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Replacing tool handles Arbor Press/Large Vise

motorcitykid

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Hello Good People,
I have a few handles I’d like to swap out, Press/Vise/Drill Press. I’m wondering for the ends would I be better served with a lever or ball knob and would it be a stronger connection with the ball knob being male or female?IMG_5681.jpeg
This little handle won’t cut it. And figured while I’m at it I might as well clean them all up.
I have some 4140 rod, not sure what the best way to go would be but am open to any suggestions.
Thanks
 
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Oregon rock crusher

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I usually use drillable steel balls for ends on vise handles. You can get packages of several of whatever size you want on Amazon or ebay for cheap. I have used heavy wall tubing as well pressed on the ends of the handle. I have been turning the ends of the shaft down a bit and drilling the balls after putting a flat spot on them with a belt sander. Usually to a .005 or so interference fit on the shaft. I use heat to expand the balls or tubing for the shaft. They ends don't come off without heating them again. You can also retain the balls with liquid steel if you get a bit undersize on the shaft when using a grinder instead of a lathe to reduce the shaft ends. Ed.
 

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beltfeed

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Purchase a ball with a female thread in it. Get some tool steel round stock (like A-2) from McMaster-carr. Thread the ends of the shaft and install the ball with a little loctite. You can have the steel shaft heat treated after you thread it for added strength.



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motorcitykid

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IMG_5681.jpeg
This is the handle it came with, my brother in law turned me a a solid handle from his stock.
So I’ll have a good amount of leverage, I like the idea of heating one and cooling the other I never thought of that. I have been looking for a day or so at different types of knobs, Ball, lever, threaded (internal/external), fixed.
Should I heat treat it?
Thanks for the insight gentleman. 🙏
 

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beltfeed

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Heat treating it after machine as long as you know the material type. A2, O1, 400 series SS, etc, they all require a different heat treat process and annealing process. A2 is my go-to material for a lot of things.
 

RoninB4

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Should I heat treat it?
-Not much point in heat treating a handle unless you just like the blued color. Genuine heat treating for hardness will also make it more difficult for any machining in the future. 4140 from solid should be plenty strong enough as is for a small press of that size. Same for a handle of a drill press. Resist the urge to use a cheater pipe on the handle as it may exceed what the frame can handle. If you do want the coloration (it looks nice) just polish in the lathe to suit, thoroughly clean the piece, heat in the oven to about 400 degrees, and plunge into oil while still hot. You can get any shade of coloration from yellow to blue per the temperature used.
 
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motorcitykid

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At this point it’s more about getting the most from this little press while not abusing it. I used it a little this afternoon making some hinges and plan to make some tooling for it tomorrow to bend sheet metal. All light duty stuff.
I just want to take advantage of all of its limited capabilities.
 

metalmagpie

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I make handle ends differently. I buy a robust round bar for the handle and turn a shoulder on each end, in about half an inch or so. Then I cut two more short pieces of round stock thicker than the handle. I bore those to the same diameter as the shoulder. Then I slip one onto the handle bar and stand it up in a vise and plug weld the "knob" to the handle bar. Then slip the handle bar into the machine, arrange it to a vertical position. Again, plug weld the knob to the handle bar. The knobs have to be longer than the shoulder. You can sand the dome off the plug welds if you like. I just hit them a few times with a ball peen hammer and they look good. That's how I made the new handle for this old Record vise. - metalmagpie

viseOnBase.jpg
 

RoninB4

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At this point it’s more about getting the most from this little press while not abusing it. I used it a little this afternoon making some hinges and plan to make some tooling for it tomorrow to bend sheet metal. All light duty stuff.
I just want to take advantage of all of its limited capabilities.
-You have the right attitude and approach. You're only limited by your imagination and the size of the press itself. It would even be possible to fabricate types of light duty stamping dies for something repetitive in numbers greater than 50 pieces or just want them all consistent. I was a tool and die maker for 35 years if you ever want advice.

On another note: I went to high school for 2-1/2 years in Trenton, still have a buddy that lives there.
 
