Replacing oil boiler with gas boiler

[branimal]

I’m replacing an old oil steam boiler with a gas boiler. The oil boiler cracked (water spewing out the side) last winter after it was winterized by a boiler technician. Fortunately insurance is covering part of the damage.

I’ve gotten three quotes for the job : 9,000, 20,000, 25,000. All are inclusive of material and permits.

The property is a 3 family, 3 floors + basement and each floor is about 1100 sq ft.

I don’t know much about gas boilers …. and from what I’ve read this is not a DIY project at all, so i’m hiring pros.

All 3 quotes are for burnham boilers (independence). IN6 and the IN7. The btu range is - as low as 175K and as high as 210K.

How do I know whats right for the space and the existing steam system I have in place?

The 9K contractor (175K BTU) said installing a stainless steel chimney liner may not be necessary. They are going to clean the chimney I’ve read that dangerous gases can seep into the apartments if the chimney isn’t properly lined.

The 20K contractor hasn’t stated replacing the chimney liner. I’m inquiring further.

The 25K contractor is installing a chimney liner (6k included in 25k). He’s quoting the permit at 5K (included in quote).

Any advise on the process will be greatly appreciated.

I can include the line items of each quote if that helps.




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[yeldogt]

If you are keeping the steam --make sure you get someone who knows about steam and is not just guessing and matching. With lower flame temps and more flue moisture when burning NG -- lining the chimney is typically required. Burning NG gets you CO2 and H20.

Oil is a very hot flame and flue gas.

Boiler size with steam is a different factor .. not a typical load calculation. In NYC there should be enough people who know about steam.

 

[brewchief]

A gas boiler shouldn't require a stainless chimney liner, an aluminum liner is fine for gas. 6k to install a chimney liner sounds very high unless chimney access is very limited and a crane and man basket is required.

Proper steam piping is time consuming but worth it, not many can do it properly any more, at least around here.

The Wall at heatinghelp.com had some very good steam guys hanging around the last time I checked, it would be well worth your time to check it out.

Steam is becoming a lost art, not many kids these days want to spend their days pulling on 48" pipe wrenches.

5k for a permit? sounds way high, I could see 500$ in some areas but not 5K, I would make a call to the local building dept and find out what it really is, I can see a company adding a few bucks to the permit costs to cover time filling it out and maybe taking it to the building dept in person but a giant red flag popped up at 5k.

 

[danski0224]

I’m replacing an old oil steam boiler with a gas boiler. The oil boiler cracked (water spewing out the side) last winter after it was winterized by a boiler technician. Fortunately insurance is covering part of the damage.

I’ve gotten three quotes for the job : 9,000, 20,000, 25,000. All are inclusive of material and permits.

The property is a 3 family, 3 floors + basement and each floor is about 1100 sq ft.

I don’t know much about gas boilers …. and from what I’ve read this is not a DIY project at all, so i’m hiring pros.

All 3 quotes are for burnham boilers (independence). IN6 and the IN7. The btu range is - as low as 175K and as high as 210K.

How do I know whats right for the space and the existing steam system I have in place?

The 9K contractor (175K BTU) said installing a stainless steel chimney liner may not be necessary. They are going to clean the chimney I’ve read that dangerous gases can seep into the apartments if the chimney isn’t properly lined.

The 20K contractor hasn’t stated replacing the chimney liner. I’m inquiring further.

The 25K contractor is installing a chimney liner (6k included in 25k). He’s quoting the permit at 5K (included in quote).

Any advise on the process will be greatly appreciated.

I can include the line items of each quote if that helps.




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Is the currently installed boiler original, or has it been replaced already?

The replacement boiler needs to be sized to meet the installed radiation, not the building load (this is true for hydronic or steam). Each radiator needs to be measured and added up. There are books with pictures of the radiator designs used over the years with BTU ratings per section.

If the building has been improved with respect to insulation and infiltration, then the radiation needs to be modified to fit the building, and then the boiler sized to meet the requirements of the new radiators. This is not a job for someone that doesn't know what they are doing- especially for steam.

