Ridiculous difference in prices for contracting a build

[CodyF]

Hey guys, so I'm in Phoenix and I've got a 30x30 build going on. It's as absolutely barebones and textbook as you can possibly get, with the exception of 12' ceiling height. It's got a concrete tile roof and stucco outside to match the house.

So I'm leaning on doing it myself, or contracting it out myself at least, but I figured I'd get a few quotes from some generals. First guy comes back at $39,000 ($43/sqft). Not a bad price, I figured, I'll get a few more and if I can pull off something around $33 - $35k it's a done deal.

So then come in the next set of bids... $52,000 followed by $90,000 then $62,000 and $45,000. Looks like I'm going to be self-contracting and taking some vacation time to build it my self I suppose. What's the deal, though? Do some of these guys just not want to take the job? Do they not understand the scope? I figured I'd get a 20-30% variance in price, but right now it seems like they are wildly throwing out numbers.

And a follow up question: Would it be reasonable to tell them my current best offer and see if they can beat it? Is it offensive to haggle with them on price? I'm thinking I can do it for under $25k and a few cases of beer if I contract out the concrete and stucco while doing everything else myself and with friends.

 

[thewatusi]

I'd bid high too. Life is too short to deal with pita customers.

 

[dmlehmann]

I'd bid high too. Life is too short to deal with pita customers.

I think you have it backwards. Life is too short to deal with entitled, low skill contractors that think they deserve the world in return for barely showing up.

 

[xyster101]

Quality costs money. I have learned that lesson time and time again. Be it buying tools or hiring work, spend more to get less head aches. Now im not saying go with the $90k guy but make sure yoy have everything the same between contractors. I would offer up other quotes, but it probably will not change their minds.

 

[bczygan]

Were any of these bids itemized?
Did you have detained drawings and specifications and selections?
Did you do a takeoff for materials to check against each trades bid and takeoff?

From the drawings above, I could give you a price anywhere from X to 3 times X.

If your bids are all over the place, then the bidding process is out of whack.

3 qualified bidders, bidding on the same detailed construction documents, should be withing 5% of each other.

The more tightly you define the project, the smaller the spread will be.

You should know what the building will cost with 5% before you send it out for bids. Do your own takeoff and estimate. Use it as a tool to bring your bidders into line.


Want more info?

 

[Stuart in MN]

There's no need to start another bad contractor or bad customer argument.

As mentioned, make sure the contractors are all bidding on the same scope of work. Based on the picture you posted it would appear you have a decent set of plans (that is, assuming this is just one sheet of the set) but do you know if the different bids are all interpreting them correctly? Are they all licensed and bonded? Have they provided references, and/or have you checked out their reputations? Are they including the cost of permits? The $90k bid does sound out of line, but the others are at least in the same ballpark.

 

[Mike-]

Yeah, throw out the lowest and highest bid!
Meet the other 3 and pick one.

 

[Cyberbear]

Being able to estimate the material costs are fairly simple, if you have the basic knowledge for building this simple project. Find out the total material cost + the labor costs.
Be sure to get the following info before choosing a contractor and signing a contract:
1. Is the contractor currently licensed, bonded and insured? Very important.
2. Check with the state contractors board to see how many complaints have been filed.
3. Ask for contact information and talk with past customers.
4. Have a firm completion date written into the contract with a penalty clause for non-completion on time.
I acted as owner / builder on my 2400 sq/ft shop several years ago. You should arrange to pay the materials suppliers yourself to guard against liens for non payment. I used to work for a home remodeling contractor who sub-contracted everything and I know full well what needs to be guarded against. Many of those in this industry are not honest about honoring legal commitments. There is nothing wrong with sharing the written estimates of competing contractors, this lets them know you are knowledgeable
and are carefully looking for a fair deal.
If you choose to DIY, then make sure slab and footings are right before you begin, the remainder is less critical, especially if you choose to take out a permit. Taking out a permit is a personal choice, I don't, but few are willing to fight city hall. Every state is different.

 

[CodyF]

I'd bid high too. Life is too short to deal with pita customers.

I don't think you realize how low maintenance I am. I have no time frame for the build, I'm not going to complain it's going slow as long as it's going slowly. As long as I get a shop that I can work in that won't blow over at a slight breeze I'm happy. If I'm enough of a PITA to these guys that they are going to overbid me like that, they have no business being in business.