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motorcitykid

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-You have the right attitude and approach. You're only limited by your imagination and the size of the press itself. It would even be possible to fabricate types of light duty stamping dies for something repetitive in numbers greater than 50 pieces or just want them all consistent. I was a tool and die maker for 35 years if you ever want advice.

On another note: I went to high school for 2-1/2 years in Trenton, still have a buddy that lives there.
That’s the goal. I grew up in Wyandotte and lived on Grosse Ile for a couple decades then recently moved to Gibraltar. Small world. One of my best friends growing up was an old tool and die maker.
I am thinking I’ll start by making a ram attachment that will make it easier to attach several different types of jigs. I have an idea for a pulley system to bend some copper pipe for my air lines and a few different types of bending jigs for sheet metal and light bar stock.
I’m new to welding, but I have a dual purpose Firepower FP130 Mig/flux core welder.
First thing is a piece of bar stock that fills the ram. My brother in law is a machinist at Ford and he’s making my handle because I don’t have a lathe yet and the stick I have is too big. I appreciate the offer and I’d be very thankful for any insight you could share.
 
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motorcitykid

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I make handle ends differently. I buy a robust round bar for the handle and turn a shoulder on each end, in about half an inch or so. Then I cut two more short pieces of round stock thicker than the handle. I bore those to the same diameter as the shoulder. Then I slip one onto the handle bar and stand it up in a vise and plug weld the "knob" to the handle bar. Then slip the handle bar into the machine, arrange it to a vertical position. Again, plug weld the knob to the handle bar. The knobs have to be longer than the shoulder. You can sand the dome off the plug welds if you like. I just hit them a few times with a ball peen hammer and they look good. That's how I made the new handle for this old Record vise. - metalmagpie

viseOnBase.jpg
That’s a beautiful setup and great work on the handle!
IMG_2415.jpeg

I plan to make a stand for this one at some point but for now it lives on my bench. Luckily my bench is wildly overbuilt, I love the idea of hitch receivers welded to various mounts but don’t love the idea of picking up this 135 pound vise with an extra mount welded to it. 😂
I need some practice welding, I saw some steel ball knobs that looked awesome and went to the sellers site and found some amazing different offerings of all types. Kipp has an office nearby and they make some knobs that look like they’d be really useful in this application.
I’m glad I asked here, it’s always appreciated to see how the more experienced guys are getting the job done.
 

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RoninB4

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That’s the goal. I grew up in Wyandotte and lived on Grosse Ile for a couple decades then recently moved to Gibraltar.
-My old stomping grounds in the early 70's. Ted Nugent once played a free concert in Wyandotte for the opening of a "head shop" on Jefferson St. IIRC (hazy memories from back then.....)
Small world.
-And getting smaller all the time.
One of my best friends growing up was an old tool and die maker.
-A somewhat crusty old sort as is customary for the breed?
I am thinking I’ll start by making a ram attachment that will make it easier to attach several different types of jigs.
-A good start. Make some dimensional drawings so you have a reference for any future attachments. It's a bit of extra work but it will pay off as you go forward. Would be a perfect candidate for CAD modeling/blueprinting if you have a program, all dimensions are on a model file for ready reference, paper drawings take up a lot of room and get ruined over time, just a suggestion.
I have an idea for a pulley system to bend some copper pipe for my air lines and a few different types of bending jigs for sheet metal and light bar stock.
-Very doable and immediately useful for the garage/shop. Bending metal requires over-bending due to "spring-back" read up on it.
I’m new to welding, but I have a dual purpose Firepower FP130 Mig/flux core welder.
-I used to do all sorts of welding/brazing. Still have the welder for stick, TiG, and MiG, but am so out of practice it's embarrassing.
First thing is a piece of bar stock that fills the ram.
-Sounds like an adjustable gib is in order like machinery uses. You might even consider an easily machinable material like UHMW, Delrin, or brass. UHMW and Delrin are often used for sliding surfaces because of lower surface friction and wear isn't an issue for your application. Plastics should be cheaper than metal too.
My brother in law is a machinist at Ford
-Would that be the Woodhaven Stamping Plant? I used to live nearby and could hear the presses cycling on some nights.
and he’s making my handle because I don’t have a lathe yet and the stick I have is too big.
-Your brother can probably offer a lot of guidance/advice based upon his experience, proximity to you, and his access to machines you don't have.
I appreciate the offer and I’d be very thankful for any insight you could share.
-I was taught a lot by grumpy old men that always told me to pass what I learned to the next generation. Now that I am Grumpy Old Man I feel compelled to honor them by sharing what I can with those that want to know. Ask me whatever you want, correct answers may be optional ;-). I've still got machinery, tooling, lots of reference books, and a seat of SolidWorks at home. I'm retired now so I have more time to help others.
 
