Ratchet / Socket play! Is this acceptable?

[Nuno Silva]

Hello Everyone,

It's my first post and I hope you guys can help me! I'm a really basic DIY but I like tools, I can appreciate really well built tool and sometimes I don't mind the extra spend for that extra quality. When it comes to ratches and sockets, I use them mostly on my cars.

I originally bought a Bahco S330 set, 3/8 drive, around 5 years ago. They are made in Taiwan I believe, and the quality of the sockets is great but the ratchet is not so great. 60 teeth, smooth, but an enormous amount of play. Anyway, it served me well all these years and I love it.

Recently I decided to buy a 1/4 drive set. I wanted to step up a notch in terms of quality, so I bought the very expensive Bahco 6715MZ. This set comes with the 6950 ratchet which is famous for using the same internals as the snap-on. I have no idea if it does or not but they are extremely similar and as you'll see in the video, the plate says US PAT. The case comes with nice dense foam and all the sockets are extremely well finished.

My shock was the amount of free play I found in the ratchet, especially when connected to a socket.

Is this acceptable? because if I plug an extension the play is insane. It's even more than my cheap S330.

I tried the sockets on the spinner handle and the T bar, and they also have significant amount of play so it seems the problem is not from the ratchet. It's the socket design.

My question is: Shouldn't the socket fit very tightly? Why design a socket that wobbles about? are there advantages that I'm not seeing?

Cheers

 

[KnurledNut]

Its up to you if its acceptable.
The first 1/4 drive Snap-on dual 80’s had about the same amount of play as your ratchet.
Some complained about it.
That socket in your video seems a little over spec. Are they all that loose on the spinner handle?

 

[Nuno Silva]

Yes, they all have similar amount of play. The universal joint seems to fit a bit tighter but all sockets and extensions are the same.

Why would Bahco design the sockets like that? Because it's not the ratchet, is the socket design that allow this amount of play? Is there any advantage in having play?

 

[M6erfan]

Yes, they all have similar amount of play. The universal joint seems to fit a bit tighter but all sockets and extensions are the same.

Why would Bahco design the sockets like that? Because it's not the ratchet, is the socket design that allow this amount of play? Is there any advantage in having play?

Built in wobble feature?

 

[Dave455]

Hi, and welcome!

There are a couple of factors that affect how solidly parts lock together.

The first is the design. If you look at this old Britool extension, can you see how it has a ring forged behind the square drive?This will lock solidly, provided the socket is designed for it. Unfortunately, it’s an expensive design to make.

This Taiwanese extension, has no such feature, and will tend to wobble. (Which it does). This is the problem with your spinner handle.

It could be made better if the socket detent fitted better, but yours does not.


Ratchets are always tougher to fit rigidly, but it can be done, provided the locking ball in the square drive matches exactly the detent in the socket (which also needs to be properly designed).

Unfortunately, although both “Bahco” branded, you have a ratchet made in I think Spain (which is a copy of an American pattern, as you correctly point out) paired with a socket from a different country (probably Taiwan). They were never designed together, and the fit of many Taiwanese tools isn’t always the best.

It may be, that like a diner who drinks fine wine, your palate is becoming more educated, and you need to move up a notch in quality!

1/4 drive is always tough to get right. I find the fit of these Hazet is exceptionally good.

The sockets lock rigidly to the extensions (note the shape behind the square drive).

And the sockets lock rigidly to the ratchets.


There may be better options depending on where you are located.

 

[AEAdam]

Reminds me of my craftsman. Loose fitting sockets and extensions simply won't be as strong as tight fitting models. They also aren't fun or easily to use. My Craftsman ratchet mechanisms wobbled in the head causing friction and problems. I have a SO T72 locker that I need to warranty. It just doesn't feel right and binds a little.

I guess my answer is no, not acceptable. But I'm asking if you have to buy Snap On to get better? I'll bet Koken doesn't do that.

 

[CoThG]

This is one of the many reasons I love my Koken ratchets, sockets and extensions. Absolutely ZERO play in any of them.

 

[LWB]

This is one of the many reasons I love my Koken ratchets, sockets and extensions. Absolutely ZERO play in any of them.

Their standard sockets, the Z line or both?

 

[Nuno Silva]

Hello everyone,

Thank you all for your feedback. I really appreciate your experienced views on the subject. Thanks Dave455 for the excellent explanation.

