heat source before winter. it is in a 32' X 32' shop with 16' walls.
BadgerBoilerMN
Well-known member
Tank-type electric WHs don't have the required output. Tank-less electrics are inferior to electric boilers. Electric efficiency is theoretically 100% regardless.
Tank-type water heaters are not as efficient as boilers when burning fossil fuels unless they are condensing gas-fired water heaters or boilers.
First, the proper Manual 'J' heat load to get the right output regardless of source or fuel.
Tank-type water heaters are not as efficient as boilers when burning fossil fuels unless they are condensing gas-fired water heaters or boilers.
First, the proper Manual 'J' heat load to get the right output regardless of source or fuel.
theoldwizard1
Well-known member
With those 2 objective, you will likely NOT satisfy either !
If you like you wood boiler and if has the capacity and don't mind the labor of feeding it, pay the money and run insulated pipe to the garage. A wood fired boiler is still the cheapest heat source in the US. Natural gas is second.
akpolaris
Well-known member
Badger what do you mean by;
First, the proper Manual 'J' heat load to get the right output regardless of source or fuel.
First, the proper Manual 'J' heat load to get the right output regardless of source or fuel.