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motorcitykid

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CAD and Delrin are fantastic idea's, I didn't think of. I have a couple CAD programs, don't use them enough to be fluent. Most of my stuff goes on a white board then gone when done, should probably have files for each machine. My machines are all vintage and with that they have things that should be shareable with the next user. My Brother is out in Romeo, he fixes the machines and he lets me use all his old books to pick up tips and tricks. Woodhaven Stamping now has a Lowes in front of it, the whole area is different.
I've got some awesome stories about the old tool and die guy. My mom was a care taker of his wife when she fought cancer she passed and he had a stroke, ended up moving in with us. I was 12-13 at the time and he was like an adopted Grandpa, when my mom would leave he'd have me drive him around, He smoked his first joint with me when I was 15. We had a lot of fun... An adjustable Gib, I had to google it but that looks ideal for different size punches and stuff.
 
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RoninB4

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-A gib is to take up the room between two slide surfaces, always from softer material so all the wear is on the softer (less expensive) surfaces. An adjustable gib has a couple (or more) set screws that push the gib further into the sliding component to compensate for the wear. A lathe has one easily seen on the compound slide, Bridgeport mills have them on the X and Y axis but are not as easily seen. For your press a couple of 10-32 screws to bear on the backside of the plate should do just fine.

-I keep CAD files of almost everything I do whether an HVAC installation, custom widget, or house remodeling. I created my house in detail and can create a BOM of all the materials needed so just ONE trip for building supplies. It was extra work to create the models/assemblies but I have instant access to see what a new porch/deck will look like, shop layout for ergonomics. or estimating weights and center of gravity in projects. I don't know what you do for a living but after 35 years in a rapidly shrinking trade I learned CAD to help with employment. It boosted me out of the shop and into engineering, it also boosted my income a lot and I spent the rest of my career being cleaner at the end of the day, paid better, and opened doors beyond what a blue collar position is "allowed" to do. Just a suggestion.

-A Lowes in front of the stamping plant? Woodhaven was mostly just undeveloped land back then.....guess things have changed. Is Mclouth Steel and the Dana Corporation way East of Woodhaven still there? I haven't been to the area since 1990.

-Your family had big hearts taking in Grandpa like that and are to be commended for your humanity and compassion for aging diemakers because not all of us are housebroken or appropriate around polite society. Glad you enjoyed him, he probably enjoyed you too.
 
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motorcitykid

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IMG_5744.jpegI will have to figure out a design for a Gib, that’s a fantastic idea.
I took a CAD class in college 20 years ago, but haven’t touched it much since. I’ve been in Marketing/Sales for 19 years. But, I’d love to have my house all laid out in CAD especially for modifications. I’ve done some 3D rendering and animation more recently, I bet the new CAD software is excellent.
My stepdad was at the Stamping plant for a while, the whole front lawn was leased out to businesses. The big Mclouth plant on Jefferson was torn down a few years ago and sold to the family that owns the Ambassador bridge with plans for a shipping port, but not much has looked to change other than being leveled. So weird to see.
I’m not remembering Dana, lots has changed, and a lot hasn’t.
Now to clean my bench..😂
 

