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rattle_snake's random shop projects v0.1

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rattle_snake

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Well I got the newer master cylinder installed, but was unsuccessful in getting air out of system until I ran out of fluid. I tried to use vacuum method, then the 2-man pump the pedal method.

2kPhWEFiXzOnOSkDhOJrDTvh35=w899-h674-no?authuser=0.jpg
Astute readers may notice that this tooling is simply a moonshine jar and beer keg tubing. The fittings on the lid are backwards in this photo.
 
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ntsqd

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This isn't exactly what I have on that truck, but it is pretty close:
The filters are made by most of the names worth buying (Wix, Baldwin, FleetGuard, etc.). I think it's a Wix that is on there now.

For brake bleeding I have a truck that needed it's system flushed of the DOT 5 with IPA (alcohol, not beer) several times and then flushed again a couple of times with DOT 4 before I was willing to call it good. To do that I used a Calibration Gas bottle (roughly a 1.5 lbs Fire Extinguisher in size) and added a tube to near the bottom and a regulator on the top input. Put the fluid of choice in the bottle & connect to a bleed screw. No RPV's in the master, so ~5 psi would push the fluid and the air up to the M/C with no effort. Can take a pic if that is clear as mud.
 
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rattle_snake

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Thanks I understand. and thanks for link.

I had my younger daughter help me do another round of bleeding the old school way. Was able to get the air out. Not sure why the vaccum method did not work. put a whole quart through. Perhaps the flow rate is too slow and the bubbles just move back up hill.

After we finished she wanted to shoot some arrows, so we got to share some more time together. Her release came apart, luckily not while drawn, so we fixed that and added some locktite. I made dinner of her choice as thanks for helping out her old man
 
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rattle_snake

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Fleet maintenance is ever going and seeming easier to overlook on newer stuff. Last under hood check on '14 F250 found some corrosion on one battery terminal. Finally pickup up some treated terminal washers to install. Both battery's hold down strap had begun to corrode so I cleaned and repainted. Topped of bats and checked the rest of the fluids.

So far had good luck with this truck. At 8yrs 58k and never been back to dealer. No flash updates. It's had a few minor issues that either went away or were wear parts. Otherwise just keep driving it, tires, batteries, wipers, oil/filter changes.
Is this near-flawless experience due to the general superiority of Ford? Only the internet knows. :dunno:
 

ntsqd

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I'd love to claim that it's exclusively a Ford thing, but I suspect that it's reflective of the whole state of the art of building ground vehicles. Saw a billboard for a Ch$vy truck the other day that was offering a 20 year, 250,000 mile warranty. Only curmudgeons like me keep a vehicle that long, and I've never bought a new vehicle of any type.

Years ago we had a hyd clutch that would not bleed no matter what we did. We probably pumped 1/2 gal. of brake fluid thru the system one pump at a time over the span of several days. Turned out that the flex hose was doing something weird and allowing air into the system when not under pressure. Changed the hose and the problem went away. Imagine being the single mom, who is mechanically savvy but not a mechanic, who needed that car to get to work and her two brats (me being one of them) to school, doctor's appointments, etc. being faced with that.
 
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rattle_snake

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Completed the master cylinder swap. I chose to use the MC that matches the brakes/axles that I swapped in, which is a 1994 F350 4x4. a Ford motorcraft BRMC38. Fairly confident this vehicle had rear ABS. Rear axle has tone ring, sensor, wring. pedal ratio is approximately 5:1.

So what is the mystery fitting on the rear port? Which circuit is front/rear? Took me awhile to figure it out. Unfortunately I obsessively have to figure out every aspect of every detail to convince myself I'm doing things the most best-est way. The curse of the engineer, aside from not being able to spell or socialize.
The fitting can be a 'proportioning valve', or just an adapter. It's vehicle dependent. In the case of ABS equipped vehicles, it is just an 18x1.5mm adapter. So it does nothing. I originally bought a new Cardone MC but it was missing this piece. Could have harvested a rusty one from JY, but didn't know at that time is was just an adapter. So I decided to just get a Ford unit that is specific to the 94 F350 and complete with all fittings, sensors and wire harnesses. Everything in the brake system is new and of high quality.
So which line goes where? In this case the fitting size and line connection locations were both opposite of the old MC. Given this is a disc/drum setup, the MC piston with more volume is the front. Since bore diameter is same, then one with longer stoke is the front discs. Approximate stokes are 1.75 rear and 2.25 front, so ~75% bias. So the front brakes use the front piston with big flare nut.
nZYuqyAZCyckHUsuUiBkwMjp9L=w899-h674-no?authuser=0.jpg