You should know what the building will cost with 5% before you send it out for bids. Do your own takeoff and estimate. Use it as a tool to bring your bidders into line.


Want more info?

Nope the info you've provided is great. A few of them have been itemized, others just a lump sum.

As mentioned, make sure the contractors are all bidding on the same scope of work. Based on the picture you posted it would appear you have a decent set of plans (that is, assuming this is just one sheet of the set) but do you know if the different bids are all interpreting them correctly?

That's a big question I have. The plans to me are very clear. They specify the ties to use, lam beam specs, slab specs, electrical panel, OSB size, stucco, even nail sizes for different applications. There's some variance in cost based upon which outlets they go for, light and switch brands, where they source the doors or windows, but there doesn't seem to be enough unanswered questions there for one contractor to bid $40k and the next bid $60k.

 

[Astro-t]

I just built a 24x28 garage and can tell you if you think the higher price bid will get you quality your dreaming!!!!

 

[rockwithjason]

I'd bid high too. Life is too short to deal with pita customers.

Where do you get off saying some **** like that?

 

[Playwme]

Where do you get off saying some **** like that?

While it is a hasty judgement to make, it does make a bit of a point. If you know a customer is getting a whole heap of bids and trying to get you to match someone else's then it does give off a bit of a sign about what they could be like to deal with. There's a possibility the 90k guy really didn't need or want the work.

I think you have it backwards. Life is too short to deal with entitled, low skill contractors that think they deserve the world in return for barely showing up.

This is also a very valid point.



To the OP, Rule number 1: never tell them you aren't in a hurry or they can do it between other jobs. You want them to come in, build it, then go.

 

[MushCreek]

When we had an A/C system installed years ago, the low bidder was $2700; the high bidder was $5000 for the exact same system- same brand, model numbers, everything. The low bidder had an excellent reputation and did a great job- on time, clean work, very considerate of our house. Why was one bidder almost twice as much? Maybe there are people out there who can afford to just take the first bid they get, and go with it. For others (like me) I shop around a lot, both because I like to get the best deal, and because I simply can't afford the high bidder. At $5K, we would have had to forgo A/C altogether.

There are always high bidders that are really out there. I had my own business, and when I bid stuff out, there was always one bidder that was crazy expensive. I finally stopped getting bids from the guy that was always way high.

 

[jonjon1]

I wouldn't throw the low bid away, lol.. Thats just crazy, If its apples to apples, it is what it is, now if it was someone painting your families portrait for over your fireplace, that is different, contracting a building is going to depend on who he hires for the most part..


$40 per sq is fair, I am going to say depending on how much sight work you have and how much you are going to do yourself you are going to spend $30+ per sq...

Contractors make 20%, thats the base, and its fair.

Heres what I would do, I would first do the sight work, I own machines but you can rent a machine pretty fair, buy a laser level http://www.amazon.com/dp/B00ME77KCI/?tag=atomicindus08-20 I have a few of them but for the money that one does the job, you can find it for around $300... Get your grades right, dig your footing, etc.

Now its time to deal with permits...

Next call a few form guys and have them come out to the sight, some will tell you which cement co's they like to work with, some will even organize the delivery for you and get you their disocunt.

get a co. to pour and install your floor, this is where I would be careful to hire someone good..
grab a shove and back fill that cement work, ... {now your saving money}
Now you have your floor and footing.

At this point you should have talked to a handful of framing guys, get a good idea of what they will charge you to get your building weather tight, its nice to find a company that does stick, siding, and roofing.
Sometimes you get a better price telling them you will buy 100% of the materials... You definitely would rather buy all the materials yourself, you can control quality that way, know the price of your materials and get the subs to give you prices with and with out....
Most guys hire out garage doors, so you are usually better off taking care of that yourself.

Now you can do a lot of this process yourself, for instance, once its framed you can easily spend a day popping in windows and man doors, it doesn't take a rocket surgeon to insulate and run electrical wires to where you want your panel, etc..

There are plenty of places to save money, when I was contracting builds, I used to add $1500 for garbage removal, $500-1000 for cleanup {thats just picking up garbage and sweeping, washing windows, etc after completion} , $500 for dealing with inspectors and permits {not the cost of permits, just going to get them and meeting inspectors}, and $5% for price fluctuation or math errors...


