"Right to Repair"

[mtkst19]

the dealer makes it hard on an indy shop no doubt about it. you really cant be a jack of all trades shop-- you almost need to specialize. Or you need a big tool budget to keep current.

once you specialize, you find ways around the dealer. however, the learning curve is there and you are behind the dealership. for the most part as an indy--you dont see **** until car is off warranty. it is wise to make friends w/ the dealerships. knowledge/experience is the best tool in a tech's box. when a car or engine is new to you, a 5 min talk w/ a friend inside a dealership to get the lowdown on common failure points they seen under warranty is worth it's weight in gold.

 

[Stick]

It won't happen. They do the same with certain OEM parts and a nastier, more recent move is to start encrypting computer data so you can't even access the information with an outside scanner. Car manufacturers enjoy a protection as a monopoly that other industries can't get anywhere near. Democrats normally love to take off after monopolies, but they don't do it for vehicle manufacturers because it helps out their unions. Unions = guaranteed Democrat votes. If any other industry participated in similar behavior, they would be screaming murder. Can you imagine if Merck came out with a drug that also required a Merck-only produced delivery device?

Ignoring the Union bashing BS, because it's not relevant....

Per OBDII/CAN spec, they do provide generic access to the ECM. The fact that it doesn't provide the same amount of information as OE scan tools is irrelevant. As a professional tech (who doesn't work at a dealer BTW), I'd much rather be properly tooled and use the OE tools to repair the vehicle, it's often easier to diagnose and repair that way, because it works as a complete system.

If the independent shop chooses not to be properly trained or equipped to do the job that they are paid to do, it's not the manufacturer's fault that the shop isn't properly equipped when the resources are there for them. Shops today just need to be selective in what they work on, and not take on jobs that they aren't equipped to handle. That's not the manufacturer's fault, and in the end, a shop that specializes in a couple of makes is going to be a better shop than one that works on everything that comes through the door, even if just from a training/knowledge perspective. In the end, that's a good thing for consumers, and "right to repair" legislation isn't helping things, if anything it will have the opposite effect.

 

[Griff93]

On some cars (MB) you can't change the ATF yourself. No dipstick, no fill spout. Can only be done at the dealer.

BMW's have been like that for quite a while as well. You can still do it yourself if you correctly follow the procedure. Unfortunately part of that is topping it off while running but making sure the internal transmission fluid temperature doesn't exceed 50C per the transmission control unit using the factory scan tool. It's of course still do able without the scan tool if some common sense is applied. You will need a fluid transfer pump of some kind though. I made one out of a garden sprayer.

 

[Hammer1963]

Stick and MrMark are correct on what they say. When you have to battle and re-repair hack jobs performed by people who have no idea what they are doing, then you kind of have a better grasp on why cars have become what they are when it comes to repairs.

The manufactures are under stringent safety and fuel management regulations that require constant monitering and hey, it's complicated. Thats just the way it is. I have to invest on a daily basis to perform repairs the correct way and to compete with other shops. There is not a day that goes by that I do not have to research something I have to work on and this is for Collision repair. If you want to stay in this business and keep good customers, then change with the technology or get left behind......There is an old saying about baseball, If it was easy, everybody would be in the Majors. The same applies to our business.

I hear people say all the time "they don't make them like they used to" My response is thank goodness. Todays cars may be more difficult to repair for most people, but then again most people don't need to be doing it anyway.

It's not the right to repair, but rather the ability to repair that seems to be the issue.

 

[poprockcrusher]

1150 a year gets you a subscription to GM SI 200 manuals -TIS 2 web for reprogramming
just like the dealer has
what are they ? supposed to GIVE it away ?

 

[Griff93]

That's totally untrue. You can buy the dipstick from MB and there is a fill tube right under hood with a cap on it. The dealer techs keep the dipstick on their table and you have to remove the cap, which has a red key lock that gets replaced everytime you take the cap off, and then they put the dipstick in and check. You can do this too or just buy the dipstick and leave it in I am pretty sure.

Anyway, any indy or you yourself can change the ATF if you are willing to crawl under the car and do it. It's a hard to impossibly messy job without a lift. It's one of the few jobs I probably wouldn't do. The torque converter even has a drain plug per the service writer.

