four.cycle
Well-known member
WittHay said:
Reasonable Parts Markup?
- Thread starter kythri
- Start date
What shops will pay you salary the same as you would cap out flat rate? I'd absolutely take the same money as my cap salary but theres nobody paying that, and that max number would obviously fluctuate week by week, year by year. Spark plugs on a 2016 c300 take 15 minutes, 20 if you take your time. They pay 1.2. So let's say I do three of those an hour, my boss could bill the customers for 3.6 hours worth of labor, while hes paid me 1 hours worth if my pay is in the salary/hourly position. My last shop was hourly and I liked not having any pressure on me, I learned a lot and the owner was a great guy but when you consistently beat time...all that extra money goes to the owner and not back to me. I'm now in a union shop with a guarantee and extraordinary benefits. Another reason parts wouldn't need to be marked up as high or at all, more money floating around for the business owner.
youinreverse
Well-known member
Why is this dumpster fire of a thread in the tools section and not the off topic forum?
Mike.ASC
Well-known member
Agreed , Touche' !
That hits the nail on the head.
My .02 cents is if you had a custom item built from a sketch or need a light weight frame 38 by 25 to hold a piece of canvas but withstand hurricane winds. Your ******* would be in such a bunch it would cut off circulation.
I have seen race car alignments run in to the several hundred dollars range and the only parts used were washers. When you machine them to fit they are not .25 cents anymore.
Plus depending on where you live the costs can skyrocket. But the poster I quote is dead on.
kctyphoon
Banned
So. If I understand correctly you would pay them for hours they didn't work. Interesting
The point of that post went COMPLETELY over your head. Not to mention these aren't people that are ALREADY at work standing around in a shop. They come from home, which can be an hour away, provide police cars, security, and accept ALL liability if there's an accident. ALL police get a guaranteed minimum for SHOWING UP. That's in their CONTRACT agreement..
That's not to say the local police in some towns don't try their own money grab like - shutting down all road jobs REGARDLESS of what type of street it is (it can be a dead end road) using the excuse they might need to reroute emergency vehicles (which if the road was closed, they would be on that job regardless) they can try to demand escrow accounts or won't allow work to be done - as soon as you take their money away. Suddenly those "important things" aren't so important anymore.
At which point the BIG company I work for - will tell them to go **** themselves - and hire STATE police instead - which have more authority. Suddenly - those local cops don't mind waiting to get paid, and stop trying to strongarm us Into hiring a cop for EVERY job.
The point was there guaranteed minimum is a contact agreement. They dont just "get" what we said it MIGHT BE (the total time ESTIMATE) ...
When you have to cling to that to TRY to breathe life back into your point, youre getting desperate. There is a HUGE difference between a contract and an 'estimate'.
Now watch the people who have been losing the debate of "we need to do this to keep the lights on" while they insult those who have been disproving their claims - suddenly proclaim this thread - which is about parts markup - is "a dumpster fire".. lol
What a coincidence..
I'm pretty sure most of the people here could "afford" to walk into an auto repair shop - but that's a pretty nice insult to throw at the other people on the forum.. how petty..
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englishsam
Member
Are you also one of those second rate mechanics who complain if you come across a rusty bolt or something that can make your job more difficult? Expecting your boss to call the customer and say it might cost more?
You are ripping people off by overcharging them for basic work. You are scamming them. Justify it however you like. But you are a wrong person.
Frankly I don't care what how the price breaks down as long as I'm happy. But I wouldn't put up with this Micky Mouse 'the computer says x but it looks a bit harder' rubbish.
I'm sure this was just to throw the thread off track since things weren't going your way but this seems like a pretty ignorant comment since you don't know the people posting here.
You don't know me but I can assure you a couple shop bills aren't going to break the bank. I work on my vehicles because I enjoy it and because I can do better work than my local shops.
It does really speak to your character that you look down on someone because of their income. Smh.
