Running 200A service 800'

[Diesel Dan]

What options are there for feeding a building 240V/200A at a distance of 800' from meter?
Obviously voltage drop will be an issue.
Possible to use step up/down transformers?

Looking for ideas other than having POCO drop another pole/meter.
Voltage drop calculator shows raising voltage to 480/600V drops conductor cost a lot.
Found a 50KVA 240v-600v single phase step up transformer for $1500.
Seen some threads recommending doing 240-2400v but cost of conductors jumps and could only find smallest of 6 awg when calcs show only 12 awg needed.

 

[BreeStephany]

You could raise the voltage up across the circuit at the point of entrance and then step down at the building you are feeding, but it is important to remember when stepping up voltage over 600V, that you will need to use conductors with an insulation rating equal to or exceeding the voltage on the circuit.

Another option is to run parallel runs and to upsize the conductors to account for voltage drop. In this case, you will have to have a breaker or lugs that accept the size of conductor you are running and the number of parallel feeds.

Just my two cents.

 

[theoldwizard1]

200A is huge ! What are you powering ?

 

[Wrench97]

How far from the POCO transformer is your current service?

 

[Diesel Dan]

You could raise the voltage up across the circuit at the point of entrance and then step down at the building you are feeding, but it is important to remember when stepping up voltage over 600V, that you will need to use conductors with an insulation rating equal to or exceeding the voltage on the circuit.

Another option is to run parallel runs and to upsize the conductors to account for voltage drop. In this case, you will have to have a breaker or lugs that accept the size of conductor you are running and the number of parallel feeds.

Just my two cents.

Step up/down is exactly what I'm asking about.
Understand about the insulation rating. 2400v rated conductor is expensive and didn't see any in the gauge I would need.
Running larger parallel runs for lower voltage causes cost to exponentially jump surpassing the cost of transformers from what I found.

200A is huge ! What are you powering ?

Everything.
My current shop/house has a 400A service.

How far from the POCO transformer is your current service?

100-200ft, will be a new service

 

[Wrench97]

I'm sure I've seen services run farther then 1000' from the transformer, so what would make the difference from running it 800' from the meter?

 

[Diesel Dan]

I'm sure I've seen services run farther then 1000' from the transformer, so what would make the difference from running it 800' from the meter?

It's not likely you seen a 120/240v service 1000' from the transformer.
Size of the conductors would be huge to offset voltage drop.

Example, 240V, 100A, 1000' <3% V-drop would need 750 mcm and currently running about $34/ft
Providing my math is right.

 

[Stuart in MN]

A step up transformer could work; however, if this a residential service I'm not sure voltages higher than 240v are allowed (I don't get into the residential side of the NEC much). I'd check on that before proceeding.

I assume you're trying to save money, but in the end it may be worth having the utility extend their primary service closer. If nothing else, that would mean the wire over that 800 feet will be their responsibility to maintain and not yours.

 

[tarmy]

I am going thru the exact same issue. My main 400A panel is about 550’ from the new 200A panel being set. I have an existing 200A in my shop/garage and this 200A new service run to the house with a new 22 kw generator. I am actually not even going to ask how much the conductors will cost for all the long runs…

That way it will be too late for me to get all twisted up about the costs…the set up will be all done and working. The damn generator went up about 3 grand as well…

 

[u2slow]

Many properties in my area have long OH services. It's the Poco's 14kV or whatever strung on as many private poles as it takes, to a pole-mount transformer on the property. I sure it costs a bundle, but that's often how its done. The other format I see is a consumer drop to a well house or utility building near the property line; parallel runs are sometimes used after that instead of one huge feeder.

I'm actually not sure who takes care of the primary-line maintenance & repair on private property - whether the Poco does it on their nickel, or you get billed for every event/incident.

 

[Wrench97]

Many properties in my area have long OH services. It's the Poco's 14kV or whatever strung on as many private poles as it takes, to a pole-mount transformer on the property. I sure it costs a bundle, but that's often how its done. The other format I see is a consumer drop to a well house or utility building near the property line; parallel runs are sometimes used after that instead of one huge feeder.