Honestly, I'm struggling to understand this as a quality issue or a manufacturing defect. Because all of the sockets from both sets (one cheap, the other not so cheap) have the same type of play. This leads me to think that maybe there is a reason, maybe this is designed on purpose. Is it because it's easier to remove the sockets on the ratchets with no QR? Is that something professionals really value? the ability to switch socket sizes fast without getting stuck? I'm not trying to defend Bahco/Snap-On I'm just trying to understand if there is a reason behind it....

From my perspective, the things that I value the most are the perfect fitting and the repairability of the tool. But you go online and all the ratchets reviews are based on teeth count, smoothness, comfort and strength and no one ever talks about socket fitting. It made me think that maybe that's just not very important or there is a reason for a loose fit in some applications.

I'm based in the UK. I can get Hazet and Koken although the price is way higher, but I guess I'm learning why. Is there any other brand you would recommend with excellent fitting?

The 1/4 drive Bahco 6715MZ set was labelled MADE IN TAIWAN. I have a 1/2 drive Bahco set arriving soon, made in Spain I believe, I will post the differences if there are any.

Thanks again

 

[Nuno Silva]

I think this video around 2:30 explains very well what might be happening:

If you see the video until the end KoKen actually have a special wobble designed drive. So, wobble is good ;-)

 

[AEAdam]

Hello everyone,

Thank you all for your feedback. I really appreciate your experienced views on the subject. Thanks Dave455 for the excellent explanation.

Honestly, I'm struggling to understand this as a quality issue or a manufacturing defect. Because all of the sockets from both sets (one cheap, the other not so cheap) have the same type of play. This leads me to think that maybe there is a reason, maybe this is designed on purpose. Is it because it's easier to remove the sockets on the ratchets with no QR? Is that something professionals really value? the ability to switch socket sizes fast without getting stuck? I'm not trying to defend Bahco/Snap-On I'm just trying to understand if there is a reason behind it....

From my perspective, the things that I value the most are the perfect fitting and the repairability of the tool. But you go online and all the ratchets reviews are based on teeth count, smoothness, comfort and strength and no one ever talks about socket fitting. It made me think that maybe that's just not very important or there is a reason for a loose fit in some applications.

I'm based in the UK. I can get Hazet and Koken although the price is way higher, but I guess I'm learning why. Is there any other brand you would recommend with excellent fitting?

The 1/4 drive Bahco 6715MZ set was labelled MADE IN TAIWAN. I have a 1/2 drive Bahco set arriving soon, made in Spain I believe, I will post the differences if there are any.

Thanks again

I think you are right that it’s intentional. It’s intentionally cheaper to manufacture to higher (looser) tolerances. You can sell more parts from older machines, older dies etc. This is one of the hallmarks of cheap tools, and it doesn’t stop at the drive end.

 

[KnurledNut]

Those Bahco sockets have pronounced corner reliefs on the drive end.
The ones I have like that are noticeably looser.

 

[CoThG]

Their standard sockets, the Z line or both?

Both, the the Zeal line is even tighter.

 

[CoThG]

I think this video around 2:30 explains very well what might be happening:

If you see the video until the end KoKen actually have a special wobble designed drive. So, wobble is good ;-)

I have a full line of Koken Wobble-Fix extensions. When locked, there is ZERO play between the extension and the Koken socket.

 

[CoThG]

Hello everyone,

Thank you all for your feedback. I really appreciate your experienced views on the subject. Thanks Dave455 for the excellent explanation.

Honestly, I'm struggling to understand this as a quality issue or a manufacturing defect. Because all of the sockets from both sets (one cheap, the other not so cheap) have the same type of play. This leads me to think that maybe there is a reason, maybe this is designed on purpose. Is it because it's easier to remove the sockets on the ratchets with no QR? Is that something professionals really value? the ability to switch socket sizes fast without getting stuck? I'm not trying to defend Bahco/Snap-On I'm just trying to understand if there is a reason behind it....

From my perspective, the things that I value the most are the perfect fitting and the repairability of the tool. But you go online and all the ratchets reviews are based on teeth count, smoothness, comfort and strength and no one ever talks about socket fitting. It made me think that maybe that's just not very important or there is a reason for a loose fit in some applications.

I'm based in the UK. I can get Hazet and Koken although the price is way higher, but I guess I'm learning why. Is there any other brand you would recommend with excellent fitting?

The 1/4 drive Bahco 6715MZ set was labelled MADE IN TAIWAN. I have a 1/2 drive Bahco set arriving soon, made in Spain I believe, I will post the differences if there are any.