It's only the Cheap MB that I have seen that have no dipstick for the oil, but you can buy that too if you want. Most people are incapable of checking their own oil and the cars already have an electronic check on the instrument cluster so I guess MB figures it is unneeded. And, in truth, it's hard to argue with them.

You can't buy the factory special dipstick tool and leave it in there. There's no provision for it to seal in the tube. It's also to long to get the hood closed.

 

[poprockcrusher]

chryslers don't have dipsticks - 4t40e GM have a weep hole , no dipstick or tube

 

[Griff93]

Even changing a battery on a newer BMW requires reprogramming. Dealers all do it but, I understand that some private shops don't bother. I don't know what harm would come of not performing the reprogramming.
If I've got a 50K + car, and expect to keep it for any length of time, I'll have the dealer replace the battery and perform the reprogramming.

I've seen batteries that have failed with less than a year on them because of not having the DME reprogrammed for a replacement. There's actually a selection of different AHs to choose from on most BMW's when coding them for a new battery. Most have a DME controlled alternator so it needs to know what battery the car is equipped with. Some independent shops can do this correctly as well. It just depends on what equipment they have.

 

[big g]

On some cars (MB) you can't change the ATF yourself. No dipstick, no fill spout. Can only be done at the dealer.

some chryslers to with the nag 1 trans no dipstick and yoy need the trans temp

 

[IndyGarage]

This is a huge problem. And the auto OEM's don't have a clue about the long term effects.

If they do it wrong, they will doom the resale value of their vehicles, which will eventually affect the new values.

Right now, there are some GM cars where the ECM won't turn the fuel pump on if the serialization isn't correct. You actually have to reprogram the computer in order to put a new fuel pump on.

The systems to do these reprograms are very expensive - prohibitively expensive for an independent shop.

And another thing - just like your computer getting automatic upgrades - the OEM is able to send automatic upgrades via the service system. This is great if the upgrades are good for the customer - but what if they are bad for the customer, but good for the OEM? Say for example the OEM determines that the engine isn't warming up fast enough to heat up the catalyst and the emissions are running a bit shy. So they put out a program upgrade that turns up the idle to 1500 RPM for another minute on startup, and every time the catalyst cools down.

Now say the mechanic doesn't have a choice, they have to download the update. Now all the sudden the customer's vehicle runs different, and gets worse gas mileage, and the mechanic has no idea why. The mechanic now gets blamed for doing something wrong with the car.

 

[Tom2]

I bet someday we will have such cheap vehicles that it cost more to repair than to buy a new one.

I would have expected that as well considering that's how our society is with everything else. Cars on the other hand tend to get more expensive over time as a result of new technology, safety features, etc..

Maybe eventually we'll get to a point where all cars come from China and cost $5000. But doesn't seem to be happening real soon.

 

[Test Tech]

As the manufacturers make it harder and harder to service your vehicle, your self maybe the right idea is that ALL OF US stop sending the payment when the car stops running! Maybe the car companies will get idea when they go broke, oh wait a minute that's already happened and they haven't come out any smarter.

Even better would be for a few enterprising Americans to start a car company based on making a simple dependable car, and providing full service info to the owner at time of purchase and for the life of the car. Allowing the owner to service the vehicle themselves or provide the service info to the shop of their choosing.

 

[Stick]

The systems to do these reprograms are very expensive - prohibitively expensive for an independent shop.

$1600 for the best J-2534 interface hardly seems expensive for a one time purchase to have the ability to do reflashes. Depending on the OEM, the service and programming info can range from free (kia and hyundai) to reasonable (honda/acura, $350/yr) to moderately expensive (ford, $21.95/72hr, $325/mo, $2700/yr). Hell, our AllData subscription at work is only ~$2500/yr for all makes/models, and even if you worked on something like Ferrari's the access to that is $100/day, $350/mo, or $3k/yr for service and programming info direct from the factory. Almost seems like a bargain to me for the type of info you have access to. And if you can't build that into the overhead of running your shop, you are doing something wrong...

It's been said several times in this thread already, you need to specialize or get left behind. The days where you can work on anything that comes through your door are long gone (I'd say since the mid '90's or so), and part of specialization is being properly tooled and equipped to handle the type of work that comes through your door. If you are a shop owner who is looking at something like a Snap-on Modis or Verus so you can work on "everything", you'd be better off spending that $6-8k on three good factory scan tools, especially if most of your work is primarily domestic, primarily imports, or primarily euro.