I'm actually not sure who takes care of the primary-line maintenance & repair on private property - whether the Poco does it on their nickel, or you get billed for every event/incident.

We had a 1/4 mile long driveway when I was a kid, POCO was responsible to the first pole in which in our case was where the transformer was located, after that it's on you.

 

[u2slow]

We had a 1/4 mile long driveway when I was a kid, POCO was responsible to the first pole in which in our case was where the transformer was located, after that it's on you.

I'm seeing 3-6 private poles and the transformer on the last. I don't know who's responsible for what, but I'm sure the Poco will let you know

 

[Wrench97]

If the transformer is past the first pole it's yours

 

[fitter30]

Voltage drop calculator

Voltage Drop Calculator

Calculate voltage drop in AC or DC circuits, plus learn the formulas to calculate voltage drop for single-phase and three-phase systems.

www.inchcalculator.com

 

[alfredeneuman]

Found a 50KVA 240v-600v single phase step up transformer for $1500.

In addition to the 2 transformers, you'll need disconnects on both the primary and secondary side of both (600V disconnects cost $$$), and a grounding system.

 

[u2slow]

Just playing with the v-drop calculator... would probably look at parallel sets of 500kcmil (Al). Comes in less than 3% drop. (assuming buried cable/conduit).

Valid point earlier about whether anything over 150V-to-ground is allowed to be installed on a residential premises.

EDIT: Using overhead conductors, could do parallels with significantly smaller conductors.

 

[wyliesdiesels]

A step up transformer could work; however, if this a residential service I'm not sure voltages higher than 240v are allowed (I don't get into the residential side of the NEC much). I'd check on that before proceeding.

I assume you're trying to save money, but in the end it may be worth having the utility extend their primary service closer. If nothing else, that would mean the wire over that 800 feet will be their responsibility to maintain and not yours.

The NEC has no prohibition on higher voltage outside the residence. using transformers for the service entrance wont be a problem

 

[Diesel Dan]

I assume you're trying to save money, but in the end it may be worth having the utility extend their primary service closer. If nothing else, that would mean the wire over that 800 feet will be their responsibility to maintain and not yours.

No option will be cheap.
Trying to keep POCO off as much property as possible.

Many properties in my area have long OH services. It's the Poco's 14kV or whatever strung on as many private poles as it takes, to a pole-mount transformer on the property. I sure it costs a bundle, but that's often how its done. The other format I see is a consumer drop to a well house or utility building near the property line; parallel runs are sometimes used after that instead of one huge feeder.

I'm actually not sure who takes care of the primary-line maintenance & repair on private property - whether the Poco does it on their nickel, or you get billed for every event/incident.

POCO will supply 2 poles, after that all your cost.
POCO requires legal easement drawn up for 40' right away which limits what you can to with the property in that easement. Owner responsible for clearing 40' ground-sky right of way and maintenance.

Voltage drop calculator

Voltage Drop Calculator

Calculate voltage drop in AC or DC circuits, plus learn the formulas to calculate voltage drop for single-phase and three-phase systems.

www.inchcalculator.com

Using this one:

Voltage Drop Calculator | Southwire

www.southwire.com

 

[Diesel Dan]

Just playing with the v-drop calculator... would probably look at parallel sets of 500kcmil (Al). Comes in less than 3% drop. (assuming buried cable/conduit).

Valid point earlier about whether anything over 150V-to-ground is allowed to be installed on a residential premises.

EDIT: Using overhead conductors, could do parallels with significantly smaller conductors.

Price out 4,800' of 500kcmil(al).

 

[u2slow]

Price out 4,800' of 500kcmil(al).

Heh, ya. $22k or so. (~$15/meter). Plus conduit and trenching.

In my experience, nobody wants to go aerial until they run the $$$.

 

[mcbane]

Heh, ya. $22k or so. (~$15/meter). Plus conduit and trenching.

In my experience, nobody wants to go aerial until they run the $$$.

Should be less than $14K. You need to avoid Home Depot for large cable purchases. But still not “cheap”.

 

[walrus]

I've never done it but in Maine you can run primary under ground, special cable, looks kind of like coaxial, and then pad mount transformer near home. Not sure on right of way concerns with this. Generally I see it done with multiple conduits and one is generally empty. Future use?