Do it yourself, it will be fun...

 

[wssix99]

Yeah, throw out the lowest and highest bid!
Meet the other 3 and pick one.

This is great advice for this level of information. That lowest price could be your lowest quality option.

If you are just building a garage, I'd also ask for a portfilio. A good contractor will be glad to show off their work and will have pictures.

It doesn't surprise me that your bids are far off from each other. You have a lot of variables here that can impact the price. The height of the walls is one. (Do you need a crane for the trusses, scaffolding for the workers, etc.) For a small job, the cost to get heavy equipment out to you for the foundation could vary wildly based on who they would use, etc.

IMO - $40-50 per square foot is a good price.

 

[CTyankee]

I'd want to check to that the GC AND the subs(assuming they will have them) are licensed and insured. That factor could cause a huge differences in labor costs.

 

[DekeT]

If I'm enough of a PITA to these guys that they are going to overbid me like that, they have no business being in business.

"No business being in business"? That statement sure is arrogant. From their business model POV it may seem you are enough a PITA that the high price is a guarantee for them to stay in business if they take your job. All you have to do is say no.

 

[Beemer533]

I'd bid high too. Life is too short to deal with pita customers.

So shopping around is being a PITA? That makes no sense at all. You're crazy if you think soliciting a price from only one contractor for a job like this makes any sense, fiscal or otherwise.

If we were talking about installing a sink, yeah probably not worth shopping around, but a building?

 

[PT Doc]

Get referrals from someone for sure. Maybe builders, remodelers, but don't just sign someone up because it sounded good. I think we all can bs within the industry that we work so it's not difficult to answer a homeowners question witha the right answer. Problem is that the answer given might not be what the contractor will do. Too bad there are so many shady contractors out there that do not know how to run a business. Just my opinion.

 

[59 wagon man]

ok so now you have a price range . take the middle price as your dollar amount as a ballpark. i say this cause everyone knows your costs will run over so this sould cover you for surprises. Before you even stick a shovel or machine in the ground GET A SET OF APPROVED PLANS . now you can shop around a everyone is bidding on the same thing not their interpatation. it would be foolish to do anything and realize your to close to the property line or some other problem wich could have been easily avoided

 

[stikman56]

So shopping around is being a PITA? That makes no sense at all. You're crazy if you think soliciting a price from only one contractor for a job like this makes any sense, fiscal or otherwise.

If we were talking about installing a sink, yeah probably not worth shopping around, but a building?

I can say from getting prices for the excavation work to build our house, DO SHOP AROUND. First guy didn't show, didn't call. Next guy was at $14,000 if nothing went wrong, if it did, he'd be charging more. Next guy would dig trenches for pipe to utilities and do the pipe too for $11,000 PLUS run rain drains underground for all the gutters as well. Next guy said he couldn't beat that bid, that they were fast and they were goo and he wished he knew who he was bidding against before he came out. You'd be nuts to just take one bid and go with it, unless you just didn't care about the money. I've always heard you want to get three bids for any work like that. FWIW, I'm having the home builder build me a bare bones 3-car shop 34x30 with a 6/12 roof pitch and the site prepped already by the excavator and it's costing $33,300.00 Increased roof pitch was an extra $1400.00 It has one man door and no windows, I'll have to put those in later. Reason I did it that way is because it's in the construction loan, it's all there when we move in, and one payment. Otherwise I might have built one later, but this was an effort to cut down on the hassle, it cost a bit more I'm sure, but less stress in the end.

 

[Icky1911]

I live in Michigan and had a 28x30 built with a 12 ft ceiling. I did my due diligence and had it quoted by 3 contractors. I had two bids that came in close to each other and one that was "off". I went out and took a look at a few of the jobs each had done and spoke to some of the people that had work done by each of them. After looking and talking it become clear as to which one I was going to use. I paid $45k for a tear down, removal, and ground up build. The contrete alone was $6k. I put another $5k into the finish of the inside and upstairs. The contractor did an outstanding job and communicated very well with me. Spend some time investigate some of the jobs each has done. Your decision might show itself.

 

[David C]

Maybe a way to think about this is to put yourself in the place of the contractor.

To prepare a bid the contractor has to do a fair amount of work that he may not be compensated for. He must make a materials list and get a guaranteed price from all of the suppliers. He has to review his past projects to verify his most current labor costs. He has to include time for his client. And if he wants to sharpen his pencil and provide a low bid, without losing money, he has to spend a little more time on each of those tasks.