The fitting are also on the opposite side (towards engine) so new hard lines were needed. Front was now too short, rear to incorporate new hardware. Front is now 1/2-20 thread 3/16 inverted flare and rear is 7/16-20 threads. The fittings are clocked past 90* so tried a few line schemes in scrap wire before going to tube. I removed the cruise control pressure switch and installed a 3/16 inverted flare plug.
8dfbAhP60Y4eOq0FlM5_0dJdrA=w899-h674-no?authuser=0.jpg

In the rear circuit I added a Willwood adjustable proportioning valve and a 10# residual valve. Supposedly the residual valve partially counteracts the drum shoe return springs and reduces the amount of travel and hence time for rear brakes to react. I farted around with placement of adjustable valve for hours trying to also incorporate windshield washer reservoir that no longer fits properly, eventually gave up and ended up making a simple mount bracket off MC.
6NEW4qofNhBjgqjkXEyJIDiTIf=w899-h674-no?authuser=0.jpg

I left distribution block and existing front brake delay device in place, to minimize changes at a time. Ran lines similar as before. They are not perfectly parallel everywhere.
ayrsz7vGq_fzdxkxp80ymIiSAV=w899-h674-no?authuser=0.jpg

I used old lines to make a short loopback line to bench bleed the MC. Hookup everything up. Amazingly no leaks. A freaking miracle! This is round 3 of these lines. Bleed and test drive.
Rear brakes lock up first so adjusted knob a few times until full decrease of pressure to rear (claimed 57%). Rear still locks up. This is major improvement to old MC without adjustable valve. Now I can apply much more pedal pressure before rear lockup and utilize the improved assist from the hydroboost. The old vacuum system would just barely lock up rear with maximum pedal effort. The hydroboost with old MC was very touchy. The new MC has a different pedal feel, softer and more movement for better braking modulation. Test drive was limited so need some more miles and higher speed stops to fully evaluate. Initial guess is 2-3x improvement in braking performance. Will make the truck MUCH safer to drive, even at 6000# with big 40" rubber.
l-37kD5vQvNcRDyNhP3NlrVPp8=w899-h674-no?authuser=0.jpg
 

OutlawDrifter

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Interesting info on that Wilwood valve...it won't allow you to completely shut off the rear brakes?
 

ntsqd

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No.
What you are adjusting is the knee point in the curve. The point where the pressure in vs. pressure out goes from 1:1 to 1:0.57, not the actual pressure reduction. This a very common misunderstanding of how p-valves work. They are not like the pressure regulators on your welding tanks.

R_S, you may need to step down one (or more) bore sizes on the rear wheel cylinders to get them to not lock up unloaded.
 
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rattle_snake

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...R_S, you may need to step down one (or more) bore sizes on the rear wheel cylinders to get them to not lock up unloaded.
Didn't know you could choose the size, thanks for info.

Wouldn't the bore of wheel cylinder have to go up instead of down? Bigger bore would move shoes less for same fluid volume? SI goes down P goes up.
 

ntsqd

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You're after a reduction in force. Drum brake's servo-action does cloud things a bit, but my view of it is that you need less total rear braking force. The servo-action is additive to the hyd force. A bigger bore would slow down the rate of shoe engagement, which would slow the servo-action as well, but would result in more total rear brake force. So it wouldn't lock as early in the cycle, but it would lock more effectively when it finally got there. You want to lessen the whole amplitude, not just flatten the curve. If, OTOH, there will be enough times where the bed is full of serious mass or it will always be full, then going larger may be worth testing. Don't I recall two fuel tanks in this beast? Keeping the rear one full will also help with braking, but it's transitory cornering response will ****. ;)

Find the limit of what the p-valve can do for you first. My preference is to set up what I call the "natural bias" so that the p-valve only does the fine tuning, not the gross adjustment. Learning how far you have to dial out the rear brakes will give a better idea of the direction to take if further changes are indicated.