1/0 Stranded Aluminum Conductor 25KV URD - Full Neutral 100%

Specifications : Conductor Size (AWG/kcm) : 1/0 STR, Insulation Thickness (mils) : 260, Conductor Diameter (inches) : 0.364, Insulation Diameter (inches) : 0.93, Insulation Shield Diameter (inches) : 1.00, Overall Jacket Diameter (inches) : 1.24, Net Weight (lbs./kft.) : 741. Standards : ASTM...

nassaunationalcable.com

 

[mike93lx]

No option will be cheap.
Trying to keep POCO off as much property as possible.

POCO will supply 2 poles, after that all your cost.
POCO requires legal easement drawn up for 40' right away which limits what you can to with the property in that easement. Owner responsible for clearing 40' ground-sky right of way and maintenance.

Using this one:

Voltage Drop Calculator | Southwire

www.southwire.com

I believe I have seen others comment that southwire's calculator is wrong. I'd check the calcs against another

 

[Thorold]

Just playing with the v-drop calculator... would probably look at parallel sets of 500kcmil (Al). Comes in less than 3% drop. (assuming buried cable/conduit).

Valid point earlier about whether anything over 150V-to-ground is allowed to be installed on a residential premises.

EDIT: Using overhead conductors, could do parallels with significantly smaller conductors.

And wouldn't that 3% loss only apply at 200A draw ? Most likely the draw will be much lower.

 

[Diesel Dan]

Should be less than $14K. You need to avoid Home Depot for large cable purchases. But still not “cheap”.

Using Homedepot pricing of $2.61/ft for 1/0 Black Stranded XHHW Wire cost to cover 800' run at <$6,300.
Not sure local supply houses will meet that. Did get good results running up to Nashville for my mini split components though.
Cost of conduit drops dramatically with smaller conductors too.

 

[wyliesdiesels]

No option will be cheap.
Trying to keep POCO off as much property as possible.

POCO will supply 2 poles, after that all your cost.
POCO requires legal easement drawn up for 40' right away which limits what you can to with the property in that easement. Owner responsible for clearing 40' ground-sky right of way and maintenance.

Using this one:

Voltage Drop Calculator | Southwire

www.southwire.com

Set meter at the road or near it then run your own aerial on poles you set. no easement problems then since you own the poles.

also the southwire VD calculator is not a good one to use

 

[billconner]

Sorry of I missed this but is one of the goals to be on same service as existing building, same meter, so you're only paying service cost once? Which makes sense - but would seem to complicate the power company doing it.

Knowing if there are several significant loads - like a electric water heater or a welder or ceramic kiln - might might make multiple feeds with correct size buck and boost transformers work and be more economical. Knowing likely max load would help too. Designing for voltage drop on 200 amp load seems extreme and chance of loading up 200 amps seems remote.

 

[Diesel Dan]

Set meter at the road or near it then run your own aerial on poles you set. no easement problems then since you own the poles.

also the southwire VD calculator is not a good one to use

Will use a different VD calculator. Is the one fitter30 listed ok?

Would you run a 600v step up/down or just push the 240 all the way?
If 240v/200a it's looking like 1000 mcm for AL or 600 mcm for CU.
600v puts copper at 1/0. Does that sound correct?
Seen 4/0 AL triplex for ~$3.51/ft and good for 600v.

Sorry of I missed this but is one of the goals to be on same service as existing building, same meter, so you're only paying service cost once? Which makes sense - but would seem to complicate the power company doing it.

Knowing if there are several significant loads - like a electric water heater or a welder or ceramic kiln - might might make multiple feeds with correct size buck and boost transformers work and be more economical. Knowing likely max load would help too. Designing for voltage drop on 200 amp load seems extreme and chance of loading up 200 amps seems remote.

You're fine, I never went into the details.
It'll be new construction, living quarters and shop(s). I've already downsized from what my current shouse has (400A). The thread isn't about determining load, just getting the power there. There will be no cheap/easy way to power where we are looking at building, even solar is/was a option. I have the equipment to do most of what needs to be done, SVL-95 skidsteer, U45 mini EX, 42hp CUT etc.

