Refrigerator troubleshooting question

[Ajmckay]

This is garage related - I promise. Lots of us have refrigerators there! This one happens to be in my house - though may end up in the garage soon!

So I have a refrigerator (with a top mount freezer) that's not cooling right. Specifically, the freezer isn't cooling right therefore the refrigerator isn't getting enough cold air either. I'm conflicted because I'm not really prepared to drop $1,000 on a new refrigerator but at the same time I don't want to call for service and pay $100 for someone to tell me it's going to cost almost as much to fix. I'm willing to put $200 or so into this fridge if I can get it operational again, as I would really like to get maybe 5 more years out of it (it's almost 10 yrs old). So I'm trying everything I can do to help me decide if the refrigerator is able to be fixed within my budget or if I should buy a new one.

Make: Frigidaire
Model: FRT21H7ASB4 (top freezer, bottom refrigerator)
Date of Mfg: 09/2003 (so almost 10 years old)
No ice maker or anything

Symptoms & Time line:- Freezer isn't cooling - it's currently at just over 40 degrees Fahrenheit.
- Refrigerator isn't cooling - it's currently at about 55 degrees
- Ice cream started to get mushy around 2/7/13 and the temperature has remained stable at the current temperatures for the last week or so with minimal opening/closing
- I'm not sure what the temp was before I noticed the mushy ice cream, but it seemed fine and froze ice pretty quick so I'm assuming it was in the single digits.
- Compressor and fans running continuously except for during defrost cycles - the freezer is blowing out cold air (not sure how cold though).
- Found a bad defrost thermostat on 2/9 - there was ice accumulated on the bottom of the evaporator coils and along the right side. Manually defrosted.
- At the same time verified the defrost timer was working and the defrost heater showed resistance.
- When I went to replace the defrost thermostat on 2/19 more ice had accumulated. Expected since the thermostat was bad. Manually defrosted.

Pictures:#1 - Taken on 2/9 while diagnosing the bad defrost thermostat.
#2 - Taken on 2/19 showing the new accumulation (minimal door opening)
#3 - Close up of the old defrost thermostat - no ice near it
$4 - Showing new defrost thermostat installed and also showing this black tar stuff where the small diameter tube connects to the larger tube. Note that this black tar stuff had fallen off (you can see it hanging off the ice in picture #1 so I put it back on 2/9 when I first opened up the back of the freezer.

Steps taken to this point:- Turned freezer and refrigerator temperature to coldest setting on 2/8 (the day before I opened up the back of the freezer)
- Checked door seals for leaks, none found
- Vacuumed out the condenser coils under the fridge (there was a piece of cardboard stuck under there obstructing airflow out the front and they were pretty dusty)
- Verified the condenser fan was working and the compressor is running and not getting too hot, I could touch it comfortably just a few minutes after unplugging the refrigerator.
- Replaced the defrost thermostat 2/19 and verified that the defrost timer is working as is the defrost heater (the heater is getting hot now). I tricked the thermostat into thinking it was cold using the propellant from a can of compressed air. I did this last night and this morning the freezer temp was back at between 40 and 45 degrees F. The inside of the freezer was slightly above room temp. due to the hair dryer to defrost.
- Doesn't seem to be any blockage in the air vent between the freezer and the refrigerator.

So I had a few questions for you refrigeration guys:
1) I'm concerned that while the defrost thermostat was indeed faulty, it may not be causing the loss of cooling.
2) The ice build up doesn't seem severe enough to cause such a reduction in cooling - then again a friend of mine who works on cars suggested it may be messing with the thermal expansion valve. Do refrigerators have those? Is that what is under the black tar stuff where the small diameter tubing meets the larger tubing near the evaporator coils?
3) Does the formation of the ice build up indicate anything specific such as a loss of refrigerant or a leak or blockage in a certain spot?

Thanks again, any help that can be provided is much appreciated! I'm learning a lot about refrigerators because of this!

 

[Ajmckay]

Well now the freezer temp is up to 50F...

 

[Ajmckay]

http://fixitnow.com/wp/2011/06/28/m...m-in-a-ge-refrigerator-a-hack-job-case-study/

Pretty cool website, the appliance samurai is indeed a "geyser of wisdom".

Reading the above mis-diagnosis of another refrigerator it seems as though I can safely say that a refrigerant leak or weak compressor is indeed the source of my refrigerator woes. In the pictures above my evaporator coils are only partially frosted over. My friend (who admittedly is not trained in refrigerator repair, though is familiar with the refrigeration cycle) first indicated to me that the frost pattern is strange and that such an uneven frost pattern could be indicative of a leak or at least a blockage.

The other tool I found helpful was the warm refrigerator fire drill (troubleshooting flow chart) available in a PDF here: http://fixitnow.com/wp-content/uplo...rm-Refrigerator-Troubleshooting-Flowchart.pdf

As it suggests, both of the compartments on my fridge are warm, the evaporator and condenser fans are both running normally (not slow), and the compressor is operating normally (in that it's not making funny or loud clicks, buzzes, or noises), and the temperature of the freezer is slowly climbing. Also I did the normal stuff like cleaning the condenser coils and replacing the bad defrost thermostat.

Looks like I'll be fridge shopping tonight I can't believe how expensive they are!

Any recommendations for a decent side by side with a good warranty?

