Running 200A service 800'

[Diesel Dan]

If your other service has a disconnect at the meter than yes, you will need a ground but I believe the ground should be a #4 and I think you only need one of those. It is sized for the breaker protecting the line, not the size of the wire as far as I know. I ran my service with a 4/0, 4/0, 2/0 and a separate direct burial rated #4 since it was cheaper that way.

If the meter is not connected to the structure it needs a disconnect.
Is what you are saying in running a 500-500-350-#4 we are not worried about voltage drop on the common?
On my current (no pun intended) house my main panels are feed from disconnects at the meter which is remote mounted on a H-frame. Since they are technically now sub panels the feed is copper 3/0-3/0-3/0-bare #4.
It's a 400A service feeding 2-200A panels.

 

[mike93lx]

If the meter is not connected to the structure it needs a disconnect.
Is what you are saying in running a 500-500-350-#4 we are not worried about voltage drop on the common?
On my current (no pun intended) house my main panels are feed from disconnects at the meter which is remote mounted on a H-frame. Since they are technically now sub panels the feed is copper 3/0-3/0-3/0-bare #4.
It's a 400A service feeding 2-200A panels.

The neutral is only carrying current when there is an imbalanced load (120v), which is often not a huge concern, AFAIK.

 

[Diesel Dan]

The neutral is only carrying current when there is an imbalanced load (120v), which is often not a huge concern, AFAIK.

Back in 2016 the inspector wanted the neutral sized the same as current carrying conductors.

 

[mike93lx]

The inspector can want all they want.

What's code and any local written amendments?

 

[jeepxj]

Do you REALLY need 200a there? is it just a single man generic shop building?

 

[wyliesdiesels]

Maybe i missed this but has a load calc been done?

 

[Diesel Dan]

Do you REALLY need 200a there? is it just a single man generic shop building?

Maybe i missed this but has a load calc been done?

The what and why was never discussed in the original post, for a reason.
There are plenty of posts about load calcs, service feed sizing etc.

Main intent was to look at options of feeding power from point A-B.

So to derail the thread further:
-New construction
-POCO offers 100,200 and 400A services.
-it is a co-op POCO on top of that so has it's own rules on top of regular muni's
-will be feeding multiple structures, house, garage, shop, greenhouse, animial buildings 50A RV plug(s).

There is NO easy way to get power to the proposed build site. Period.
Onsite meeting with poco rep is still weeks out. Trying to find as many options prior to that. In previous emails looking at options they already shot down what I determined would be one of the easier, less intrusive options for neighbors and myself.

Load calcs, let use my current 40x72 shouse.
-3 on demand water heaters, 27kw, 13kw, 9kw
-2 dual zone mini splits with heat
-dishwasher with heating element
-multiple welders in shop to choose from
-10k lift, 240V
-240V air compressor
-diesels with block heaters
-heater in green house
-water bowl heaters for animals

For good idea of peak usage consider colder holidays. Multiple people over, one RV hooked up with electric heat, all water heaters going, dishwasher going, wife has oil heater(s) in green house on, animal bowls warming. Out in shop, BIL and I working on project on lift, grinding and welding away. That's not counting crock pot, mixer and nieces doing their hair. Let's not forget the very real possibility in the near future of a level 2 car charger.

So MAJORITY of time I won't need 200A. However, I'm not designing for majority.

Even considering off grid solar.
Buy 8500W inverter, small solar array and batteries to start when living out of camper. Eventually expand grid and battery capacity and a second 8500W inverter if need be.

 

[jeepxj]

You're listing all the stuff on the service. What is going to be in the out building 900' away.

just because you have 50 welders to pick from you're not going to be running a production shop. you're looking at 3-4 loads from the shop at a time. welder, lift, AC, water heater kinda stuff.

If you want to run it all at once by all means. but then you're gona pay. I think if you looked realistically at your use you'd be well under 200a.

You got a map/mspaint of the planned building locations/farm buildings/water bowl heaters?

 

[Diesel Dan]

You're listing all the stuff on the service. What is going to be in the out building 900' away.

-New construction

-will be feeding multiple structures, house, garage, shop, greenhouse, animial buildings 50A RV plug(s).

Trying to keep the thread on topic and simplify things by keeping the opening post short and concise
Utility pole, can, drop, under ground feed to meter base.
900' later a 200A main panel.

Looking for options to span the distance with VD <3%.

Does it really matter if it's for 1242 sqft of grow house, inflatable prophylactic testing facility or bitcoin mining?

 

[mike93lx]

The questions are well intended, but can be frustrating

 

[jeepxj]

Trying to keep the thread on topic and simplify things by keeping the opening post short and concise
Utility pole, can, drop, under ground feed to meter base.
900' later a 200A main panel.

Looking for options to span the distance with VD <3%.