And another thing - just like your computer getting automatic upgrades - the OEM is able to send automatic upgrades via the service system. This is great if the upgrades are good for the customer - but what if they are bad for the customer, but good for the OEM? Say for example the OEM determines that the engine isn't warming up fast enough to heat up the catalyst and the emissions are running a bit shy. So they put out a program upgrade that turns up the idle to 1500 RPM for another minute on startup, and every time the catalyst cools down.

Then you would have a problem with the heaters in the O2/Lambda sensors, and you would have a check engine light. A reflash wouldn't solve that kind of problem, nor should it.

Now say the mechanic doesn't have a choice, they have to download the update. Now all the sudden the customer's vehicle runs different, and gets worse gas mileage, and the mechanic has no idea why. The mechanic now gets blamed for doing something wrong with the car.

I'd wager that you've never done a reflash before or dealt with reprogramming of any sort. There is no reason to reflash unless something is wrong with the vehicle, and no reflashes are "forced" on the tech or vehicle. Generally reflashes are there to fix problems with (comparatively) small numbers of vehicles, the rest of them out there on the road are running just fine.

Reprogramming is just to make sure the modules talk to each other correctly. Chrysler is really bad about needing reprogramming after replacing a module, but it's not a big deal if you are aware of it, and it helps to prevent "diagnostic parts swapping" which is completely unnecessary, and vehicle theft (like say swapping out a security module to get the vehicle to start). However reprogramming is just to make the modules say "hey, I do in fact belong to this vehicle, everything is ok here". Not a big deal at all if you are properly equipped to deal with it.

 

[TruckTech]

This legislation is nothing new. And once again, all I hear is, "Blah blah blah, bitching and moaning". But hey, I guess I do work at a dealer...

 

[Uncle Ben]

Good websites:

http://www.careauto.org/

http://www.righttorepair.org/main/default.aspx

Thanks! I used the "righttorepair" website to send messages by email to by my senators and congress person to support the right to repair initiative

I hope everyone else will do the same...we can just sit and hope and complain to each other about it and expect anything good to happen

 

[eborcim]

But they do not realize if everyone they are use to selling to is out of work ,who will buy their stuff.

Welcome to Wal-Mart!

 

[poprockcrusher]

This is a huge problem. And the auto OEM's don't have a clue about the long term effects.

If they do it wrong, they will doom the resale value of their vehicles, which will eventually affect the new values.

Right now, there are some GM cars where the ECM won't turn the fuel pump on if the serialization isn't correct. You actually have to reprogram the computer in order to put a new fuel pump on.

The systems to do these reprograms are very expensive - prohibitively expensive for an independent shop.

And another thing - just like your computer getting automatic upgrades - the OEM is able to send automatic upgrades via the service system. This is great if the upgrades are good for the customer - but what if they are bad for the customer, but good for the OEM? Say for example the OEM determines that the engine isn't warming up fast enough to heat up the catalyst and the emissions are running a bit shy. So they put out a program upgrade that turns up the idle to 1500 RPM for another minute on startup, and every time the catalyst cools down.

Now say the mechanic doesn't have a choice, they have to download the update. Now all the sudden the customer's vehicle runs different, and gets worse gas mileage, and the mechanic has no idea why. The mechanic now gets blamed for doing something wrong with the car.

tow it to my dealer and I will program it for a hundred bucks

 

[LEVE]

I've got some heavy technical degrees and experience. I've always been able to work on my own cars, trucks and motorcycles. Now, in the last 5 years things are gettin' a little out of hand. I realized that when I bought my Prius and got a FSM for it. It's straining my abilities and in another 5 years I'll likely not be able to fix my own stuff.

Up to this point I find that I still can keep my head above water because I'm very good at logic and can logic out the problem if I don't have all the tools. That at least is like a Hot-Cold machine and gets me into the ballpark finding the problem. Then I can narrow it down.

I agree, the US is in the need of good, basic, safe, simple, easily maintained vehicles. But, would they buy it? After all we're in a "consumer" economy, not one striving to buy, wear it out, use it up, repair it and start all over again. Somehow, you've got to get off the consumer treadmill, be happy with what you've got, maintain it until it can't be maintained any more and then move on.

Too many in our society have lost the skills, or never had/developed them, to identify, buy dependable, sturdy stuff and know how to fix it. Life would be easier for them if they did.