There may or may not be other wheel cylinder sizes listed for the specific year-model of the axle donor, but a savvy parts guy can find some that will bolt in. This used to be a somewhat common thing to do, but the advent of disc brakes mostly killed it off.

Seems like it was a past life it was so long ago that I worked in racing disc brake design.
 
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rattle_snake

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Ok thanks for the info. Your knowledge is way past mine, and very helpful.
I see I had my math backwards, from MC perspective, fixed force. With constant pressure lower surface area results in lower force.
I see that rock auto does list wheel cylinder bore. Found some larger, imagine with some digging I can find a smaller set and try those out. Hopefully that will allow p-valve to not be saturated.

Edit:
So I see that I ordered the wrong wheel cylinders before I realized I had 1994 axles and not 1995. The front calipers are totally different. Turns out the 95 spec rear wheel cylinders are 1-1/8" and the 94 are smaller at 1-1/16". ABS is also at play but ignoring that...
So the area difference is about -10%. Not sure this is enough given p-valve is at max now. Next step is 1.000" which would be -20%.
 
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Monza Harry

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Just to add more balls to juggle Justin, there are wheel/axle travel regulators or proportioning valves [actual function unknown too me] you could add to mix just for needless complexity! Late eighties-early 90's Chevy/Geo/Suzuki's have a version of that valve [that i am refereeing to] that I am surmising is to lower rear brake action/force when the front is in a "Heavy Nose Dive"/"*** in the Air" attitude of those are short wheelbase tall CofG critters. I am not sure that those would help or if there are different types/styles to choose from either. Just throwing that out there. Harry
P.S. as an edit to my previous post the cooler on the Safari was just a hard line in a ducted wind stream very low tech, pretty reliable solution.
 

LXCam

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Justin, you’re certainly getting some good assistance here. But I have a long time relationship with a performance brake vendor for wilwood in Tempe who’s a genius on braking systems. If you’d like to talk with him let me know and I’ll get you his number plus make the intro call.
 

ntsqd

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Monza, In the Toyota 4x4 world those are known as "LSPV"'s or Load Sensing Proportioning Valves. Fairly effective on stock trucks, nearly useless on a truck with larger tires. I ran with one for two decades under my '84 Xcab (known far and wide as "Patch"). In the last half of that time I had it permanently set for max braking effect and it only hinted at wanting to lock the rears when I ran w/o the bed shell and no load in the truck. Which was almost never. In the first half of that time I could never get decent performance out of it with any adjustment.

Implementing, at least a Toyota version, requires a line from the front brake circuit run to the valve at the rear axle.
 

bradpac

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Expert brake tech going on here. Thank you all for sharing. I have a feeling my lowly Dodge will be stopping a lot better shortly after with some of this new education.
 
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rattle_snake

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Preparing for archery elk hunt coming this week. Hard to draw tag so planning to hunt most of the 10 day season. Road to hunt/camp area is a rocky ***** and travel is very slow, so hoping to not have to drive out for ice or other provisions. After scout trip I decided to use old school camper shell from '72 on my 2014. Not a good fit but adapted as needed. Tinted camper windows with cling film from HD.
Built a quick platform to sleep on and added a isolated battery setup for high power audio system.
IefY1LtIAWvCCSVY-GAZ3HYUB2=w934-h700-no?authuser=0.jpg

Used a cheap 30 AH motorcycle battery (same as my Polaris quad) with a voltage sensing battery isolator. Truck already had heavy gauge wiring in bed for cab-over camper, so half done already. Battery fits in compartment behind panel with volt meter, USB and cigar power ports. Also added some battery powered LED lights in a few places, no wires.
nTYBgn4a8JBP9x0CSxjjE9dBzH=w934-h700-no?authuser=0.jpg

Had to replace a cooler so got a $100 Lifetime (yeti knockoff) and upgraded one of my old relics with a lid gasket and better latch.
YLNNDU1bQdjA4qWiHQWDsoUQBd=w934-h700-no?authuser=0.jpg

This was a '5 day' cooler, insulated lid. I think I improved it a few days as long as lid is never opened.
qg7jpWqQzwQnBdBLCq5kMTYlBV=w934-h700-no?authuser=0.jpg
 

OutlawDrifter

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Improvements to cooler should definitely help. Do AZ Elk appreciate Hair Metal as much as we do? 😆
 
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PugetDude

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Justin, Congratulations on drawing a Bull tag. I used to hunt Wyoming every year when we had the ranch up there; we got Non Resident Landowner tags that were pulled ahead of the General Draw, we had 80+% sucees rate for 15 years. We took a lot of nice 6x6 and better bulls until the farmers convinced the G&F Dept to change the regs to any elk and extend the season to thin the herds. The big bulls were all gone in two seasons :mad: I sold it the next year.
 
