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Rebel Pioneer Mini Split Install

co-pilot

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OK just wanted to give a big "Thank You" to Jonathan75 for your time and honesty on your install .... took all your advice, followed directions & my install went smooth!!
Garage is ice cold! ha ha
thanks again
 
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walterjames

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sasineni

I know this is a year late, we are debating between a pioneer and a LG. pioneer and LG are about the same seer rating. On heat the LG works till -4 F. They both have Daikin beat on seer the Daikin is just 18. so pioneer for 2100.00 or LG for 2800.00. Every manufacture about the same plus or minus a 100.00 on the invertor (except Mitsubishi) it is the indoor heads that seem to vary a lot from manufacture to manufacture.


Anyway to the lineset issue and he thick Block wall, there is a braided flex line set that is about 18" long it looks like a shut off valve- to faucet SS braided supply line, except handles high pressure. They are online and Johnstone supply carries them. Mainly used when snaking lines up a finished wall to the wall mount unit. Would of been perfect for your application. Just wanted to put it out there for anyone else in the same situation.
 
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Will S.

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sasineni

I know this is a year late, we are debating between a pioneer and a LG. pioneer and LG are about the same seer rating. On heat the LG works till -4 F. They both have Daikin beat on seer the Daikin is just 18. so pioneer for 2100.00 or LG for 2800.00. Every manufacture about the same plus or minus a 100.00 on the invertor (except Mitsubishi) it is the indoor heads that seem to vary a lot from manufacture to manufacture.
.........................

This may or may not matter, but a friend built an attached auto-workshop on his house, and had an LG mini-split heatpump installed. First of all, ths indoor (casette) unit actually was noisey. Both the tech that installed it and LG said that was "normal". I heard it, and wouldn't have put up with it. But it worked fine, for nearly 2 seasons. When it quit, the warranty only covered some parts, but not all, and no labor. The repair cost was going to be more than $1500. He scrapped it, and had a Mitsubishi mini-split installed.

Actually he did the mechanicals and electrical, since it was an easy swap. Then had an HVAC guy come in a do the evac/PT/start-up, and warranty regis. That has been 2 years now, and it is quiet, and works great in both heat and cool.

If I were choosing between Pioneer or LG, my money would be on Pioneer. I just installed a MrCool, which is the same unit as Pioneer, and I will be installing a 2nd one in a detached garage. No LG for me.
 
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chrispyny

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I know its still early and i only finished my install at the beginning of may, but my pioneer 18k and two 9k head unit is KICKING ****. Absolutely love it.
 

walterjames

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The repair cost was going to be more than $1500. He scrapped it, and had a Mitsubishi mini-split installed.

If I were choosing between Pioneer or LG, my money would be on Pioneer. I just installed a MrCool, which is the same unit as Pioneer, and I will be installing a 2nd one in a detached garage. No LG for me.

I would love a Mitsubishi or Fujitsu; but the price of the Mitsubishi is ridiculous comparing it to any other, manufacturer, Fujitsu follows.

My feeling is one could buy almost 3 pioneers compared to one Mitsubishi! Especially with multi head units.
 

walterjames

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I know its still early and i only finished my install at the beginning of may, but my pioneer 18k and two 9k head unit is KICKING ****. Absolutely love it.

Question:

Some people complain that Pioneers line sets are a bit flimsy, and heat wise it is not great. Any thoughts or comments on those two matters? (You may of not had the conditions to put heat to the test. But you are in the perfect location for it)!


Other wise your install is almost what we need 9/18K. is it in your shop or house?


Did you buy the Triple zone invertor or quad?




Thanks in advance
 
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walterjames

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By the way:

Our situation is:
Our central ac gave out.

We still have gas forced air heat for back up.

Our winters are not too harsh but can get 5 degrees or less for a week or 2.

But equipment cost alone a mini split is same price and way more efficient (higher SEER) then central ac. Our HVAC equipment is in attached garage/shop. So it it is not in conditioned space or basement.
 

freebird1963

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New here. Found this place while researching Pioneer MS. Hopefully one of the older post guys will see it.
For those that installed 3-4 years ago how are your Pioneers holding up ? Still kicking strong ? Any issue crop up ?
We are looking at 2 3 head units to replace our Central Heat/Air here in Florida.
Thanks
Mark
 
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New here. Found this place while researching Pioneer MS. Hopefully one of the older post guys will see it.
For those that installed 3-4 years ago how are your Pioneers holding up ? Still kicking strong ? Any issue crop up ?
We are looking at 2 3 head units to replace our Central Heat/Air here in Florida.
Thanks
Mark

I haven't had mine for that long (a little over a year) but mine has held up great over in Mount Dora, Fl. :beer:
 

GJGJ

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This was one hell of a thread. Would love to hear some updates from Pioneer owners, or owners of any other similar mini-split brands.
 