RoninB4

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I will have to figure out a design for a Gib, that’s a fantastic idea.
-Well......shucks. I've just had a look at your press and didn't realize that it's a round ram, unlike almost all of the manual ones I've seen for the last few decades (square ram). Yours has undeniable vintage appeal but will be more complex/difficult to create a gib for it. I understand that there's what you consider excessive movement between the ram and the housing. With a square ram it's a simple matter of dropping in an adjustable plate to reduce/remove excess play. Many of the square ram presses even have this feature built-in already. The way I see it, now that I looked, your options seem to be:
1) Buy another press with a square ram. A brand new 2 ton model is about $200 so a used one in good condition should be under $100
2) All your tooling will need to be guided with the tooling/die locating the work. Everything is contained in the die so it doesn't matter if the ram moves around or not. Guided tooling will be more complex and more expensive (maybe not very much) but you just flop the tooling in the press and you're ready to go. You wouldn't have to do anything to your existing press.
3) Create a gib for the press you have. That will be more involved/expensive with limited benefit. The gib for a round ram may contain movement in the X and Y plane but there's still rotation of the ram to consider. Either of the above two options would address movement in all three degrees of freedom.

-A lot really depends upon just what you intend to do. I know that's not an easy question to answer but tooling/dies really depend upon the particulars. Size of the press largely dictates what is possible (tonnage limits) for a given material type, thickness, and whether piercing/bending. Sometimes the intended part can't be created in just one press stroke and requires multiple "hits" to create a shape/feature. I say all this not to discourage you but rather to inform you so time/money is not wasted. Depending upon what you want to do there may be no need to alter anything at all. For example; For a simple bending operation (bent bracket) it probably wouldn't matter if the ram moved around as the tooling would tend to center/align itself with each successive stroke of the ram gradually bottoming out the stoke instead of one continuous stroke. For one or two pieces I want to make I'll just arrange the work in the vise and use a drift & hammer to carefully bend the material over a mandrel to shape. There's a lot that can be done with simple hand tools, that's what they did for centuries until the industrial revolution mechanized everything.
I took a CAD class in college 20 years ago, but haven’t touched it much since. I’ve been in Marketing/Sales for 19 years.
-There's probably not a lot of applications, other than rendering for a visual aid, at your job. It's hard to justify the time needed to mount the learning curve for proficiency when there isn't any immediate benefit to your paycheck. What CAD programs do you have?
But, I’d love to have my house all laid out in CAD especially for modifications. I’ve done some 3D rendering and animation more recently, I bet the new CAD software is excellent.
-I resisted using computers at home and only used them on the job for CNC controls until around 1999 when I had to change with a changing industry. I took a few AutoCad (2D) classes and wasn't particularly impressed, it was a nice electronic pencil. Dr. Ward encouraged us to explore 3D programs. I took a class (Pro-E) and the hook was set when I realized the capability of CAD as a design tool. The capability of the CAD and CAM programs is nothing short of incredible for an Olde Phart like me that had to program everything long hand at the machine control (MDI) or the even older NC tape feeder machines. Would CAD help you? Maybe with rendering/animation but only you can answer that question. Would it help you at home? Quite a bit but the time spent may not be worth the effort. Did/does it help me? Enormously but that's how I earned a living for the last 17 years and I'm a bit obsessive/compulsive so it fed me and my disease.
My stepdad was at the Stamping plant for a while, the whole front lawn was leased out to businesses. The big Mclouth plant on Jefferson was torn down a few years ago and sold to the family that owns the Ambassador bridge with plans for a shipping port, but not much has looked to change other than being leveled. So weird to see.
-Gee I sure hope Zug Island hasn't lost the distinct charm it exuded in the 70's.
I’m not remembering Dana, lots has changed, and a lot hasn’t.
-Probably disappeared if you haven't seen the building from King & Fort St. They used to have a large lot outside the building where they stored cast iron engine blocks exposed to the weather for "seasoning". Every now and then they come get one and take it back inside for machining. There was also a story that they stamped out helmets for the army during the Vietnam war. Dana did a lot of things back then besides gearboxes and transmissions. A lot probably has changed since I lived there.
Now to clean my bench..😂
“If a cluttered desk is a sign of a cluttered mind, of what, then, is an empty desk a sign? – Albert Einstein

-While working under contract for Denso Automotive (Nippon Denso) that was staffed by Japanese management I was cited for having 3 paperclips out of place on my desk.....

-I would advise making a provision for clamping/mounting your press firmly to your work bench. The leverage required for using the press will have it tipping over quite easily. Just a suggestion.
 
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motorcitykid

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My initial thought was to make a quick release or chuck to allow for quick changes of tooling. However, I do have a good amount of steel that could be easily welded together to allow for more secure pressing.