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kctyphoon
Banned
For the record - the thread ISNT about a $30 markup either. It's began as that in the original post and then took a turn (after people began to defend marginal markups) when people proclaimed it was honest business to double the prices because they "had to keep the lights on"...
So the shop you posted that's NOT marking up parts - has customers coming willing to drop 10 g's on their projects? What a coincidence...
That sure backfired, huh?
Maybe it's the Mac boxes that lured them in.....
So the shop you posted that's NOT marking up parts - has customers coming willing to drop 10 g's on their projects? What a coincidence...
That sure backfired, huh?
Maybe it's the Mac boxes that lured them in.....
Don't think so, to quote DR C my time is better spent working my shop that trying to fix an Audi.
Those that make decent money out side of auto repair find it is easy to just pay the man. Many of them drive new cars with warranty.
Those that drive older cars for cost effect are going to try to repair it themselves.
Most of you guys are not going to drop a grand to do rotors and pads, dropped it off late at night and they called me in morning when done.
This point in my life have done enough brakes and humped truck tires that sleeping through somebody else doing it is fine.
I am sure I could hunt about and find cheaper but it is my time I am wasting, and dealing with the same guys for 40 years as customer and them as client I know when I drive to VT the next day I will not be writing on GJ how my tire went bouncing down the road.
No? I've been pretty adamant in these threads that book time is how Im paid and how the customers are billed here. If it takes me 5 minutes or 50 minutes, if the book time is 30 minutes, the cost to the customer is the same. I also stated that we need customer approval for diag time. One hours up and found nothing? Park the car until the customer oks another hour. If they decline, make my best recommendation in the story and move onto something else. I don't decide the jobs and I don't have any interaction with the customer unless they want to ride with me or have me show or explain the issue. Outside of that service advisors have all interaction with customers, and all the jobs I tackle are all based on book time as established earlier in these threads. I do lots of warranty work and reconditioning of CPO cars, which means most times no customers are ever harmed, and Mercedes eats the bill. Oh, and I also live in Minnesota so almost every bolt I encounter is rusted and ******. Maybe find a mechanic whose not used to that and cry to them instead.
I'm not charging anybody because I'm just a technician, I just diagnose and change parts. You may be a wrong person for assuming so much about someone over a forum post tho, lol.
First you accuse me of over charging and ripping people off because I can do it faster than book time, and then in your next paragraph you think that if it takes longer than book time, you're not entitled to be charged more? Funny. You and KCtyphoon seem to want it both ways. A bit contradictory in my opinion. Thankfully for you, my shop charges based on book time, good or bad.
2ndGearRubber
Well-known member
Normal rust is part of the job, most shops accept this. IME any time required to call the customer for approval for more time, then waiting for a call back, would be longer than just dealing with the issue.
The only time times get adjusted are when they're majorly wrong or we're talking salt-truck levels of rust where even a brake job includes torches and air hammers. A light bulb pays 0.6, I can change it in 30 seconds, so I'm not charging 0.6. If a light bulb pays 0.6, but requires full bumper removal via service info, which calls for 1.0, one could see an argument for the time being incorrect, and raising it. I would leave it at 0.6, JMO. I had one of those jobs in last week, labor for pulling the washer motor was like 0.6. Luckily the customer had wrecked the car, and damaged the bumper, leaving a football sized hole exposing the pump. 0.1 was a much more fair labor charge in that instance. Counter-point, when a customer has a big-*** brush guard installed, and I need to pull the bumper, time needs added for the brush guard.
It's a labor guide for making estimates easier, it's not a legal document.
Now if the guy doing the work is getting paid flat rate, he need to get paid the stated time, no cutting it down. IF the shop wants to defer the cost to the customer that's fine, but the guy doing the work needs paid. That's not really what's being discussed here though.
People use RA and Amazon for price comparisons. Shops are annoyed by this because a shop is paying MORE than RA or amazon pricing buying from a local wholesaler. It's not an apples to apples comparison.