If the boiler is not sized properly, it will live a short life and be grossly inefficient.

If you want to read up on proper piping and installation, look up books by Dan Holohan. Even if your installation is original, there are no assurances that it was done properly (although the chances are better if it is an unmolested installation).

As far as the chimney liner goes, no one will certify an existing chimney. At least that is what I have found in my research. It is virtually impossible to completely inspect a chimney visually, this is why liners are universally recommended. Gases will not enter the living space unless there are major flaws in the masonry, and spotting these from the inside can be tricky. I have seen plenty of old chimneys that are just brick on the inside- no clay tile liner, back when coal was the fuel of choice. Sometimes, the clay tile that is visible on the outside on top only goes down 10 feet or so.

Assuming the new boiler will be intermittent ignition, natural draft, it needs a properly installed barometric damper to control the chimney draft and to keep the flue gas temperature up. If the interior is found to be sound, then the barometric damper may also eliminate the need for a chimney liner.

I had one service call where the boiler was venting to the indoors, because the flue opening was blocked by spalled brick from the chimney interior. Old home, exterior chimney, no barometric damper resulted in significant chimney damage over time. They went with the cheap guys that said I was full of it.

I would choose an induced draft boiler over lining an existing chimney. This eliminates many issues, including the risks encountered while installing the liner. The added cost of an induced draft boiler and the special stainless steel vent piping should be much less than the $6k quoted for a chimney liner- if there is someplace to run a new exhaust.

As far as permit costs go, you can call city hall and ask for yourself or look at your city website.

 

[branimal]

Spoke with some more boiler contractors.

The most knowledgeable contractor (measured each radiator to come up with EDR number) recommended a Williamson boiler. (Its a Weil-McClain with a different shell). Every other contractor recommended a Burnham.

The one issue I have with this contractor is he does not want to do the job with a permit. Most likely he doesn’t have a license to install boilers. He said National Grid (my gas provider) would not care if my gas bill jumped from $75 (water heater & stove) to $250 (water heater, stove, boiler). For ConEd that’s an automatic red flag. They will shut down the meter and report it to NYC Department of Buildings (NYCDOB). That would be a **** storm. This is not a risk I am willing to take. If for any reason National Grid changed their policies, I’d be up sh*t’s creek.

I’ve got quotes from two licensed contractors that are within spitting distance of one another. Higher quotes, but they are filing permits.

I have 3-4 missing radiators in the building. I’m going to have the plumber replace them. Also is it worth replacing the air valves and control valves on each existing radiator?

What boiler bells and whistles should I look into?

Danski,

The boiler is very old…. but it may not be the original b/c there was a rusted out boiler sitting in the backyard. See pic below.

I’ll ask the contractor about barometric dampers and induced draft boilers.

Great advice on using the wall at heatinghelp.

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[yeldogt]

The issue you have in the steam .... Years and years ago ...everybody made steam boilers. It's been many years since this is the case -- had to do my research 20 years ago when I was working on my old stone house on Philadelphia's main line. With a typical hydronic radiator system -- with water circulating around .. the size of the radiator, while important ..is not as critical as when doing steam.

What occurs on the residential side is you are converting a hydronic boiler to steam -- that's the first issue. It's a question finding what is the best currently in your size. The other item is the radiators -- with steam .... you have to have enough capacity in the boiler to drive the steam to the radiator and fill it. If improvements -- better windows and insulation - drop the heat load ... you can't drop the boiler capacity to match the new load ... because you will not have enough steam to drive the radiators. The vent on each radiator -- is the control.

Steam systems are so simple -- installing them correctly required real skill .... real skill. I was lucky when I did my house as I was able to get a guy that really knew his stuff -- his grandfather had worked on my house. I was able to take the old converted coal steam boiler and replace it with two smaller gas steam boilers and split the system.