Your project is small and you have gotten prices from 5 contractors and are considering asking others to bid. A guy does all that work and maybe, maybe, he has a one in 5 or less chance of getting the job. If this were a $4mil project then 5 bidders is OK, but for $43K.

While the PITA guy was maybe undiplomatic he has a point. You are expecting a lot here. Also in the construction business shopping bids, which you are suggesting, is considered unethical and loathsome. The PITA guy, as well as your bidders, may be responding to that as well.

These guys spend a lot of time massaging homeowners. They get a feel for who you are and how you will be to work with. This is often reflected in the bid price. Not saying you gave off a problem vibe but keep this in mind as you move forward.

In general if you have a less desirable or profitable project and he knows he doesn't have much chance of getting it he will give you a high bid. If you take it, good, if not he goes on to the next, better (in his mind) project. Never forget that, just like you, he is in the business of making money from his labor.

My suggestion is you pick two guys and tell them that is all the bids you are getting. Then have a discussion with each about costs, what can you take out of the project to get you closer to the price you want. Then make a new list of requirements and get a price from each. Don't shop their bids.

FYI $45/Sq. Ft. seems to be a reasonable price. Homeowners always want more than they say they can afford. Always. Sometimes they come up with more money, sometimes they take something out of the project.

As stated above do not offer to let your project be worked on at the contractors leisure. You will get poorer construction, and who knows when you will actually get it completed. It is not profitable to move in and out of a job and if he does this he will have to take something out of the project to make a profit.

 

[PT Doc]

To me it's kind of funny. People say that the contractors are spending time and might not get the job. Then they get there and put together a bid that almost ensures that they won't get it. Then they probably say, I knew I wouldn't get it. If you talk to homeowners that have used contractors the one most annoying thing is that they are late or don't show. Then next most annoying is poor work quality. If a contractor does a good job at a fair price then they will be busy. Word does get around and those that bid with ridiculous pricing will likely get bad press when those homeowners are talking with others in passing. It's very surprising also that some contractors simply want to work half a year but a years worth of money. It's a free economy but when the economy goes south the honest guy will continue to have work due to word of mouth.

 

[David C]

PT

I agree with everything you said. The worst experiences of my professional life have been the result of bad contractors and what you describe pales in comparison to my own experience.

However if you want to be treated with consideration and respect you have to practice it too.

Get references, interview the contractor past clients and then create a very comprehensive list of what you want, and don't want. Write it all down; good fences make good neighbors. Practice trust but verify.

 

[99LeCouch]

Had a similar experience with a new roof on the house. Arranged to get quotes from a few roofers. We went with the one who showed up on time, quoted us a reasonable price with clearly laid out overages in case of issues, and gave us a whole page of references without asking. After checking a few references we dropped off a signed acceptance. They quickly installed a straight roof that laid flat from the get-go, and asked for payment after making sure we were satisfied with the work. All in all a pleasant experience.

Good luck getting the garage built!

 

[Kevin54]

I'd bid high too. Life is too short to deal with pita customers.

Why is the OP a pita customer? You can draw that conclusion just from reading his post? Must be nice to be psychic.

For the OP....I was dealing with the same thing on a 28x38 addition, and a 7'24' bumpout. The prices ranged from $37,000 to $57,000. I spoke with my concrete guy yesterday. He gave me a price of $8965 for all of the block, flatwork, and hauling off some concrete and asphalt, but he wanted to bid on the complete job. After talking with him, and he had already had another guy figuring up the materials, we settled on $35,000, and I am the GC on it. I didn't want to go that route, but for a $20,000 savings, I can run down the road for a permit, and I can do my own drawings.

My concrete guy has done work for me before, so I know what his work is like, and I know what his work ethics are like. When him and his crew are here, strictly business, and work non stop until late afternoon. He told me about 10 days for block and flatwork, and another 10-15 days for framing and getting things under roof and dried in.