Yes, this press is old. Probably over 100, I’d guess the round ram idea came from Greenerd. But also that they have a design identical to this for a straightening press with a round ram and wheel with a ratcheting compound lever mechanism mounted on top. The throat is very shallow, while the cast iron on the back is overbuilt. I believe this may have been the same casting for the other press adapted to something more universal.

Dana changed hands, I can’t recall what’s in there now. I worked on Zug island as a Laborer back in the early 2000’s, it will never be repurposed into luxury condos.

I have the tail bolted to an existing hole in my benchtop, which is temporary but sufficient. I’ve been thinking about the press table, and how a micro fixturing table would be ideal.
 

CV428

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You can get 4140PH (28-32Rc) rod stock, but honestly hardening isn't going to give you any real advantage. In fact, when it comes to press tooling and componentry, overhardening is a major issue. When I'm designing dies and presses, contact tooling is usually A2, D2, or S7 in the high 50's to low 60's Rc depending on the application. I leave couplers, linkages, and supporting details unhardened.

17 years ago, I was working on a simple die set for cutting a product using an air-over-oil cylinder. The tool shop accidentally overhardened certain details unbeknownst to us (including the rod coupler) to 64Rc+. It ran a few cycles and the coupler exploded like glass. They made a new set out of 4140 stock and it never had a problem again.

Hardening really brings out the weakness in any thin areas of tooling, too. It's notorious for fracturing around holes (clearance, threaded, bushing) too close to the edge of material, so I castle them out or draw them inward so there's more webbing thickness. Hardness reduces wear but increases brittleness.

As for tooling, if you're working in a purchased press frame, you can get simple die sets with integrated bearings that you bolt your tooling into (Danly, Dayton, etc). Schmidt makes some really nice manual advance press frames too. When I'm designing one from scratch, I put linear bearings along the press axis, but behind the tooling so the bearing package is hidden- makes for easier load/unload of components but really depends on the parts and process.
 
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CV428

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“If a cluttered desk is a sign of a cluttered mind, of what, then, is an empty desk a sign? – Albert Einstein

-While working under contract for Denso Automotive (Nippon Denso) that was staffed by Japanese management I was cited for having 3 paperclips out of place on my desk.....

For a short while, a company I used to work for had a strict Lean/6S desk policy where we were advised to "tape-off" and label everything essential similar to a shadow-board, and nothing else was allowed on our desks. One of my messy coworkers took the path of malicious compliance and taped off random trash he left on his desk. Labels were stuck on at odd angles. It was awful. The rest of us started adding random stuff to his desk every day until he noticed. It looked like a junkyard. Eventually management gave up and scrapped over-implementing Lean/6S
 
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motorcitykid

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You can get 4140PH (28-32Rc) rod stock, but honestly hardening isn't going to give you any real advantage. In fact, when it comes to press tooling and componentry, overhardening is a major issue. When I'm designing dies and presses, contact tooling is usually A2, D2, or S7 in the high 50's to low 60's Rc depending on the application. I leave couplers, linkages, and supporting details unhardened.

17 years ago, I was working on a simple die set for cutting a product using an air-over-oil cylinder. The tool shop accidentally overhardened certain details unbeknownst to us (including the rod coupler) to 64Rc+. It ran a few cycles and the coupler exploded like glass. They made a new set out of 4140 stock and it never had a problem again.

Hardening really brings out the weakness in any thin areas of tooling, too. It's notorious for fracturing around holes (clearance, threaded, bushing) too close to the edge of material, so I castle them out or draw them inward so there's more webbing thickness. Hardness reduces wear but increases brittleness.

As for tooling, if you're working in a purchased press frame, you can get simple die sets with integrated bearings that you bolt your tooling into (Danly, Dayton, etc). Schmitt makes some really nice manual advance press frames too. When I'm designing one from scratch, I put linear bearings along the press axis, but behind the tooling so the bearing package is hidden- makes for easier load/unload of components but really depends on the parts and process.
That makes sense, similar to my knife steels. S30V has a higher rc hardness but is prone to chipping with an acute angle greater than 25°, where A2 doesn’t hold an edge as long but would be more likely to roll than chip. Rigid can also mean brittle, that makes good sense.