Thanks again

Koken, especially the Zeal series, will get you a zero play interface.

 

[Nutria]

Some cross-line combinations seem to be particularly bad. In my toolbox, Proto round-head ratchets and Craftsman impact sockets don't work and play well together.

 

[kbeefy]

I use sockets every day, and have been for almost 40 years. I probably have 20 different sets and at least 10 different ratchets.
To be honest, I've never given a second thought to the amount of play the socket has. Now that you mention it, I realize that all of mine have play to some amount, but I'd say I am more frustrated with the tighter fitting ones than the looser ones. I have a couple that I have to pry off.

I even have some wobble extensions that have several degrees of play built into them. I find them quite handy.

 

[Nuno Silva]

Those Bahco sockets have pronounced corner reliefs on the drive end.
The ones I have like that are noticeably looser.

You are right, I've never noticed it before!!! Why is that? Why is Bahco incorporating this design feature on their sockets? Could this be the explanation? I don't have access to different brand sets but I would love to test that theory.

 

[M6erfan]

I chalk it up to lazy/poor/cost cutting design. That's why I try to go with a socket/ratchet 'ecosystem' like Ko-ken.

 

[Nuno Silva]

Here's a close up of the drive part.

 

[M6erfan]

Here's a close up of the drive part.

I can't see any reason for that, unless to purposefully introduce wobble. Maybe it's less expensive to manufacture that way?

 

[Nuno Silva]

Koken, especially the Zeal series, will get you a zero play interface.

So, it is possible and some brands do it on a consistent basis! That is great! I would love to try one to feel the difference.

I use sockets every day, and have been for almost 40 years. I probably have 20 different sets and at least 10 different ratchets.
To be honest, I've never given a second thought to the amount of play the socket has. Now that you mention it, I realize that all of mine have play to some amount, but I'd say I am more frustrated with the tighter fitting ones than the looser ones. I have a couple that I have to pry off.

I even have some wobble extensions that have several degrees of play built into them. I find them quite handy.

Very interesting statement. Do you think this view reflects the majority of the market? If so, I can see why a brand doesn't care or specifically avoids tighter fittings. I use my ratchets occasionally so it's not a problem that they are difficult to insert and remove, but I can imagine that if I was a mechanic I would be very frustrated if they got stuck on a regular basis.

 

[KnurledNut]

It relocates stress away from the corners. Less stress riser concentration. Allows for reduced diameter drive end and lighter weight.
Especially beneficial on impact sockets, but see more and more non-impact being made this way.

 

[Nuno Silva]

I can't see any reason for that, unless to purposefully introduce wobble. Maybe it's less expensive to manufacture that way?

If anything, this is more expensive to manufacture. It's an extra step?

 

[M6erfan]

If anything, this is more expensive to manufacture. It's an extra step?

I have no idea, but I would not assume that.

 

[M6erfan]

So, it is possible and some brands do it on a consistent basis!

Yes, it's a big part of Ko-ken's philosophy.

 

[CoThG]

So, it is possible and some brands do it on a consistent basis! That is great! I would love to try one to feel the difference.


Very interesting statement. Do you think this view reflects the majority of the market? If so, I can see why a brand doesn't care or specifically avoids tighter fittings. I use my ratchets occasionally so it's not a problem that they are difficult to insert and remove, but I can imagine that if I was a mechanic I would be very frustrated if they got stuck on a regular basis.

Just got back from "playing" with my Koken Zeal sockets and wobble-fix extensions. It's so satisfying hearing and feeling the solid "click" as they snap together with zero play. The fit is so tight that's it sometimes difficult to remove the socket from the ratchet, although, a small price to pay for precision.

 

[HannibalLecter]

Time for the op to buy koken zeal and see the light

 

[Dave455]

Hello everyone,

Thank you all for your feedback. I really appreciate your experienced views on the subject. Thanks Dave455 for the excellent explanation.

Honestly, I'm struggling to understand this as a quality issue or a manufacturing defect. Because all of the sockets from both sets (one cheap, the other not so cheap) have the same type of play. This leads me to think that maybe there is a reason, maybe this is designed on purpose. Is it because it's easier to remove the sockets on the ratchets with no QR? Is that something professionals really value? the ability to switch socket sizes fast without getting stuck? I'm not trying to defend Bahco/Snap-On I'm just trying to understand if there is a reason behind it....