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rattle_snake

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Elk hunt was successful. 4x4 Bull on 3rd day at sundown. Didn't go far and was able to recover whole animal instead of 1/4 packout. All my equipment and prep worked well. Had a fun an relaxing trip. With new moon the elk were watering at dusk for the first few days. Set up a ground blind on closest water hole in afternoons.
GsiHT9ys1xGJgTfpuv7PDRkgj=w1203-h902-no?authuser=0.jpg
Liver/kidney shot but arrow before it got jugular so easy to find in dark.

We drove past all the $100k+ triple axle 5th wheels (glampers) and camped far beyond where anyone else would. Roads are extremely rocky with thick brush in places and made only 2-3 mph with trailer. Hunted mostly on foot, did not have to leave local area to look for elk, they were all around us the whole time. The SxS road hunters helped pushed the elk back to were we already were.
wvt8OCXVG1I3zPcGzHY5YdVW6=w1203-h902-no?authuser=0.jpg

Temporary install of 80s camper shell worked out OK. Had big rain storm roll in right as we arrived, then dry and warm the rest of the trip. Isolated battery worked great, didn't have to worry or start truck to charge.
um3n1QokY2_qaUKYiiYzXUkwm=w1203-h902-no?authuser=0.jpg

Yes the log is an old man step to be able to get into the back of the truck.
 

OutlawDrifter

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Nice Bull Justin! Looks like beautiful scenery back in there!

I had been expecting an update this week. How did the coolers perform?

If you removed the lift and put factory tires on that Ford, you could probably hop right in :LOL:

The SxS hunting makes me laugh, nice to have someone push the herds your way, however. My oldest son tried coyote hunting by himself the other day, couldn't figure out why he never saw anything...then preceeded to tell me he walked ALL OVER that timber :unsure: (he wears a size 12 shoe is just shy of 6' and is clumsy....)
 

Ohmthis

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Justin, I see a problem with that elk…….it has an arrow sticking out of it! Seriously, you bagged a great bill. I’m taking my son this year for his first season of deer hunting.
 

bugnut

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Justin, congrats on a great elk and successful hunt. I too have found that going further into the woods pays off! (y)
 
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rattle_snake

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Nice Bull Justin! Looks like beautiful scenery back in there!

I had been expecting an update this week. How did the coolers perform?

If you removed the lift and put factory tires on that Ford, you could probably hop right in :LOL:

The SxS hunting makes me laugh, nice to have someone push the herds your way, however. My oldest son tried coyote hunting by himself the other day, couldn't figure out why he never saw anything...then preceeded to tell me he walked ALL OVER that timber :unsure: (he wears a size 12 shoe is just shy of 6' and is clumsy....)
Thanks, yes beautiful country. About 7100'. Pine and giant cedars.
Coolers did well. We were out for 8 days, still had plenty of ice. The Lifetime cooler definitely has superior insulation to the modified igloo. The whole contents froze back into a solid piece once up in the cooler climate. Had to break it up to get food out.
For S&G's I put the lifetime cooler outside on my patio after I got home. It had ice for 3 more day for a total of 11. 100+ degrees in direct sun in afternoons. Impressive. Great for long trips and extreme heat, but heavy and large.
Kickass Justin, nice bag bud.
Thanks Cam!
Looks like a great hunt! My sister in law's father has land up in that area and I'd love to get in on a hunt out there
It's a fun hunt and a great time out in the wilderness. Even just tagging along, hard to draw a tag.
Justin, I see a problem with that elk…….it has an arrow sticking out of it! Seriously, you bagged a great bill. I’m taking my son this year for his first season of deer hunting.
Thanks Ohm. Enjoy time spend and hunt with your son. You will both always remember the experience. Good luck!
Justin, glad you got the whole animal out, shows what your made of. Great hunt sir.
Thanks Jim. I'm slow at the process, it's on a different size/weight scale than a deer. Took 4 hours to get it back to camp, hung and skinned. Lot of meat in the neck, ribs and so on. My wife & daughters like game meat and especially sausages, brats and so on.
Congrats! What unit?
Thanks, 5B south. Mormon lake area.
Justin, congrats on a great elk and successful hunt. I too have found that going further into the woods pays off! (y)
Thanks 'nut. After the weekend we didn't see any humans for 4 days. perfect.
Had an bull come near our camp in the middle of the day and 'bark' at us, trying to figure out what we were, and scare us away.
 