 

[Jackfre]

By code the chimney must be cleaned first and then lined. Period! I would suggest that you call John Pilger, of Chief Chimney Services, out of Smithtown. I worked on the NFPA 31 committee with him. If he doesn't cover your area he will know someone who does.
Why do you want to keep the system set up as steam. If you convert it to hot water you will have FAR more options in equipment choice. As this is a three story rental why not sub-meter the units and install mini-splits for each apt. They are only 1100 sq ft. Also, I have done hundreds of these types of conversions with Rinnai Energysavers. Simple install, net to the space and sub-metered. I am a trained steam guy and it is the last thing I would put in today.

 

[yeldogt]

By code the chimney must be cleaned first and then lined. Period! I would suggest that you call John Pilger, of Chief Chimney Services, out of Smithtown. I worked on the NFPA 31 committee with him. If he doesn't cover your area he will know someone who does.
Why do you want to keep the system set up as steam. If you convert it to hot water you will have FAR more options in equipment choice. As this is a three story rental why not sub-meter the units and install mini-splits for each apt. They are only 1100 sq ft. Also, I have done hundreds of these types of conversions with Rinnai Energysavers. Simple install, net to the space and sub-metered. I am a trained steam guy and it is the last thing I would put in today.

My guess is he does not want to spend the money ... and ....parts of the house are occupied.

It's great heat -- the downside is the standby losses making the steam. My co-op in NYC is steam ... but that's from the loop

 

[dogdog]

Not sure how other places works, steam system is still the most reliable system in NYC area... not the best or most efficient... and these are low pressure steams systems for most residential setups(max 15PSI)... not that hard to maintain at all... sometimes it is a lot easier than a hyrdonic system... Changing it would have required OP to knock walls and change out all piping... ...or at minimum running a return line on each zone, a lot of added cost without much saving, $$$ better off put toward insulation at the renovations... ... All OP have to do is balance the system.. means re-do all those steam valves at the radiator. the furthest gets a #c or #6 valve, the closest to the pipe gets a #4... and the rest gets a #5... I think that is the logic... It's not that bad as it seems... Steam system is still popular in NYC older buildings... The OP have a max 15 PSI, system, most likely running 5... with a differential of 2 or 3 for cut in/cut out... Seriously only complains I have is the rust on these newer boilers.... it gets bad.. almost every year I have take all the sensors out and wipe the sludge off, (easy to do).... it clogs it... but it is easy to maintain... and of cause the cursed thermocouple....

FWIW a lot of brand still makes steam boilers the last I check, not as popular but they still do manufacture them... Burham, peerless, Weils McCain etc.... limit choice yes.... Burham and Weils McClain is the most popular here for residential setup... controls, they are the same third party, Honeywell etc... It's all analog...

As far as OP $6500 was what I paid for the IN8 (245K system, OP have 165K), all inclusive, new gas dedicated meter, new boiler, new water heater, permit, oil tank removal.... New Piping from the gas meter, but that was 10 years ago, exactly 10 years in two weeks... The new meter incidentally red-flags me with National Grid, cause some one F-up on their end, looking at the data of my old meter , now I have 0 usage as oppose to a lot... some egg head Holmes, think the old meter is now broken without thinking o! maybe this address have installed and approved by them a new dedicated meter... LOL yea I rant about both. still gets "We are going to kill your whole family, if we don't see usage on your old meter , Got the needs inspection mails from them every 6 months.. still gets them after 10 years later.

 

[dogdog]

BTW if you have the old cast iron radiators from the 1900 era ...and they are still in good condition, I would suggest you do a DIY project and restore them, I used electrolysis, super wash soda, and a big cement mixing tub $12 from HD to soak 1/2 then flip the other 1/2... came out great... and with 6 radiators, about a shopping bag full of rust/paint.. and 1 week of time... consider each radiator cost about $100-ish now.. and they are smaller...not as great heat retention... I have pics in one of the electrolysis threads...

Besides they look better with the older radiators... more rustic..

 

[yeldogt]

Dan Holohan has a 1 hour video on steam heat -- goes through the different types and layouts.

 

[sixty4]

Dan Holohan has a 1 hour video on steam heat -- goes through the different types and layouts.

Dan used to give excellent seminars, Lost art of Steam heat was great, I own several books he put out. Can't tell you how many times he made the light bulb go off in my head.