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J

jonathan75

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This was one hell of a thread. Would love to hear some updates from Pioneer owners, or owners of any other similar mini-split brands.
Works great for heating and cooling. Mine leaks a little so I have to refill every year but I do that myself. This year I will add some stop leak. I can even turn it on using voice command with Amazon Alexa and Harmony Hub.

Sent from my Pixel 2 using Tapatalk
 

justinjoyal

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Works great for heating and cooling. Mine leaks a little so I have to refill every year but I do that myself. This year I will add some stop leak. I can even turn it on using voice command with Amazon Alexa and Harmony Hub.

Sent from my Pixel 2 using Tapatalk

And why not properly fix it ? :headscrat
 

GJGJ

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@justinjoyal, Probably because in this imperfect world you need to choose your battles.

@jonathan75, do you add charge with the system running? I guess it probably doesn't matter since you're guesstimating a top off weight and not by some pressure/temp ratio. And I think there's an accumulator before the compressor that protects it from liquid refrigerant, though I'm not sure.
 

justinjoyal

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@justinjoyal, Probably because in this imperfect world you need to choose your battles.

@jonathan75, do you add charge with the system running? I guess it probably doesn't matter since you're guesstimating a top off weight and not by some pressure/temp ratio. And I think there's an accumulator before the compressor that protects it from liquid refrigerant, though I'm not sure.



It’s not like fixing a leak on a mini-split is a big deal... venting R410a into the atmosphere, on the other hand...
 

GJGJ

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For those wondering, Pioneer says you need to have the system running when adding extra refrigerant. They respond to questions very quickly.
 

jjgrappler

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I would love a Mitsubishi or Fujitsu; but the price of the Mitsubishi is ridiculous comparing it to any other, manufacturer, Fujitsu follows.

My feeling is one could buy almost 3 pioneers compared to one Mitsubishi! Especially with multi head units.

We just priced out mini splits this year. Mitsubishi came in with the 2nd lowest price and Daikin was the highest. The lowest was a Fujitsu system with a 10 year warranty. All the other quotes included a 12 year warranty.
 

SALIV8

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We just priced out mini splits this year. Mitsubishi came in with the 2nd lowest price and Daikin was the highest. The lowest was a Fujitsu system with a 10 year warranty. All the other quotes included a 12 year warranty.

He was talking about system prices themselves, without install.

If you compare system prices, Mitsubishi and some others you mentioned are almost double (if not more) than other systems with comparable warranties.
 
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Poking my head in. Several people i talked to recommended daikin. Its not *that* much more expensive, if it really is top shelf... but their warranty disclaimer kills anything but a "pro" install.

Does anyone know what parts are in the pioneer units? example; are they using good parts from other supplies or their own. Parts costs... are replacement parts cheaper than the "top tier" brands?

Its good to hear positive feedback on these pioneer units.
its $400 cheaper for a 17 seer pioneer than a 17 seer daikin and about $600 cheaper for a 20.5 seer pioneer vs a 20 seer diakin.
 

Probedude

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Poking my head in. Several people i talked to recommended daikin. Its not *that* much more expensive, if it really is top shelf... but their warranty disclaimer kills anything but a "pro" install.

Does anyone know what parts are in the pioneer units? example; are they using good parts from other supplies or their own. Parts costs... are replacement parts cheaper than the "top tier" brands?

Its good to hear positive feedback on these pioneer units.
its $400 cheaper for a 17 seer pioneer than a 17 seer daikin and about $600 cheaper for a 20.5 seer pioneer vs a 20 seer diakin.
Compare air flow between the two units. I have a 12K 17 seer unit and the air cfm inside is much lower than 'well known' brands. Also mine the firmware acts funny as it has a higher cooling delta across in the inside evaporator when it's hot outside and less so when it's cool outside, even with the inside air being relatively the same temp between the two conditions. Frustrating when we have company in the dining room and the outside air is cooler than the inside air. I'll be replacing this Pioneer with a different brand soon.
 

jjrbus

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When doing my due diligence and I did a lot of it, I found that in my area with my electric rates 0.076 kw, according to the online calculators the payback period got up into the teen years. Plus in my past experience, higher efficiency means more things to go wrong, one service call wipes out years of savings. So bought the 15 seer Daikin. This is of course the way I read it, you may see it different.