 

[wornoutoldman]

tow it to my dealer and I will program it for a hundred bucks

How much does the dealer pay you for actually performing the work .3hrs?

 

[Lotek]

This is a huge problem. And the auto OEM's don't have a clue about the long term effects.

If they do it wrong, they will doom the resale value of their vehicles, which will eventually affect the new values.

Right now, there are some GM cars where the ECM won't turn the fuel pump on if the serialization isn't correct. You actually have to reprogram the computer in order to put a new fuel pump on. The systems to do these reprograms are very expensive - prohibitively expensive for an independent shop.

And another thing - just like your computer getting automatic upgrades - the OEM is able to send automatic upgrades via the service system. This is great if the upgrades are good for the customer - but what if they are bad for the customer, but good for the OEM? Say for example the OEM determines that the engine isn't warming up fast enough to heat up the catalyst and the emissions are running a bit shy. So they put out a program upgrade that turns up the idle to 1500 RPM for another minute on startup, and every time the catalyst cools down.

Now say the mechanic doesn't have a choice, they have to download the update. Now all the sudden the customer's vehicle runs different, and gets worse gas mileage, and the mechanic has no idea why. The mechanic now gets blamed for doing something wrong with the car.

Which GM vehicles need to be programmed if you replace the fuel pump? None I've ever heard of. If a software update to correct a problem will adversely affect another function in the vehicle, it is spelled out in the application notes that you go through before programming.

Auto repair is no longer a trade that you can go into because you can't do anything else, hasn't been for years, adapt or perish. The sooner the general public understands this, the better off all techs will be.

How much does the dealer pay you for actually performing the work .3hrs?

I usually get an hour for reprogramming, I have to double check someone else's work, verify the repair, and diagnose the problem if it doesn't fix it. Occasionally you end up in the middle of a ******* match, where the customer and "his" mechanic don't want to hear the real problem, then we are the evil dealer. Don't get me wrong, we have several local shops that bring us programming jobs occasionally, most have their ducks in a row, it isn't worth the money to them yet to invest in the tools and software to do it themselves, every once in a while though...

 

[strnjss]

It's getting more and more crazy with cars, but it's nothing new. My grandfathers old 87 BMW had a moon roof that needed to be 'reflashed' once because it didn't close right. Reflashed!!! It's something as simple as a motor, switch and a relay or two, they turned into a computer thing.

Mercedes at one point was developing a brake-by-wire system, which is even more crazy! I think they are actually implementing it too (I could be wrong), with a emergency hydraulic backup, but still....

There is no point to doing these things, except to monopolize repairs.

But you know what the real problem is? Consumers are completely ignorant of just about everything about their cars.

Most people's knowledge of their cars is basically gas=go, brake=stop, D=Drive, etc...

Car companies can make their systems as stupidly over complex as they want to and no one will know or care. They will buy the car anyway.

If most people would just gain a little knowledge, car companies would have no choice but to make their cars easy to repair if they wanted to sell any of them.

Hopefully there will always be at least one car company out there that puts out a decently repairable vehicle for us people who actually want to be able to work on our own cars. If not, we'll all have to start buying 20 year old cars from california, florida, and all those other places where cars don't rot, and hope there's enough left to go around.

 

[Displaced Hokie]

some chryslers to with the nag 1 trans no dipstick and yoy need the trans temp

And what ticks me off....the car is reading the trans temp but there is no way to pull it up in the display. Even the cars with the deluxe cluster where you can go into "diagnostic mode" won't pull up that one nugget of info. And without that, you can't properly refill the trans.

 

[kc-steve]

Interesting thread. It sounds like the automotive industry is following some other past failed industries. I used to be a manufacturers rep servicing dialysis machines in the 1980s. When I started there the company was at its peak with the most reliable dialysis machines on the market. It was transistor-to-transistor logic and easy to repair as well. Then they decided to move into the computer-controlled dialysis machine market. Their first machine was a complete disaster. Their second computer-controlled machine was a little better but it was unreliable though.

They went from an $8,000 machine to a $25,000 machine that was unreliable. They reasoned that it would reduce the hospital labor costs but last time I checked in the 1990's it still took one nurse to run 3 dialysis machines, in other words, they would have been better off with the old machines. That company eventually became a second-rate manufacturer that was bought up by a foreign company and I'm glad as hell I left back in the 1980's.

Steve