 

[danski0224]

Spoke with some more boiler contractors.

The most knowledgeable contractor (measured each radiator to come up with EDR number) recommended a Williamson boiler. (Its a Weil-McClain with a different shell). Every other contractor recommended a Burnham.

The one issue I have with this contractor is he does not want to do the job with a permit. Most likely he doesn’t have a license to install boilers. He said National Grid (my gas provider) would not care if my gas bill jumped from $75 (water heater & stove) to $250 (water heater, stove, boiler). For ConEd that’s an automatic red flag. They will shut down the meter and report it to NYC Department of Buildings (NYCDOB). That would be a **** storm. This is not a risk I am willing to take. If for any reason National Grid changed their policies, I’d be up sh*t’s creek.

I’ve got quotes from two licensed contractors that are within spitting distance of one another. Higher quotes, but they are filing permits.

I have 3-4 missing radiators in the building. I’m going to have the plumber replace them. Also is it worth replacing the air valves and control valves on each existing radiator?

What boiler bells and whistles should I look into?

Danski,

The boiler is very old…. but it may not be the original b/c there was a rusted out boiler sitting in the backyard. See pic below.

I’ll ask the contractor about barometric dampers and induced draft boilers.

Great advice on using the wall at heatinghelp.

Interesting how your utility has such control over the situation. It would be interesting to know why this is.

In some ways, it stops the hacks that can't get a license, but there are other problems too- like taking your preferred contractor choice out of the loop. And the system probably favors connected contractors with deep pockets that may or may not do a better job.

My electrical utility has a rebate program that requires the contractor to become a registered Trade Ally, which involves paperwork and a fee to the Illinois Commerce Commission. However, there is NOTHING in place that establishes that the equipment is actually installed properly.

I wouldn't replace radiators that have been removed, unless the heating load says that they are required. It would be best to perform a heat load on the building and then check those results against the EDR of what you have now. Hopefully, those radiators have been removed properly so the rest of the system continues to function normally.

I also wouldn't "just replace" vents and controls until the system is operational- unless it is known that the components are bad now.

You can Google "steam boiler" yourself and come up with other brands. I know that Peerless makes some. One issue will be getting your contractor to install a "foreign" piece of equipment. Another could be whether or not your building is classified as residential or commercial, and/or whether or not there are additional local code requirements that narrow equipment selection.

 

[yeldogt]

Dan used to give excellent seminars, Lost art of Steam heat was great, I own several books he put out. Can't tell you how many times he made the light bulb go off in my head.

I went to a few of his seminars as well --- lots of big houses were still using coal into the 90's outside of Philadelphia ...coal and steam heat are perfect together. Those converted from coal in the early years typically had to go oil for the hotter flame ... I went with twin gas boilers ... my neighbor used three!

The systems used auto feeders.

Coal is still around and used in PA -- lots of high quality coal in PA.

 

[truckman5000]

Spoke with some more boiler contractors.

The most knowledgeable contractor (measured each radiator to come up with EDR number) recommended a Williamson boiler. (Its a Weil-McClain with a different shell). Every other contractor recommended a Burnham.

The one issue I have with this contractor is he does not want to do the job with a permit. Most likely he doesn’t have a license to install boilers. He said National Grid (my gas provider) would not care if my gas bill jumped from $75 (water heater & stove) to $250 (water heater, stove, boiler). For ConEd that’s an automatic red flag. They will shut down the meter and report it to NYC Department of Buildings (NYCDOB). That would be a **** storm. This is not a risk I am willing to take. If for any reason National Grid changed their policies, I’d be up sh*t’s creek.

I’ve got quotes from two licensed contractors that are within spitting distance of one another. Higher quotes, but they are filing permits.

I have 3-4 missing radiators in the building. I’m going to have the plumber replace them. Also is it worth replacing the air valves and control valves on each existing radiator?

What boiler bells and whistles should I look into?

Danski,

The boiler is very old…. but it may not be the original b/c there was a rusted out boiler sitting in the backyard. See pic below.

I’ll ask the contractor about barometric dampers and induced draft boilers.