So go for it yourself and be the GC. Just don't be the pain in the *** that the psychic's make you out to be. Now I have to go pull my Tarot cards out

 

[buening]

At least you are able to get bids in a timely manner. I'm getting bids on a 26x32 attached and its like pulling teeth just to get them to even submit their bids. The ones I've receive are all over the place as well. One was $48k, a few at $63k, and a few in the $80k range. Keep in mind this is a 3 wall garage too. I gave them detailed drawings, an estimated total material list/cost (so I know the cost of materials in this project as a sanity check to their bids), and even had each Contractor do a site visit with me to go over the specifics and identify any potential issues to make sure both parties were on the same page for their bids.

One Contractor's bid had the stem and slab material and labor at over $30k! He was subcontracting that work out and assured me that bid was correct and scope was fully understood. Many (at least in this area) specialize in one area and subcontract the rest out, so the bid is dependent on the subcontractors as well. I agree with looking at their previous work and talking with past clients.

 

[rburke65]

Kevin54..... Are you finally making some progress? Hopefully......

 

[Kevin54]

Kevin54..... Are you finally making some progress? Hopefully......

Progress only in the way of I now have a contractor, and I have to play GC, which I'm alright with, but I really didn't want to do anything. But in our county, it's not too bad. I could turn in a sketch on a napkin for a building permit if I wanted. All the county wants to know is basically what I am doing. As far as the township permit, all they care about is that I don't exceed 15' without a variance, and they get their $40. So I'm all good there. I'm working on some drawings today, then I'll get my Township permit on Friday, and probably drop off my drawings on Friday. The County just wants some sort of drawing specifying what foundation, what wall stud size, and what trusses or rafters are being used to make sure they meet the snowload in our area.

 

[Kevin54]

At least you are able to get bids in a timely manner. I'm getting bids on a 26x32 attached and its like pulling teeth just to get them to even submit their bids. The ones I've receive are all over the place as well. One was $48k, a few at $63k, and a few in the $80k range. Keep in mind this is a 3 wall garage too. I gave them detailed drawings, an estimated total material list/cost (so I know the cost of materials in this project as a sanity check to their bids), and even had each Contractor do a site visit with me to go over the specifics and identify any potential issues to make sure both parties were on the same page for their bids.

One Contractor's bid had the stem and slab material and labor at over $30k! He was subcontracting that work out and assured me that bid was correct and scope was fully understood. Many (at least in this area) specialize in one area and subcontract the rest out, so the bid is dependent on the subcontractors as well. I agree with looking at their previous work and talking with past clients.

I'm doing a 28' x 36' addition to my garage, and an 7'x24' bumpout. Both with block foundation on footers @ 36" depth. My concrete guy gave me a bid of $8965 for all complete. That is 1196 sq. ft. so it breaks down to $7.49/sq.ft. complete. And that is with the concrete guy buying the materials.

 

[sixty4]

When I built my 40x30 garage, I had one guy that I really wanted to do the job. I got four bids. The guy I wanted told me point blank that estimating what I wanted was tough because honestly he didnt want to rip me off but still needed to make a days pay and pay his guys. We ended up doing time and material. So we sat down with what he thought each step would cost, with a not to exceed price, so it worked well. I got everything I needed and even came in below the lowest bid, and he made money. Everyone was happy,garage came out great and still use him today.

 

[Kevin54]

Sixty4....do you have a build thread on that in the Gallery? That is a great looking garage. If not, could you put some pics together and show it off in the Gallery?

 

[sixty4]

Sixty4....do you have a build thread on that in the Gallery? That is a great looking garage. If not, could you put some pics together and show it off in the Gallery?

Thanks, It was up several years ago. I will check my old computer to see if I still have all the Pics.

 

[Disney]

Agree with above. I want to see more pics of that beautiful shop going up!

 

[pablo94sc]

Please post a pic thread Sixty4.

 

[Zeke]

Handsome garage sixty4. And I wholeheartedly agree that T&M is the way to go the way you did it. I try to do all my jobs (small ones is all I do anymore) that way.

 

[Chasbec]

I think you have it backwards. Life is too short to deal with entitled, low skill contractors that think they deserve the world in return for barely showing up.

X2!

 

[wantacoe]

Why wouldn't a customer shop around? And why would that person be a pita for doing so? I work hard for my money and try to get the best bang for the buck.

 

[quick60]

If you can find a contractor that just builds garages you might get a better deal both in price and quality. I shopped around and happened upon a garage only contractor. He had two garages going up and invited me to stop in and look at them and talk to the homeowners. I ended up not building due to other financial issues but when I do he will be the one I go with.