Thank you for the insight I am going to look at the die’s offered by the companies suggested.
 
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motorcitykid

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For a short while, a company I used to work for had a strict Lean/6S desk policy where we were advised to "tape-off" and label everything essential similar to a shadow-board, and nothing else was allowed on our desks. One of my messy coworkers took the path of malicious compliance and taped off random trash he left on his desk. Labels were stuck on at odd angles. It was awful. The rest of us started adding random stuff to his desk every day until he noticed. It looked like a junkyard. Eventually management gave up and scrapped over-implementing Lean/6S
That is hilarious! I appreciate Lean manufacturing, in my garage things have a tendency to get chaotic if not immediately put away after use. Which at times doesn’t happen due to other time constraints, I just need to do better.
 
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motorcitykid

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First issue. While the handle may be great for leverage, it may need to be a bit shorter to clear my table idea.
I have seen videos on YouTube where the user removes the retention nut from the opposing side to allow for reclocking the handle to a more desirable position. My thought is why not make it sprung? Pull it out and reclock while having a nut with a spacer and a spring to provide tension so it isn’t a hazard and still bolted to the press.
 

CV428

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First issue. While the handle may be great for leverage, it may need to be a bit shorter to clear my table idea.
I have seen videos on YouTube where the user removes the retention nut from the opposing side to allow for reclocking the handle to a more desirable position. My thought is why not make it sprung? Pull it out and reclock while having a nut with a spacer and a spring to provide tension so it isn’t a hazard and still bolted to the press.

You could use dog clutch details with a spring loaded keeper. Pull the keeper back, re-orient the handle, release keeper, dog clutch re-engages. Really simple. Misumi sells a lot of components like that for standard diameter rods and keyways, but it's almost all metric. They also have a neat 3D design library you can browse with direct links to products on their website.

Or if you're feeling really inventive, you could do a ratcheting arbor press. It hits a point of diminishing returns though- for the cost of some of the components to build one, you could just buy one. But, it would make for a neat project if you have a Bridgeport nearby...
 
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motorcitykid

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You could use dog clutch details with a spring loaded keeper. Pull the keeper back, re-orient the handle, release keeper, dog clutch re-engages. Really simple. Misumi sells a lot of components like that for standard diameter rods and keyways, but it's almost all metric.
Thank you for the insight I’ll check that out!
 

rustyzman

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Not that I am suggesting it in this application, but a way that people sometimes get the re-orientation function on solid lever arbor presses is to take out the ram and mill off the very last tooth (bottom one). If you roll it up all the way to that tooth you reach a freewheeling slip point, and can re-engage at a different handle angle.

Now, the handle still needs to make whatever rotation you need to get there, but this allows you to get it into a nice working position for your actual pressing operation.

On my big long stroke FAMCO (Art, the Arbor Press), I replaced the handle with a machined out socket and use a 3/4" drive ratchet. That original sliding rod was quite large and it pinched me hard, twice, before I ever even started the restoration work on it. It had to go.

I also added sensitive handwheel on the opposing side for positioning and put in a friction lock on the shaft to lock it from moving.
Just other ideas.

Before and after pics for reference
IMG_4830.JPG IMG_20230218_101119916_HDR (1).jpg
 
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motorcitykid

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Fantastic job! I like the ratchet idea and the ram relief, using my press the past few days I definitely see the value in both.
 

rustyzman

Well-known member
Joined
May 7, 2015
Messages
772
Location
Chicagoland
I didn't do the tooth removal on mine, because the ratchet serves to give me what I need. I love that arbor press, it is so handy. Only about 3 tons force, but almost two foot stroke.

I did have a broken off tooth on the pinion gear that I did not realize when I bought it. It was pretty seized up, as it had been living either outside or close to it for a long time. So I did have to make a new tooth for the pinion, machine out the broken one and pin the new one in place. In effect, it had a tooth relieved when I got it, but it was on the wrong side of the equation!

Plus the gib plates were missing, so the screws were just gouging the heck out of the ram... Sad how people treat stuff.
 
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