 

[mike93lx]

Are you really even considering copper for this? That is nuts

 

[fitter30]

Other cost other than wire and conduit is all tools and lube the to pull the wire. Pvc conduit prices are crazy.

 

[mike93lx]

Should be less than $14K. You need to avoid Home Depot for large cable purchases. But still not “cheap”.

At that qty, you need to talk to the pro desk. I bet they will beat whatever you get quoted at a supply house

 

[u2slow]

Should be less than $14K. You need to avoid Home Depot for large cable purchases. But still not “cheap”.

$15/m was an online supply house price. Home Depot doesn't carry anything that large, or aluminum, in my experience.

Seen 4/0 AL triplex for ~$3.51/ft and good for 600v.

I'm pretty sure #4/0 triplex is what my folks had installed for their 400A service - parallel runs. 4 poles I think. A pole for your private service at 120/240V doesn't need to meet the same specs as a medium-voltage utility pole. Height can be reduced if driveway not under the triplex.

 

[wyliesdiesels]

If you run aerial “free-air” conductors the ampacities are different and thus are reduced sizes.

Find a contractor to set the poles

 

[reader2580]

Consider if you really want overhead service if you have trees that could knock out service.

A local youth camp for some reason the power company owns most of the lines within the camp. Outages were frequent. The power company buried all of the lines a few years ago. I don’t know if the youth camp had to pay any of the cost. The camp is way off the beaten path so I was shocked they switched to underground.

 

[haveissues]

POCO will supply 2 poles, after that all your cost.
POCO requires legal easement drawn up for 40' right away which limits what you can to with the property in that easement. Owner responsible for clearing 40' ground-sky right of way and maintenance.

Direct bury a primary line and a pad mount transformer at your building. I have a 7kv line underground at my house and it is about 2 ft from the edge of my driveway, no easement needed here but I know every power company does things differently. I own the primary line, transformer pad, etc and the powco owns the transformer. Everything is my responsibility other than the transformer.

 

[Diesel Dan]

If you run aerial “free-air” conductors the ampacities are different and thus are reduced sizes.

Find a contractor to set the poles

I'll try to find some load calculators for overhead.

Why do you say find a contractor to set poles?

Consider if you really want overhead service if you have trees that could knock out service.

28 acres of trees, lol.

Direct bury a primary line and a pad mount transformer at your building. I have a 7kv line underground at my house and it is about 2 ft from the edge of my driveway, no easement needed here but I know every power company does things differently. I own the primary line, transformer pad, etc and the powco owns the transformer. Everything is my responsibility other than the transformer.

POCO still wants legal easement written up for buried primary. I'm responsible for the trench, conduit, pull boxes, pull rope. Then they charge $20-22/ft for the conductors including labor. Not sure of the ROW I'd need to clear either. Going this route is easy $20k.

 

[haveissues]

Running your wire overhead might allow the cable to have an higher ampacity but that isn't going to help you with voltage drop. Parallel runs of 500-500-350 direct burial are probably your cheapest way out if you dig the trench yourself and will really have a 200 amp load at the other end.

 

[Diesel Dan]

Running your wire overhead might allow the cable to have an higher ampacity but that isn't going to help you with voltage drop. Parallel runs of 500-500-350 direct burial are probably your cheapest way out if you dig the trench yourself and will really have a 200 amp load at the other end.

Technically I believe I'd need a 500-500-500-350 since it will be a sub panel at the structure.
There will need to be a disconnect at the meter.

 

[dscheidt]

$15/m was an online supply house price. Home Depot doesn't carry anything that large, or aluminum, in my experience.

HD can get anything your supply house can. Talk to the pro desk manager, bring a printed list.

 

[haveissues]

Technically I believe I'd need a 500-500-500-350 since it will be a sub panel at the structure.
There will need to be a disconnect at the meter

If your other service has a disconnect at the meter than yes, you will need a ground but I believe the ground should be a #4 and I think you only need one of those. It is sized for the breaker protecting the line, not the size of the wire as far as I know. I ran my service with a 4/0, 4/0, 2/0 and a separate direct burial rated #4 since it was cheaper that way.