It's not like there's anything inherently wrong with a part purchased there. But it's unfair to act like you should be paying RA/Amazon prices for parts when the shop is typically paying more than that.
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kctyphoon
Banned
I believe I've said the OPPOSITE of your" having it both ways" description. .. Just fyi.. no need to invent opinions for me - I have my own, and don't mind sharing them.
I support people being paid for honest work. I don't support money just be taken from anyone simply because someone ELSE is in a position to do so.
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Downwindtracker 2
Well-known member
This is an interesting discussion on shop economics. On the mechanics level at flat rate, there can be sorting of the jobs in bigger shops.
I dunno, I explicitly asked here and you never really gave an answer.
You did kinda give an answer below but it all relates to finishing early and nothing of finishing late. You mention elsewhere if book time says its 4 hours, a worker should work 4 hours, but you never again answered if I finished late. You did say people bring their car to a mechanic because he should know what hes doing...I'm not sure if you're implying that a good mechanic should always be @ or below book time?
Its simple, are you ok with being charged 8 hours for a 4 hour job because your car is covered in road grime/salt/dirt/rust? What if the mechanic doesn't work fast and he charges you 7 hours instead of the 4 book time hours, at least hes working?
kctyphoon
Banned
Listen man, I’ve beaten this to death and my opinions are written clear enough for anyone to understand them. Every one of you guys tries to either put words in my mouth, pass insults, or change the narrative to attempt to make your points. You even went back in the thread hoping you could use my own words against me - and couldn’t.. NUFF SAID..
Its pretty obvious that theres a group of people in here that just view customers as idiots, and feel more entitled to The customer’s money then those customers are. It’s been very revealing and just proves my point why the industry has EARNED the reputation it has, all by themselves.
(Enter Anti-Union Comments Below)
richfinn
Well-known member
There are a few reasons why flat rate is the "normal" way for shops to bill out labour time and it wont change any time soon!!!
1. The vehicle manufacturer does not want to overpay
dealers and authorised repair workshops for warranty
work/recalls or updates.
2. It gives the dealers a guide on what to charge
retail and fleet customers (fleet/lease/insurance
companies know the times and employ engineers to
keep labour costs on target)
3. Independents have to adopt "book times" to some
extent because they want to compete directly with
dealers for a slice of the pie because that is where
the money is at
With this in mind, remember that techs paid on flat rate are more or less subcontractors who supply the tools and labour to a workshop, if the tech buys a $$$$$$ tool that helps him become more efficient, lets say it cuts the job time by 25%
Or that tech spends £££££ of his own money and his own time going on training courses to really hone his diagnostic prowess, so he can beat the book times consistently
Who should benefit financially from the investment in training and clever tool purchases???
Shop??
Customer??
Technician??
1. The vehicle manufacturer does not want to overpay
dealers and authorised repair workshops for warranty
work/recalls or updates.
2. It gives the dealers a guide on what to charge
retail and fleet customers (fleet/lease/insurance
companies know the times and employ engineers to
keep labour costs on target)
3. Independents have to adopt "book times" to some
extent because they want to compete directly with
dealers for a slice of the pie because that is where
the money is at
With this in mind, remember that techs paid on flat rate are more or less subcontractors who supply the tools and labour to a workshop, if the tech buys a $$$$$$ tool that helps him become more efficient, lets say it cuts the job time by 25%
Or that tech spends £££££ of his own money and his own time going on training courses to really hone his diagnostic prowess, so he can beat the book times consistently
Who should benefit financially from the investment in training and clever tool purchases???
Shop??
Customer??
Technician??
Downwindtracker 2
Well-known member
"Its pretty obvious that theres a group of people in here that just view customers as idiots, and feel more entitled to The customer’s money then those customers are. It’s been very revealing and just proves my point why the industry has EARNED the reputation it has, all by themselves. "
TV programs like Marketplace in Canada when they need a idea for a program, trot out auto repair shops. The latest one I saw the shops weren't anymore competent, but they were more honest.