From my perspective, the things that I value the most are the perfect fitting and the repairability of the tool. But you go online and all the ratchets reviews are based on teeth count, smoothness, comfort and strength and no one ever talks about socket fitting. It made me think that maybe that's just not very important or there is a reason for a loose fit in some applications.

I'm based in the UK. I can get Hazet and Koken although the price is way higher, but I guess I'm learning why. Is there any other brand you would recommend with excellent fitting?

The 1/4 drive Bahco 6715MZ set was labelled MADE IN TAIWAN. I have a 1/2 drive Bahco set arriving soon, made in Spain I believe, I will post the differences if there are any.

Thanks again

Don’t overthink this.

The play isn’t particularly a defect, all the parts will be the same.

Quality issue? To a degree, but at the design stage.

You have to remember what you are buying. The original Bahco company effectively ceased to exist long ago. Bahco is just a name, passed from owner to owner to wring the most out of it.

Currently owned by SNA Europe, and applied to their lowest quality tools. Although, as you have found out, they offer different levels of quality, even the best have issues.

The play is not intentional, the ugly truth is that nobody in the company cared. They sourced a ratchet here, sockets there, and I’ll give you even money that nobody who was involved in approving the products even uses them.

To get an improvement you will have to buy tools from a company with a history of manufacturing socket wrenches, and who actually care about the brand name. SNA Europe have the history, but they don’t care about Bahco.

For fit, I advise Hazet, but you could buy Snap On, Stahlwille, Koken, KTC Nepros, or any top end manufacturer and see a considerable improvement over what you have. There is a cost attached to this, but if you buy wisely, it need not be as bad as it might!

 

[Dakotadadv8]

OP I like the picture of the person in the Milwaukee ad Home Depot. Not sure what that has to do with loose sockets on ratchet.

 

[Nuno Silva]

Don’t overthink this.

The play isn’t particularly a defect, all the parts will be the same.

Quality issue? To a degree, but at the design stage.

I do agree with this, I believe it's not really a manufacturer or quality defect, it's just cost and design choices. The problem is not the country of origin, I believe made in Taiwan or China can be of excellent quality as well.

You have to remember what you are buying. The original Bahco company effectively ceased to exist long ago. Bahco is just a name, passed from owner to owner to wring the most out of it.

Currently owned by SNA Europe, and applied to their lowest quality tools. Although, as you have found out, they offer different levels of quality, even the best have issues.

The play is not intentional, the ugly truth is that nobody in the company cared. They sourced a ratchet here, sockets there, and I’ll give you even money that nobody who was involved in approving the products even uses them.

I struggle to understand how a company would profit from degrading a brand's name and heritage that they own. My biggest surprise was to see that the expensive lines were actually not much better than the entry-level ones. And again, that does not make any sense as a managerial strategy. I actually paid very little for the sets but If I had paid the full price I would be so disappointed that I would never buy Bahco again. And that can't be good for business.

To get an improvement you will have to buy tools from a company with a history of manufacturing socket wrenches, and who actually care about the brand name. SNA Europe have the history, but they don’t care about Bahco.

For fit, I advise Hazet, but you could buy Snap On, Stahlwille, Koken, KTC Nepros, or any top end manufacturer and see a considerable improvement over what you have. There is a cost attached to this, but if you buy wisely, it need not be as bad as it might!

Any experience with Stahlwille regarding fitting? I see them a bit cheaper than Hazet and Koken.

 

[HannibalLecter]

Stahlwille is fine, koken is the best, they have actually engineered their own standards and tolerances. Once you try the zeal series you don't want to go back

 

[Dave455]

I do agree with this, I believe it's not really a manufacturer or quality defect, it's just cost and design choices. The problem is not the country of origin, I believe made in Taiwan or China can be of excellent quality as well.

I struggle to understand how a company would profit from degrading a brand's name and heritage that they own. My biggest surprise was to see that the expensive lines were actually not much better than the entry-level ones. And again, that does not make any sense as a managerial strategy. I actually paid very little for the sets but If I had paid the full price I would be so disappointed that I would never buy Bahco again. And that can't be good for business.


Any experience with Stahlwille regarding fitting? I see them a bit cheaper than Hazet and Koken.

The country of origin is part of the problem. Made in Taiwan can be reasonable quality, now, but it was not always the case. Twenty years ago everything was second rate. They didn’t have the steel and didn’t understand the product.