 

[Jagmandave]

I shop Sear's scratch and dent store, you can sometimes find a real buy there if you have one in your town. The last fridge I got was about 1/2 price and had a small dent on the back only......

Sometimes they deliver the wrong appliance, when they do it can't be sold again as new, so it goes to the S&D store and gets marked down considerably.

Worth a look if you have one.

You might also check Home Depot and Lowes for a floor model.

I bought some $200 washer and dryer pedestals from HD for $50 cause they had a scratch on the side....I put the two scratched sides towards each other and no one's the wiser!

 

[Ajmckay]

Yet another incredible find at fixitnow.com...

How to troubleshoot warm refrigerator problems by reading the evaporator frost pattern

Based on that my fridge has the sure sign of a refrigerant leak.

Jagman, thanks a ton for the advice! I've always lived in apartments and this refrigerator came with the house so I've actually never had to purchase one before.

Our typical procedure for big ticket items though is to check all the usual suspects (major appliance stores/box stores) and choose 2 or so favorites and then check a place called ABC warehouse and usually they'll have one of the 2 favorites and they can typically be talked down to something below the price of the other store.

I'm going to look for the Sears scratch & dent store though, that sounds awesome! I'll also cruise around to a few other stores looking for some floor models in good condition.

Thanks!

 

[Ajmckay]

Yet more proof that the frost pattern is indicative of a refrigerant leak or bad compressor:

http://boards.diynetwork.com/eve/forums/a/tpc/f/8091013504/m/8683935557?r=5033985557#5033985557

http://www.flickr.com/photos/asiangold/7890714170/

http://www.appliance411.com/faq/defrostproblem.shtml

BTW, I'm just posting all this stuff in-case someone else has a similar problem. It took me a while to realize that the frost patterns on an evaporator coil can be used in diagnosing a warm refrigerator/freezer.

 

[Tim The Tool Man]

Any chance you used a scraper or screw driver to defrost the frig that first time you manually defrosted it? If you did, I would not be surprised if you accidentally punctured the refrigerant line. Always use hot water or a heat gun when defrosting frozen coils.

If you want a decent frig for that $200 I have had great luck with Craigslist. Just bought a very nice stainless frig for Around that price last month and sold my old white unit for just a little less.

 

[Scott P]

I use the forum at appliancepartspros.com and it was very helpful with my previous fridge problems. A neighbor down the street was going to throw out his fridge that quick working. I wheeled it down the street, into my garage and with help from that forum, had it running for $90 in parts. Not bad for a six year old 26.0 cu ft side by side. It's a heck of an improvement from the old dorm fridge I had out there.

 

[Ajmckay]

No screwdriver, only hair dryer for defrosting! I tried to convince the wife to check cl, but she wasn't going for it

 

[Milton Shaw]

You might want to get a can of 134a and a charging valve and put a small amount in the system and see if its a leak or a restriction. As systems only hold 4-7 oz of coolant it doesn't take a very small leak to loose 2 oz and then the system will stop cooling. Don't even think of using the whole can as that's way too much. The model number sticker should show the correct full charge amount. The frig is junk without it so you don't have much to loose by trying a little 134a.

 

[Socophreak]

Any chance you used a scraper or screw driver to defrost the frig that first time you manually defrosted it? If you did, I would not be surprised if you accidentally punctured the refrigerant line. Always use hot water or a heat gun when defrosting frozen coils.

If you want a decent frig for that $200 I have had great luck with Craigslist. Just bought a very nice stainless frig for Around that price last month and sold my old white unit for just a little less.

The buildup of frost can crack the coils as well.
2nd on craigslist or the scratch and dent store.

 

[Ajmckay]

You might want to get a can of 134a and a charging valve and put a small amount in the system and see if its a leak or a restriction. As systems only hold 4-7 oz of coolant it doesn't take a very small leak to loose 2 oz and then the system will stop cooling. Don't even think of using the whole can as that's way too much. The model number sticker should show the correct full charge amount. The frig is junk without it so you don't have much to loose by trying a little 134a.

Thanks for the suggestion. I'm not sure I trust myself working with that stuff though... I've got two kids 1 and 2 yrs old and from what I understand while the refrigerant isn't going to kill you it definitely isn't desirable to breathe in. The fact that it's heavier than air means it would likely hang around the floor where the kiddies are. Since I don't have the equipment to detect and fix the leak we're probably just going to buy another fridge, as crappy as that sounds. I don't want to risk more of the stuff leaking into the house (even though you're right that it's not very much).

I just searched CL again and I'm not sure if it's that used refrigerators are popular or what, but there aren't very many near me and they seem to cost quite a bit, at least more than I thought they would (most that are in good shape are listed for $400-500).

Maybe I can sell this one on CL for $50 Cosmetically it's clean and in good shape, I'm sure someone with the right equipment could easily fix it.

 

[Tim The Tool Man]

Maybe I can sell this one on CL for $50 Cosmetically it's clean and in good shape, I'm sure someone with the right equipment could easily fix it.

You can get $45 for it from the government through your power company and around the same if you haul it to a scrap yard.

 

[Ajmckay]

You can get $45 for it from the government through your power company and around the same if you haul it to a scrap yard.

Yeah so I called my electricity provider and they're picking it up and giving me a $40 rebate. So not too bad. I'm going to take out the shelves and brackets first though for use in my shop