Repairing/replacing poles

[Zaffer]

I have a lean-to style pole barn addition on my garage. The lean-to is enclosed and someone poured concrete between poles, though it’s not a true foundation. It seems to be used as retaining walls as it was built on a slight grade (2’ drop over 24’). The concrete is reinforced with rebar. I don’t know how old the addition is as it was old when I bought the property 9 years ago.

My question is this: when I start replacing the poles, what is the best way to do this? The concrete was poured after the poles were set and they are all different diameters. Should I dig out the old poles (one at a time), pour concrete in its place level with the top of the retaining wall and install a pole on top? Should I attempt to jut replace the pole with a 6x6 and fill the remaining space with concrete?

I don’t want to tear down the whole thing and rebuild. I’d rather keep the roof as it’s in good shape.

 

[Zaffer]

Picture for clarity. I am getting a slab poured this year and may start replacing poles as needed afterwards.

The dirt around the pole is from a groundhog last year (no longer an issue).

 

[Garcky]

Picture for clarity. I am getting a slab poured this year and may start replacing poles as needed afterwards.

The dirt around the pole is from a groundhog last year (no longer an issue).

Kinda hard to say, offhand. You're going to have to get a good idea of what's in the ground around those poles, and how deep they are. Looks like a lot of work to me to replace them. I guess I'd start digging in front of one of those poles to learn what it is, exactly, that you're going to encounter.

 

[BillK]

Why do you need to replace the poles ??

 

[Bert_]

Poles are often wider at the bottom so I don't think you will get them out with the concrete there.

The pole in your picture looks like it's in decent shape. Are the others rotten?

 

[billconner]

Hire these guys:

 

[trashyman]

Cut it off 1/2" above concrete and install 1/2" plate with tabs of some kind welded on to lag through to pole. It's not going to fall over with siding screwed to it. Lag plate into concrete.

edit: put a diagonal brace on wall if your concerned

 

[CraigStu]

I was thinking something like trashyman. But My concern is that would transfer all the load to the concrete vs however the pole was originally set. And you said ".. though it’s not a true foundation.". Can you dig a small hole down along the concrete to see how deep it goes and what it sits on? If it looks foundation-ish maybe jam a couple 4x4s on either side that sit on the concrete or one of the common metal bases.

 

[joe_padavano]

The poles in the ground are the moment-carrying member of a pole structure. Cutting them off at the surface and bolting to the concrete doesn't provide that same moment-carrying connection. You need a true moment-carrying connection, either in the form of a replacement pole base in the ground or a connection bolted to a proper concrete foundation.

Replace rotted wood foundation posts with permanent solutions

Replace deteriorating wood posts in the ground using the Perma-Column® precast column foundation system or Sturdi-Wall® Plus anchor brackets.

permacolumn.com

 

[Aingalls]

I recently fixed 5 poles in my shed. I dug down to the bottom of the poles found huge boulders under them put 3 inch channel iron on both sides bored a hole through at the top and bottom and put in 5/8 all tread and lag bolts should last longer than the shed. The worst part was my ground wayer was high had to pump it out and let it dry

 

[billconner]

The poles in the ground are the moment-carrying member of a pole structure. Cutting them off at the surface and bolting to the concrete doesn't provide that same moment-carrying connection. You need a true moment-carrying connection, either in the form of a replacement pole base in the ground or a connection bolted to a proper concrete foundation.

Replace rotted wood foundation posts with permanent solutions

Replace deteriorating wood posts in the ground using the Perma-Column® precast column foundation system or Sturdi-Wall® Plus anchor brackets.

permacolumn.com

Reading the perma column data, even those are not a strong as just the pole embedded, especially the anchor bolt style.

 

[kbs2244]

I too question the need to replace them
my grandfathers farm has 3 200+ year old barns and sheds with post construction
no concrete just dirt floors
they stand as square as the day they were built

the power co.s put in millions of unprotected poles without concrete and they last for decades

 

[Zaffer]

I need to inspect the poles a little closer but I believe at least one or two are rotting at ground level (other side of this pole’s ground level is lower due to grade). I’m also asking because another one of my outbuildings was built the same way and one of its poles is 1/3 the width due to rot. I like the concrete retaining walls, but they only go down into the ground about 3-5 inches. It seems like the poles are the anchors for the concrete, but the concrete is in good shape. I just wanted to see if it would make sense to dig out a rotted pole, replace it with concrete to level with the top of the wall (essentially creating a concrete anchor for the retaining wall portion), and then anchoring a pole on top of that with plates.

 

[Zaffer]

Thoughts?

 

[billconner]

The plan is fine but as noted, you will probably have to add lateral bracing - diagonals in the wall plane or braces panels (plywood) - because no metal bracket connecting concrete to post is as strong as an embedded post. Probably want at least 8 to 10" diameter concrete "post" into ground as far as wood posts are, with some rebar.

 

[Zaffer]

If that is what’s necessary to make it happen, then I might s as well not do it as I would need to cut out concrete for this.

 

[billconner]

I'm assuming the size? I don't thing a concrete 6x6 anchor will be strong enough. Maybe. Seems spindly for concrete. Hard to get more than one rebar in with cover.

It might be strong enough but I'm pretty sure it won't be nearly as strong as the embedded post.

Forced, I think I would put a new pt 6x6 in to 3 or 4 ft above concrete wall and splice into existing with 3x6 on either side and bolt through.

 

[Bert_]

If that is what’s necessary to make it happen, then I might s as well not do it as I would need to cut out concrete for this.

The concrete needs to be gone for pretty much any repair here.

 

[billconner]

The concrete needs to be gone for pretty much any repair here.

To do a good job, I agree. Maybe just a 1' section. Even my new 6x6 approach will require a little cutting/chipping away just to remove existing. Not a post maintenance friendly design, that concrete.

 

[Zaffer]

Here’s a better shot of the post in question. You can see that the concrete is purely for a retaining wall as it only goes a few inches into the ground. The third picture is a post next to the primary suspect.

 

[Zaffer]

I guess my question here would be could I possibly treat the post and fill it with concrete? I know it’s not necessarily the correct solution, but could it work? REALLY don’t want to have to destroy the concrete to fix if I can avoid it.

 

[RPH]

I guess my question here would be could I possibly treat the post and fill it with concrete? I know it’s not necessarily the correct solution, but could it work? REALLY don’t want to have to destroy the concrete to fix if I can avoid it.

That would hide the problem and add no strength. Dry cut blade on skill saw. Straight cut to keep a straight line on the edges. Dig out the old concrete, you might find more large stones in it after the first layer. Secure building and replace the post.

 

[Zaffer]

I figured that’d be the case, but thought I’d ask. The blade would not be deep enough to cut through the concrete as it’s about 6-7 inches thick.

 

[Monza Harry]

I figured that’d be the case, but thought I’d ask. The blade would not be deep enough to cut through the concrete as it’s about 6-7 inches thick.

A 14" diamond blade [can be rented, priced according to wear] on a gas saw will if you cut from both sides. Cleanup will likely be required,but can be minimized with planning. I would drill through with a small cement drill [1/4" - 5/16"?] To mark a start stop point, check that the drill is going in nice and square for best results. Then form and pour after repair. Harry