TV programs like Marketplace in Canada when they need a idea for a program, trot out auto repair shops. The latest one I saw the shops weren't anymore competent, but they were more honest.
Your opinions are not clear tho, and you avoided answering the question. You've avoided answering it for like 5 pages now. In fact, 2ndGearRubber asked you on page 11 after I asked you, and you again AVOIDED the question.
https://www.garagejournal.com/forum/showpost.php?p=8361704&postcount=216
Oh and here's a giant ******* contradiction in just two posts you made in a span of less than 4 hours. Explain to me how two contradicting points is a clear opinion?
I'm starting to wonder if you're coherent and sober when you write these posts. That above is a glaring contradiction which I'm happy to highlight over and over again. Just remember everyone, you should be able to sue the mechanic for billing over 8 hours in a day but the hairstylist? He can bill more than 8 hours due to his experience and performance level. This is comical. Thanks for the laughs.
Oh, and I work for a union, go us?
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WittHay
Well-known member
The repair places with the most parts markup are usually the chain stores that have younger mechanics with the cheaper tool boxes and tools. The place where your mother or daughter would go to have their cars fixed. Nice waiting room. everybody wears uniforms and absolutely no way you can bring your own parts. Should be a big thumbs up because lots of HF and the like tools involved.
The places with no parts markup are illegal and not advertised. Somebodys garage or a shed somewhere. You can bring your own parts as long as there from a local parts place and charge accounts are used in case of wrong parts. There is no paperwork and I am amazed at the work that is done at these places. Usually well worn quality tools are used but the tools trucks are on speed dial in case of special tools
Then you have a mix of independent shops that usually have the big Snap-on or tool truck boxes. Parts markup is list price which in my area is about double from the repair shop cost. They are always busy . Its hard to understand but the less parts markup and the easier it lets customers bring parts the more expensive or less accessible that shop is to a ordinary customer. Cant help it if it hurts people feelings. There can not be any sticker shock, warranty concerns or just general problems
The places with no parts markup are illegal and not advertised. Somebodys garage or a shed somewhere. You can bring your own parts as long as there from a local parts place and charge accounts are used in case of wrong parts. There is no paperwork and I am amazed at the work that is done at these places. Usually well worn quality tools are used but the tools trucks are on speed dial in case of special tools
Then you have a mix of independent shops that usually have the big Snap-on or tool truck boxes. Parts markup is list price which in my area is about double from the repair shop cost. They are always busy . Its hard to understand but the less parts markup and the easier it lets customers bring parts the more expensive or less accessible that shop is to a ordinary customer. Cant help it if it hurts people feelings. There can not be any sticker shock, warranty concerns or just general problems
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WittHay
Well-known member
The company's that cater to the average working person charge the most parts markup because of the potential problems not because of income level.
Lets see if I can explain this to you. All 3 shops in the pictures are within 2 miles of each other.
The first advertises reasonable rates. Whatever reasonable rates are for servicing Ferrari, Lamborghini and McLaren. A small business servicing a certain clientele that is way above my pay grade and i could care less if they look down on me.
The 2nd shop is owned by a friend, Honest , flexible with prices. What are your thoughts if you pulled up to a shop and see those 3 vehicles parked out front?.
The 3 rd is your typical chain store. Lowest paid employees but with the highest parts markup. There is a manager, assistant manager, tire guys and 1 or 2 counter people. They are paid so somebody with a minivan can come in and get tires or work done and everything is above board. This is the most expensive type of shop to run
Attachments
Let me guess.... You whiners and bitchers are also the ones that expect the collision shop to fix your damage then waive your deductible.
It is all about you, right?
I can't believe this thread has stunk up the board for six days running.
It is all about you, right?
I can't believe this thread has stunk up the board for six days running.
kctyphoon
Banned
Why don't you repost ALL of that explanation I gave using examples????