Great advice on using the wall at heatinghelp.

Sent from my iPhone using Tapatalk

This contractor is 100%
Around here the permits on something your doing and licence requirements is the biggest deal. Hes probably trying to save you some coin.
Chimney, can you do a direct vent through the side wall/ field control kit?


edit. so yah 2- guys were 20,000 and the 9kish wasnt doing a permit...The job can be done for 9k/ without all the permits

 

[dogdog]

This contractor is 100%
Around here the permits on something your doing and licence requirements is the biggest deal. Hes probably trying to save you some coin.
Chimney, can you do a direct vent through the side wall/ field control kit?


edit. so yah 2- guys were 20,000 and the 9kish wasnt doing a permit...The job can be done for 9k/ without all the permits

Huh ?

I’ve gotten three quotes for the job : 9,000, 20,000, 25,000. All are inclusive of material and permits.

 

[brewchief]

I wouldn't do it without a permit.

What is your recourse if the guy has no real clue what he's doing and burns down or blows up the whole house?

What's the cost for a permit? We pay around 125$ with some areas slightly higher and some lower.

Is the guy not licensed to install boilers? Does that mean not insured as well?

 

[dogdog]

The whole process for filing a correct permit that don't get you flagged for the wrong reasons is all convoluted with the NYC government departments... Literally anything you do will be used against you..It is partly due to abuse, and partly due to some politic of justifying existence and budgets. There are people who earns a great living navigating the departments and filing paper works... I would just let them handle it... the fees are not that much... I think the problem is, anyone can file a permit, only certain licensed professionals with the City can close them.. and they don't issue a lot of them licenses out... You just can't take the test and apply...

Not sure what exactly is covered.... $9k-ish is fair price all inclusive for the boiler, except the chimney... 20K, not sure what those people are smoking.

Chimney liner last time I looked at for 35' of 10" diameter stainless liner is about $1200-ish plus the elbows and Tees and what nots.. material cost, and it was dropping , install price is not that much

 

[branimal]

Following up on the replacement of oil boiler with gas boiler. Found a plumber with great ratings on google for heating systems. He’s replacing the boiler KIN-7 steam boiler. Obtaining all the permits, removing the oil boiler & 275 Gallon oil tank. Installing a new header, equalizer, hartford loop, automatic water feeder, low water cutoff, new thermostat, etc. all inclusive.

I’m getting a new meter for the gas boiler and the water heater.

Making the system ready for split system fittings - in case i want to heat the basement.

As far as the chimney liner is concerned… I’ve heard that NYC may require me to have a stainless steel liner, or may not. It depends on the inspector. The clay lining in my chimney is in decent shape. If the inspector deems a liner required I will have to file some form with the city which will cost $$$$. If the liner is in place, I can always say the previous owner had it installed.

I went ahead and had a liner installed. The contractor connected it to the water heater (properly pitched), left a new connection for gas boiler and installed a cleanout. I needed a ovalized duct b/c my boiler requires a 7” diameter, but the flue is 6 1/5/16 x 11.

It seemed like a possible DIY job, but time is of the essence here with temps dropping.

Boiler install : $11,000
Liner install : $2,700

Thanks for the help guys.

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[dogdog]

make sure you go to the DOB site and check your permit to make sure it is closed, before you paid the final payment... unless you trusted that plumber...

https://www1.nyc.gov/site/buildings/index.page

 

[Boilerhouse]

I think you were wise to put in the liner now, even if it wasn't required. Inspectors change their minds and next thing you know- they insist on it. My system was approved for years, then one day, I too was required to put a s.s. liner in a clay lined chimney. The liner was $700, I erected a bunch of scaffolding, and me and a friend wrestled it into place. The inspector was happy with the install.
I think you got a decent price on yours, and you have peace of mind.

 

[branimal]

Boiler has been replaced with the Burnham KIN7.

The building is nice and toasty. In fact the tenant is complaining it too hot in his bedroom after he's shut off radiators near his bedroom.

I'm going to drop the temperature from 70 to 68.

Thanks for the advice guys.

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