Does it really matter if it's for 1242 sqft of grow house, inflatable prophylactic testing facility or bitcoin mining?

it just clicked. basically the entire farm yard is gona be fed off this circuit away from the meter location. apologies.

 

[dcg9381]

What options are there for feeding a building 240V/200A at a distance of 800' from meter?
Obviously voltage drop will be an issue.
Possible to use step up/down transformers?
Looking for ideas other than having POCO drop another pole/meter.

Around here, the POCO would have you set a transformer box closer to the house. I don't know if it's the pole itself you're objecting to, the POCO could likely do undergound, but you're still in for another meter box. Here, I believe they bring in 15KV to the transformer, then you step down from that to the meter.

Likely the POCO can give you "options" here - but they likely all involve extending service. With what you're powering, you may want more than 200A anyway. There is no easy or cheap way to do what you want to do. IMHO, best way to get 200A+ to where you want it will be to extend a high voltage line.

 

[Diesel Dan]

Around here, the POCO would have you set a transformer box closer to the house. I don't know if it's the pole itself you're objecting to,nnot the pole but the 40' legal easement and clearing required. the POCO could likely do undergound, but you're still in for another meter box. Here, I believe they bring in 15KV to the transformer, then you step down from that to the meter.POCO will do under ground, still requires legal easement. I pay for trench, conduit, pull boxes and pull rope. The POCO charges $18-20/ft for them to pull conductors.

Likely the POCO can give you "options" here - already exhausted a couple of the easier options with poco via email/satellite photos. Onsite visit few weeks out yet.

 

[Diesel Dan]

One issue many other may not have to deal with is tapping into the high voltage line.
Around here, the lines do not run along the road ROW. They go cross country as the crow flies on private property. The POCO has no authority to force someone to allow you to hook up. So it's possible that there may be a spot to connect ~400' but the property owner will not give you easement and then you need to hook up from 1/4 mile away and now responsible for all those poles.

 

[Diesel Dan]

The questions are well intended, but can be frustrating

However, at the end of the day all I'm looking for is ways to cover a distance of ~800', after the meter/disconnect.
Be it aerial with parallel MHF, dual transformers 600 or 2400v, or???

 

[mike93lx]

However, at the end of the day all I'm looking for is ways to cover a distance of ~800', after the meter/disconnect.
Be it aerial with parallel MHF, dual transformers 600 or 2400v, or???

I get it. Lots of opinions and options discussed here.

You have a very non standard situation and shouldn't be surprised that the answer isn't clear.

 

[PCustoms]

You got a plot layout with the proposed shop location and existing lines?

My lot is a lot like yours (though smaller, lol). I've got a POCO line over the backside of the property meandering through the woods and over what might as well be a cliff. A few years back I was trying to get them to move everything to the main road, abandon the easement and then feed several houses from where they can get a bucket truck.

One of my issues was the new easement require for my feed. They were willing to work with me on wording, I didn't push it too hard as they were footing the bill as it was a "reliability improvement" for all of us involved.

It fell apart with 2020....

 

[PCustoms]

Also why does the meter/disconnect need to be at the head of the line?

Several of my options included a pole mount transformer at the road, and a meter at the house.

I was just shy of 450' btw. Seems the PoCo figures VD different then normal...

 

[u2slow]

What if you let the POCO do the 2 pole deal (their cost) on the 14kV side? How many feet does that shave off the 800'?

Then do your own poles for the rest with a one feed of heavy triplex to the building. Use it to its reduced capacity. Then when your needs increase, string up a 2nd run (parallel) on the same poles.

As they say... Rome wasn't built in a day.

 

[Diesel Dan]

I get it. Lots of opinions and options discussed here.

You have a very non standard situation and shouldn't be surprised that the answer isn't clear.

Yes, non standard and that's why I tried to keep it simple.
For me it seemed pretty clear, point to point power options.

You got a plot layout with the proposed shop location and existing lines?

I'll see if I can draw something up.

Also why does the meter/disconnect need to be at the head of the line?

Trying to limit the impact of the POCO on the property.

 

[u3b3rg33k]

that 50kW of instant electric hot water makes me think you've spec'd the wrong hot water heaters. huge ampacity reduction by swapping those out for 4kW resistive tank (208A vs 48A) or HPWH.

We've got a 500' or so run of buried copper from the pole - we've got two transformers to serve just us, one per meter. same size transformer you'd see a few houses on in a subdivision. farm in the middle of nowhere. meter at the building, so issues before the meter are POCO problems, not my problems. I think it's 000 copper.

 

[Diesel Dan]

What if you let the POCO do the 2 pole deal (their cost) on the 14kV side? How many feet does that shave off the 800'?

The 800 includes using at least one pole. Part of the 2 pole deal is just getting to my property.
Every time they make a turn, add a pole.