I also noticed in videos that the pro's were installing Mitsubishi, Fujitsu and Daikin. I also found that Daikin uses thicker copper in the coils same as the other two high end machines. The rest use thin copper. With most leaks being in coils it seems like a good thing. I am basically without a warranty so skipped the high dollar units. Warranty's are mostly for parts and do not cover labor so the way I see it better to buy a new unit if one goes belly up.

I have had my three Daikin in for 1 1/2 years, they are too efficient and my humidity runs high, am now experimenting with using dry mode or adding a dehumidifier. I am in high humidity Florida.

The unit in the master bedroom is pointing at the bed, if doing again I would not do it this way as I find the constant breeze annoying.

I got mold in the main unit and it is an absolute PIA to remove the bower wheel to clean. Mini splits get a big fat ZERO for serviceability. Daikin is not the worst from what I see online. The bags and sprayers available online were not working with the mess I had! Google mold on mini bower wheel.

My electric bill for July pre minis would be in the $125 to $150 area, this July it was $86. The minis are used differently so almost an apples to oranges comparison. Office is kept warm, bedroom is kept cool, more control. Use very little heat, but heat pump really shines on energy savings for heat!

And of course only my opinion and worth what you are paying for it.
 
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LS6 Tommy

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I pressure tested it by allowing the refrigerant to flow in some after I did the vacuum. I closed the valve back down and tested all the connections.

Just FYI, the proper installation technique is to leak check with dehydrated nitrogen at 300# minimum (or what the install manual calls for) before you evcaute (pull a vacuum). :thumbup:

Tommy
 
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jonathan75

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Just FYI, the proper installation technique is to leak check with dehydrated nitrogen at 300# minimum (or what the install manual calls for) before you evcaute (pull a vacuum). [emoji106]



Tommy
I didn't have compressed nitrogen at the time. But I keep a tank on hand now.

Sent from my Pixel 2 using Tapatalk
 
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When doing my due diligence and I did a lot of it, I found that in my area with my electric rates 0.076 kw, according to the online calculators the payback period got up into the teen years. Plus in my past experience, higher efficiency means more things to go wrong, one service call wipes out years of savings. So bought the 15 seer Daikin. This is of course the way I read it, you may see it different.

I also noticed in videos that the pro's were installing Mitsubishi, Fujitsu and Daikin. I also found that Daikin uses thicker copper in the coils same as the other two high end machines. The rest use thin copper. With most leaks being in coils it seems like a good thing. I am basically without a warranty so skipped the high dollar units. Warranty's are mostly for parts and do not cover labor so the way I see it better to buy a new unit if one goes belly up.

I have had my three Daikin in for 1 1/2 years, they are too efficient and my humidity runs high, am now experimenting with using dry mode or adding a dehumidifier. I am in high humidity Florida.

The unit in the master bedroom is pointing at the bed, if doing again I would not do it this way as I find the constant breeze annoying.

I got mold in the main unit and it is an absolute PIA to remove the bower wheel to clean. Mini splits get a big fat ZERO for serviceability. Daikin is not the worst from what I see online. The bags and sprayers available online were not working with the mess I had! Google mold on mini bower wheel.

My electric bill for July pre minis would be in the $125 to $150 area, this July it was $86. The minis are used differently so almost an apples to oranges comparison. Office is kept warm, bedroom is kept cool, more control. Use very little heat, but heat pump really shines on energy savings for heat!

And of course only my opinion and worth what you are paying for it.

thanks for the feedback. im in south louisiana. hot and humid here. my electricity is almost 12cent/KW, pretty high. im plan to use (2) 24k units for my 40x40 shop.
 

Romanova

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Great thread with some great information. I'm seriously considering a mini-split for my garage. As far as drilling the hole for the line set, how are you guys getting the angle correct? FWIW, I'll be going through drywall and then through brick.

Also, I have a standard two car garage in TX with a garage door that faces the sun all afternoon. The door is insulated and I've put some insulation in the attic above but the walls are not insulated. An 18,000BTU unit should do the trick, right?
 