I’m starting to wonder if you can read...
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kctyphoon
Banned
Ok - lets be done with this.. multiple mechanics in here have talked about how if they work faster they make more money by being able to collect the total HOURS the jobs are being billed for - and if they are fast - they can even bill out 15 hours of labor in an 8 hour day.. OK - so the dealerships are CLEARLY billing BY THE HOUR for labor. YES? Great.. they can twist the definitions of whatever creative words they like, like contract, quote, estimate - but its HOURS of labor they get paid by, and HOURS of labor of what’s billed out. They said it themselves.
To eliminate any wiggle room - lets say a Customer schedules to have maintenance done on his car. So there is no time in diagnosing, theres actually nothing really ‘wrong’ with the car, he just wants fluids and filters changed. (Hypothetically of course).. But you can imagine any type of service of you like, this part doesn’t really matter to the question. The customer is told this service will probably take 4 hours to do. (Their estimate) He (obviously) believes this to be an accurate representation of the time it WILL take to do this.
Customer installs a hidden camera in his car and records its time at the dealer. On clear, crisp, 4K video - he records his car being pulled in, worked on, and pulled out of the service area. Total time between when the car enters and leaves is 1 hour.. he’s given a bill stating the service took a total of 4 hours of labor, plus parts, plus fees, plus tax.. He pays the bill, his money is taken, the transaction is complete. customer goes home, watches video.
Customer then files a lawsuit for fraud. Both parties report to a courtroom. Customer presents his receipt that clearly states it took the tech 4 hours of labor to accomplish a service, plus the cost of parts and other fees - with a video of the entire time his car was actually “Labored” on.. 1 hour.. Dealership arrives with a book that states the service ‘should’ take 4 hours. The customer’s claim is he was overcharged on labor. The dealership’s claim is it doesn’t matter how long the service actually took, and even though they only labored for an hour, they are entitled to collect 4 hours of labor regardless.
Who will most likely win this case?
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According to a Michigan attorney it might depend on the state but in Michigan the shop would win if the quote was provided up front.
richfinn
Well-known member
To answer your "very hypothetical" question
If the technician had completed every single item of the 4 hr service as per manufacturers instructions and documented everything correctly within 1hr
Then yeah, pay the man. He's the "Flat rate Daddy" and the Judge needs to shake his hand
If the tech just did an oil change and reset the service lamp and then said "meh, f*ck it nobody will know about the rest of the stuff" then the judge should send the tech to jail and compensate the customer.
When I was on flate rate the reality was you actually got
0.7hrs for an oil change service and 1.2hrs for a full service and if you were lucky and fast you might beat the book by 5 to 10 mins (which add up over a month)
I think part of the problem is techs boasting they can make 12 hrs in an 8hr day every day, this is mostly
********, because if you were that fantastic they would promote you to salary and put you on diagnostics or management
To be clear its shaving a few minutes off "book time"
with good tools and training not 3hrs off a 4hr job
bczygan
Well-known member
Around here retail is $59 plus tax, so 100% markup for you. What you can get it for has no bearing on things.
Bill
I actually think this has been an enlightening thread. Good posts from both sides of the debate.
As a consumer I'm just trying to figure out how to tell a good shop from a bad one. Several shop owners have posted good explanations of their practices which has been helpful.
I genuinely would like a response to my posts #253, 264. Why the shell game with billing? If it really is an honest practice why not make it transparent?
Some people just got butthurt because they've been exposed... and that's ok too.
Sent from my iPhone using The Garage Journal mobile app
richfinn
Well-known member
If you dont shop purely on price, look for a busy independent brand specialist with good reviews.