 

[Diesel Dan]

that 50kW of instant electric hot water makes me think you've spec'd the wrong hot water heaters. huge ampacity reduction by swapping those out for 4kW resistive tank (208A vs 48A) or HPWH.

That is in the current house that has a 400A feed.
I've already designed down from that and want 200A to the new build site.

 

[Diesel Dan]

We've got a 500' or so run of buried copper from the pole - we've got two transformers to serve just us, one per meter. same size transformer you'd see a few houses on in a subdivision. farm in the middle of nowhere. meter at the building, so issues before the meter are POCO problems, not my problems. I think it's 000 copper.

They'd be willing to do that but includes filing a legal easement and meeting their requirement for clearing the ROW. Cost off the top my head would be $25K+ to start.

 

[jeepxj]

However, at the end of the day all I'm looking for is ways to cover a distance of ~800', after the meter/disconnect.
Be it aerial with parallel MHF, dual transformers 600 or 2400v, or???

is there a big cost difference on transformers jumping from 600v to 2400v high side?

 

[wyliesdiesels]

Im still throwing my hat at a pair of 240x480v transformers, with an overhead run of 4-wire free air conductors on your own poles

youre not gonna see a huge savings in wire size reduction going with 600v transformers.

while 480v is not DIY for most, going to medium voltage (600v) or even 2400v means you should be hiring it out which will just add to the cost... and a huge cost it would be to hire a medium voltage electrician

 

[jeepxj]

so either 480 or go big boy 2400? 600 isn't much gain over 480 but incurs the medium voltage electrician rate.

 

[Diesel Dan]

Our son is a journeyman lineman with IBEW and I work with some industrial electrians too. They have no issues working on it just not familiar with spec'ing it out.

 

[wyliesdiesels]

well if they do medium voltage then there ya go. but im guessing the transformers arent cheap...nor the conductors

 

[Diesel Dan]

well if they do medium voltage then there ya go. but im guessing the transformers arent cheap...nor the conductors

I did find single phase 240-600v, 50kva transformers for $1500 each but don't recall if out door rated. Then parasitic draw needs to be figured in.

Transformers and over head triplex Quadruplex is definitely a consideration. Most conductors seem to have 600v insulation.

 

[wyliesdiesels]

deleted..

 

[Diesel Dan]

Im still throwing my hat at a pair of 240x480v transformers, with an overhead run of 4-wire free air conductors on your own poles

youre not gonna see a huge savings in wire size reduction going with 600v transformers.

while 480v is not DIY for most, going to medium voltage (600v) or even 2400v means you should be hiring it out which will just add to the cost... and a huge cost it would be to hire a medium voltage electrician

While talking with some electricians another couple ideas came up.
--while on the smaller side run aerial 500 mcm AL Quadruplex at 240V and a AVS (automatic voltage stabilizer) for motor load surges. He heard about the AVS but never used one.
--See if the POCO will drop single phase 480V to the meter base. Then a 480-240 transformer. It's possible since there are residential garages with 3 phase 480V.

 

[Diesel Dan]

Emailed the poco to see if I can get a 240-480v can.
Checked with our son to make sure that type of transformer exists.
He checked their yard and had around a dozen single phase 240-480 cans of various kva ratings.

 

[Diesel Dan]

If the poco would drop a 480 can then I could use direct burial/aerial rated 350 mcm quad for up to 1150'.
Wouldn't mind checking into one of those AVS units and see if it can work as a step down transformer as well as voltage conditioner.

Talking with a neighbor about the poco easement.
Have to be careful when granting it. For example, if they extend 50' into your property you need a 40' wide clear path. However they try to get a general easement for ALL your property. If another neighbor wants power, you can't stop them. Once a potentially new line is run with another 40' path, you can't build under it.

 

[mike93lx]

I would be doing the same to avoid an easement on my property. It might cost some cash, but I think it's smart in the long run

 

[Bert_]

I did find single phase 240-600v, 50kva transformers for $1500 each but don't recall if out door rated. Then parasitic draw needs to be figured in.

Transformers and over head triplex Quadruplex is definitely a consideration. Most conductors seem to have 600v insulation.

You don't need 4 wires between transformers. No need for a neutral there. The transformer at the building creates the neutral.

 

[Bert_]

Running primary is really the better answer.

Would they pull their primary through a customer installed conduit?

 

[Diesel Dan]

Running primary is really the better answer.
But is it.....really the BETTER answer?
Would they pull their primary through a customer installed conduit? Yes.

 

[86turbodsl]

My shop is 200A at 300' from the house. the wire is 4/0 aluminum. You are going to spend a fortune doing this.

 

[billconner]

Diesel Dan - perhaps I've missed it but:
Is it a priority to maintain existing 400 amp service and for this new panel to be on same meter?
Is it a priority to not give POCO an easement and right of way?
Just seems like these criteria eliminate a lot of designs.