LG63

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Great thread with some great information. I'm seriously considering a mini-split for my garage. As far as drilling the hole for the line set, how are you guys getting the angle correct? FWIW, I'll be going through drywall and then through brick.

I knew it wasn't going to be practical to bore the hole that accurately so I went a quarter inch oversize on the hole and tweaked the position of the indoor unit to get the angle on the drain line. As it turns out I probably didn't need to go oversize on the hole. I don't have a Pioneer but I'm sure the same concept applies.
 

jjrbus

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I knew it wasn't going to be practical to bore the hole that accurately so I went a quarter inch oversize on the hole and tweaked the position of the indoor unit to get the angle on the drain line. As it turns out I probably didn't need to go oversize on the hole. I don't have a Pioneer but I'm sure the same concept applies.

I have a set of Harbor Freight 24 inch carbide drill bits. Drilled the pilot hole at correct angle with a 1/4 inch one, same size as the pilot bit in the hole cutter. Drilled inside to out through concrete block wall the hole cutter, first inside then outside and chipped out the little bit that was left. Bit of a pain but I do not want to buy a 12 inch carbide hole cutter and a drill to power it. Renting them is a bit pricey also.
 

QwikKotaTx

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What a great thread. I did not know there was an affordable product that also had DIY warranty support. A few questions:

110V vs 230V: My panel box is located about 10' away from where I would mount the unit. I have a ton of 12/2 wiring. It looks to only pull 9A or so with the 110V 12k btu unit. Is there any reason to go with one or the other? I would probably need 12/3 wire for 220V, no?

12k vs 18k btu: Garage is ~480 sq ft. I plan to insulate the garage door due to afternoon sun and insulate and sheetrock or OSB the ceiling. Currently have a powerful furnace blower fan to keep the attic space cool, would be pulling in cool air through soffit vents. If it didn't keep things reasonably cool, such as 80° during 95° days, I would insulate the walls.

Vacuum pump/gauges: Can an automotive pump evacuate this unit? I can rent them from Autozone. I have A/C gauges for R-134a. Can I purge that and use on these mini splits?

Thanks for any help. Debating between sizing. 18k btu unit is only available in 230V.
 

jjrbus

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$#@%^ set screw on the motor side, 30 minutes and could not find it. Got the neighbor he cant find it ???? Spent waaaaay too much time online trying to find it, nothing!

Daikin and I do not know who else uses an external rotor motor so there is no set screw the fan simply pulls out. Best to Google clean mini split blower wheel and look for people pulling the wheel to get an idea what is involved.
 

LS6 Tommy

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What a great thread. I did not know there was an affordable product that also had DIY warranty support. A few questions:

110V vs 230V: My panel box is located about 10' away from where I would mount the unit. I have a ton of 12/2 wiring. It looks to only pull 9A or so with the 110V 12k btu unit. Is there any reason to go with one or the other? I would probably need 12/3 wire for 220V, no?

The 230V unit will be more efficient. You need to use the wiring size the manual calls for.

Vacuum pump/gauges: Can an automotive pump evacuate this unit? I can rent them from Autozone. I have A/C gauges for R-134a. Can I purge that and use on these mini splits?


No and no. An vacuum pump designed specifically for MVAC won't pull a deep enough vacuum. You need the proper guages for 410A.



Thanks for any help. Debating between sizing. 18k btu unit is only available in 230V.

Tommy
 

QwikKotaTx

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Thank you for the info. The 18k btu 230V unit only shows about 8amps of pull. The Chart only goes down to 10 amps which is 18ga, very small. I am thinking 12 gauge would be fine.

Is a separate disconnect required on the wall or can it be direct wired to the breaker?
 

dcg9381

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Is a separate disconnect required on the wall or can it be direct wired to the breaker?

In theory, if the breaker was exterior, line of site, and accessible you could use just the breaker. If it's not, you need a disconnect, Ref NEC 440.13.


Also, I have a standard two car garage in TX with a garage door that faces the sun all afternoon. The door is insulated and I've put some insulation in the attic above but the walls are not insulated. An 18,000BTU unit should do the trick, right?

People are going to tell you run a manual-J calculation (which is the correct advice).

2-car is about 22x24 or so (give or take).

We have NO idea if your garage is insulated - that's the biggest variable.


Assuming standard bat insulation in 2x4 walls and some attic or roof insulation, my SWAG is that 18k will get 'r done in Texas... You'll be fighting that not-so-insulated garage door though..
 