They tend to follow manufacturer times, have the correct tools and use OE parts (which dont have high mark ups), plus they know your vehicles quirks and needs
They will be beating some book times regularly though because of the knowledge and experience
signcrafter
Well-known member
- Joined
- May 9, 2012
- Messages
- 12,320
I think you are hung up on the fact that a shops quote has hours written on it, shops are not billing by the hour unless they are doing time and materials. Yes, the quote your receive and agree to before a repair says 4.7 hours @100 bucks an hour. Shops have a couple ways to come up with quotes and it's really no different then how a utility company quotes jobs they do. I believe you work in that industry if I'm not mistaken so I chose that as an example. Any company, be it a utility company bidding a underground wire job or an auto repair shop bidding a water pump replacement, tries to guess the amount of time it will take to complete the job. Then multiplies that by an hourly rate they need to make to keep the doors open. Pretty simple concept actually in business. So a utility company uses experience and other factors to guess how long a job will take on average and then send out a quote. An auto shop is doing the same exact thing, except they have a "book" that tells them how long the job should take on average.
Now, when it comes time to do the job it really doesn't matter how many hours it takes. Lets use the utility company example of running some underground lines. Two companies give quotes and come in close to each other and one company gets the job. They both based those quotes off how many hours they thought it would take to complete the job and how much they have to charge per hour to keep the doors open. Company A buys a bunch of shovels and hires a bunch of guys to start digging. It takes longer hours but no expensive machines. Company B buys a boring machine to bore underground and pull the wires. This is a LOT faster then digging a trench by hand and tearing up all the yards. But the machine was a huge investment. So since company B got the job done in half the time they should only get paid half of what company A would have got paid according to your theory right? Even though they used experience and invested in machines to get the job done faster.
This is the same concept as auto repair. The only difference I see is that for some reason repair shops write these book time hours on the estimate. Not sure how that came about, maybe it was in an effort to be transparent with how they came up with the quote total? Who knows but it's how it's done. But the fact is the shop just uses that number to get his quote total. It's not an actual number to stick to as to billable hours. If that's how you want to do it then find a shop that will do time and materials, because that's basically what you're asking for. Then if the job takes 2 hours then you pay for two hours labor, if it takes 10 hours then you pay for 10 hours of labor. It's a gamble, you are betting on the shop finishing before the estimated time, may work out, may not. But when you go by book time you don't pay more then that time, even if it does call for 4.7 hours and it takes 10 hours.
Maybe shops should stop writing the hours on the quote? Still use book time to come up with a total price on the quote but not tell the customer what book time is for that car. Just let the customer choose to do the repair based on a total price. Then they can't ***** about how long it took.
richfinn
Well-known member
You cant expect the shop to gift you their 15% parts discount and the 15 minutes the tech managed to shave off the job time, it's just not reasonable after all the training and expenditure on tools.
If your shop is charging you 4hrs for a 1hr job and billing more than the rrp price of genuine parts
Look elsewhere!!!!
If your shop is charging you 4hrs for a 1hr job and billing more than the rrp price of genuine parts
Look elsewhere!!!!
Do you ever have anything productive to add or are you just a troll?
I understand you're trying to derail things because you don't like direction the debate has headed but you don't need to be an ***.
If you're that triggered stop reading this thread and go post something in one of the threads bashing shop customers to make yourself feel better.
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bmwpowere36m3
Well-known member
- Joined
- Nov 8, 2012
- Messages
- 1,125
+1
Book time is just a guide and shops [independent] can use it as the basis for estimates. It goes both ways, where the shop or the customer can benefit. From personal experience, my family owned and ran an independent shop specializing in Mercedes... estimated/billed hours were a mix of actual and book time. Over the years, you find certain jobs take less time and we'd bill less for them to be fair and at times more competitive. In addition, loyal customers would generally get treated better with rates/times.
Like any other field the better you are, the more you expect to be paid. So you can either charge a higher hourly rate and take less time or the same rate as local competitors and finish the job quicker. Usually the latter is the game, since many customers shop around on the basis of hourly rates... not necessary how well or quick shops can perform the work.
Just adding a little levity to a thread that has vaporized a dead horse.