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rattle_snake

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I swapped out the rear wheel cylinders on the 72 Ford. Had to redo lines as new WC has 3/8 fittings not 7/16. Rear brakes still lock up even with prop valve at max. So still not enough reduction, but brakes are significantly better than with vac booster.

I revisited anti-drive characteristics of the front link suspension. It is at about 170%, which delivers no compression to front springs under braking, but I don't think it has much impact on rear brake dynamics.
 

ntsqd

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Was it Will Rogers who said about Mormon Lake "If that was my lake I'd mow it!" Pretty country up there.

I'm no suspension guru, but my take on it is weight transfer is weight transfer whether it compresses the front suspension or not.

Oddly enough I'm in the same boat, rears on my '96 FSB lock marginally before the fronts with the ABS fuse pulled. First year 4W ABS is not smart enough for use in dirt. Pert near creamed a rock at speed during the Big Bear Bronco Bash. That would have been some irony.... I digress, anyway, pulled the ABS fuse last week while doing some extensive dirt time in SE Oregon and forgot to put it back in on the drive home. Mine I can live with. Is yours too far out there still? If it works well at low vehicle speeds you may want to try the LBS from BC Broncos. It will delay full braking of the rears until some of that transferred weight has come back.
 

bradpac

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Sorry to hear you're still having brake troubles. But your solution worked on my truck, so you were definitely on to something. I put smaller wheel cylinders (stock 1-1/8" bore from the oversized chevy 1-5/16" ones that were on it) on my truck a couple of weeks ago. Now the brakes are really good with the hydroboost. The rears aren't sensitive anymore and lock up. I also changed the pads out at the same time and readjusted everything, so that may have helped, but no more brake light coming on and no more locking up. It's still not new truck braking by any means, but it stops just fine even for daily driving with a load in the back. I have seen some guys fabricate brackets to put larger 03up front brakes on these older Dodges, I may try that next if I decide not to just live with it.
 
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rattle_snake

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Glad the smaller wheel cylinders worked out for you. After much digging I found a few smaller candidates. I called Raybestos tech line to see if they could decode their part numbers, but no luck. So I ordered some 7/8 bore units that are another -24% from the 1" I have now. Math isn't quite that simple but an estimate. Unfortunately they have 7/16 fitting so will have to redo lines again to try them.:rolleyes:
 
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rattle_snake

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yes thanks about adapters. I may try to get some in time to swap.

I took Cam up on his Willwood contact (Thanks @LXCam!). Had a short but insightful call on balancing situation. Main takeaways were:
1) Drum brakes are highly non-linear (line pressure to total friction), so matching to a disc front can be tricky
a) as discussed above, shoes wedges into drum, so total force is not just dependent on brake line pressure (servo)
b) as shoe is forced into drum, the surface contact area increases..
2) Reducing wheel cylinder size is a valid method but has it's limits. Smaller wheel cylinders made for a smaller brake assembly may run out of travel and push piston out (perhaps as shoe liner wears).
3) Two adjustable proportioning valves can be used in series if needed.
 

ntsqd

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Stacking them in series is far from ideal, but I suppose that it could work. Will be better to get closer with the natural bias and only use one or none.

Don't pay much attention to their description, it's clear to me that they don't really understand this product:
Or, a better price but ebay.....
Stewart Components used to make these, having sold the IP and who knows what else to DPI, but they're no longer in biz as best as i can tell.
edited 21/09/28 16:13 PDT
 
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