QwikKotaTx

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In theory, if the breaker was exterior, line of site, and accessible you could use just the breaker. If it's not, you need a disconnect, Ref NEC 440.13.









People are going to tell you run a manual-J calculation (which is the correct advice).



2-car is about 22x24 or so (give or take).



We have NO idea if your garage is insulated - that's the biggest variable.





Assuming standard bat insulation in 2x4 walls and some attic or roof insulation, my SWAG is that 18k will get 'r done in Texas... You'll be fighting that not-so-insulated garage door though..
Thanks. The condensing unit would be on the same Wall as the panel box. Line of sight and all outside. I would insulate garage door as best I could and put in some sweeps/seals around top and sides. Garage is about that size and online sizing calls for 12k but assuming insulation is perfect and light sun so 18k is definitely required.

Sent from my VS987 using Tapatalk
 

LS6 Tommy

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Thank you for the info. The 18k btu 230V unit only shows about 8amps of pull. The Chart only goes down to 10 amps which is 18ga, very small. I am thinking 12 gauge would be fine.

Is a separate disconnect required on the wall or can it be direct wired to the breaker?

In theory, if the breaker was exterior, line of site, and accessible you could use just the breaker. If it's not, you need a disconnect, Ref NEC 440.13.

If the installation manual calls for a fused disconnect, you have to have it within line of sight of the unit AND have the breaker feeding it.

Tommy
 
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Jim greengo

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Here you can see the manifold gauge I picked up today. It was only $47. Should be good enough for what I need to do. I really would like a Micron gauge but they are really expensive. So I will just try to see if the pressure rises after I turn off the pump and check for leaks when I apply pressure to the system.

The pump my neighbor is letting me use was brand new in the box. I even had to put oil in it.

The big gutter will be used to hide the lines on the outside.
I'd trust leak checking with nitrogen over just relying on vacuam pump and gauges myself.
 

Jim greengo

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What a great thread. I did not know there was an affordable product that also had DIY warranty support. A few questions:

110V vs 230V: My panel box is located about 10' away from where I would mount the unit. I have a ton of 12/2 wiring. It looks to only pull 9A or so with the 110V 12k btu unit. Is there any reason to go with one or the other? I would probably need 12/3 wire for 220V, no?

12k vs 18k btu: Garage is ~480 sq ft. I plan to insulate the garage door due to afternoon sun and insulate and sheetrock or OSB the ceiling. Currently have a powerful furnace blower fan to keep the attic space cool, would be pulling in cool air through soffit vents. If it didn't keep things reasonably cool, such as 80° during 95° days, I would insulate the walls.

Vacuum pump/gauges: Can an automotive pump evacuate this unit? I can rent them from Autozone. I have A/C gauges for R-134a. Can I purge that and use on these mini splits?

Thanks for any help. Debating between sizing. 18k btu unit is only available in 230V.

What's an automotive vacuam pump? Got a picture of it?
 

LS6 Tommy

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What's an automotive vacuam pump? Got a picture of it?

They're typically small, single stage pumps or even worse, pneumatically operated little things that don't do much. Neither will pull deep enough for anything bigger than a car and I certainly wouldn't trust one on a system with refrigerant cooled motor windings.

Tommy
 

joshhouse

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Resurrecting this thread just to say “thank you”. I used this thread to make the decision on whether or not DIY’ing a pioneer mini split install was within the realm of my skills. Thankfully, your thread convinced me I could do it and I installed and connected everything. I did have an AC tech I know come out and put pressure in the line to check for leaks, pull a vacuum, and release the refrigerant, which cost me a hundred bucks. Partly thanks to this thread, I saved at LEAST $1k if not 2k. My AC guy said I stole the unit for what I paid. Now hopefully it lasts many years : )
 
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Resurrecting this thread just to say “thank you”. I used this thread to make the decision on whether or not DIY’ing a pioneer mini split install was within the realm of my skills. Thankfully, your thread convinced me I could do it and I installed and connected everything. I did have an AC tech I know come out and put pressure in the line to check for leaks, pull a vacuum, and release the refrigerant, which cost me a hundred bucks. Partly thanks to this thread, I saved at LEAST $1k if not 2k. My AC guy said I stole the unit for what I paid. Now hopefully it lasts many years : )

Same for me. I vacuumed and leak checked myself though. Worst part of the whole install was the lineset bending.
I dont regret doing it all.
 
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