Today, it can be better (in fact very good) but a lot comes down to what the customer specifies. Facom have a lot of tools made in Taiwan, but most of the tools are Facom‘s own patterns, and the quality is very high. Where the Taiwanese excel is consistency - no “Friday afternoon” tools - so when something is right it tends to stay that way.

Some companies opt for a “variation” of a standard forging. The steel and heat treatment tend to be good, but internally they are all similar, and prone to a lot of play.

If China can make top quality tools, then I have yet to see them. They’re getting close, and their steel has improved, but the top end stuff still needs imported steel, and western designs.

No, there’s no sensible reason why a company would wreck it’s own brand, but it happens on a regular basis. Sometimes companies get bought out and wrecked. Sometimes they expand a product line and trade off the name for a bit - make some short term money. Sometimes it’s simple incompetence or laziness.

Yes, I have a good deal of Stahlwille in 1/4” drive. The fit of the parts is very good, but It’s not as good as Hazet. I do like Stahlwille to use. I like the flowing shape and the durable finish, but if fit is really important, go Hazet.

The fit of the KoKen is excellent. Probably the equal of Hazet. I’m surprised Stahlwille is cheaper. KoKen is usually very competitive.

KoKen make two ranges, regular, and Z Series. I am referring to the regular. If you go Z Series, the fit is probably even tighter but I have no Z Series in 1/4” drive.

Whatever you go for, try and use handles and extensions from the same maker as the sockets. This usually gets the best fit, but as you have found out, it’s not a guarantee!

 

[Dakotadadv8]

OP does it really matter as long as it can tighten the fastener. Throw it out if not happy and go to Lowes, HD, or HF.

 

[cherrybomb]

The OP has found that even if the company name stayed the same,sometimes the direction going forward and the engineering standards have changed.Sometimes profit margins change and companies respond.As you wrench more,and hang out more here,you will realize their is a lot of different prices,technology and features to be had.You decide whats best in your case,we all have probably been in your shoes,so we made our personal choices.In my case I enjoy wrenching with top tools,features that really stand out.Good luck.

 

[AEAdam]

The country of origin is part of the problem. Made in Taiwan can be reasonable quality, now, but it was not always the case. Twenty years ago everything was second rate. They didn’t have the steel and didn’t understand the product.
..

.
.
.

Whatever you go for, try and use handles and extensions from the same maker as the sockets. This usually gets the best fit, but as you have found out, it’s not a guarantee!

Dave, what about the European brands - like Facom, USAG? Are they still made in Europe? Are they any good? Are they expensive?

For DakotaDadv8: These guys are in Europe. Their version of Home Depot is called B&Q (DIY.CO.UK) and its got equally crappy tools in it. The OP could have purchased BAHCO tools which are a good step up from Kobalt etc, in their version of Pep Boys, or Advance Auto called Halfords. Halford's are pretty nice stores, may have camping supplies, bicycles, and better quality tools.

I get the surprise about BAHCO tools. Along with SANDVIK, BAHCO is a 19th c company that made VERY fine steel and very fine tools and equipment. I would say BAHCO is like Stanley for us. Once great, then maybe got too big and quality got pushed aside. Stanley seems to be trying to claw their way back in with some decent quality tools (Sweet heart chisels etc). Lets hope BAHCO can similarly recover their past glory.

 

[cherrybomb]

I've enjoyed this thread,a lot of good info.Anybody decide after reading this ,are they going to upgrade?And what convinced you?What manufacturer are you leaning to?

 

[WWheeler]

I'm of the 'If it aint broke, don't fix/replace it' crowd. I'd keep using those unless/until something actually did break. That 'slop', whether by design or defect, may well be a benefit in many situations to let the ratchet/socket combo fit in places a tighter toleranced non-flex ratchet/socket would not.

 

[CoThG]

I'm of the 'If it aint broke, don't fix/replace it' crowd. I'd keep using those unless/until something actually did break. That 'slop', whether by design or defect, may well be a benefit in many situations to let the ratchet/socket combo fit in places a tighter toleranced non-flex ratchet/socket would not.

Once you use a tool with zero slop, it's hard, if not impossible, to use a lesser tool.

 

[CoThG]

I've enjoyed this thread,a lot of good info.Anybody decide after reading this ,are they going to upgrade?And what convinced you?What manufacturer are you leaning to?

I primarily use Koken for sockets and ratchets with SnapOn for wrenches and ratchets as well.