Running 200A service 800'

[Diesel Dan]

Diesel Dan - perhaps I've missed it but:
Is it a priority to maintain existing 400 amp service and for this new panel to be on same meter?
Is it a priority to not give POCO an easement and right of way?
Just seems like these criteria eliminate a lot of designs.

Please read post #47.
Should cover it.

 

[billconner]

Thanks. I thought existing building was on same site and this was a branch, maybe existing loads are just for reference and this is new stand alone.

 

[Knight511]

...

 

[wyliesdiesels]

Emailed the poco to see if I can get a 240-480v can.
Checked with our son to make sure that type of transformer exists.
He checked their yard and had around a dozen single phase 240-480 cans of various kva ratings.

why would you ask the PoCo about a 240x480 transformer?

they wouldnt be installing such a transformer. they would be installing a high voltage primary to 480v secondary transformer....

 

[Diesel Dan]

why would you ask the PoCo about a 240x480 transformer?

they wouldnt be installing such a transformer. they would be installing a high voltage primary to 480v secondary transformer....

Maybe I'm using the wrong terminology?
This is what I was requesting:
7200V high, 240/480V low

 

[wyliesdiesels]

Youre muddying the waters and making it confusing by asking in that manner.

The high side/primary might not be 7.2KV The primary voltage rating is not even your concern. The PoCo will determine what high side voltage rating they need on the transformer(s)..

Also the transformer wouldnt be rated 480v/240v. throwing 240v in just adds to the confusion. Because PoCos dont deliver a 4-wire 480v/240v delta service. There is no need for the 4th wire as nothing runs on 240v line to neutral. Instead it would be Straight 480v 3-wire and thus wouldn't have a secondary line to neutral voltage. so its just called 480v or 480v Delta.

If you were to get 480v service, it would either be ungrounded 3-wire 480v delta (a rare beast not offered by most PoCos anymore; i only see it on existing ag pump stations) or corner grounded 3-wire 480v Delta (an even rarer beast; ive only seen a few here in town and theyre old and existing).

I highly doubt you would even want an ungrounded service(lots of issues with it) or corner grounded service or that your PoCo would even deliver either of those, especially to a residential property. All kinds of issues and you would have to setup ground fault monitoring for the ungrounded type, which means 3 industrial lights wired in Y across the 3 phases. When one phase goes to ground, the applicable light shuts off and the other 2 get brighter. You have to find the fault before another phase goes to ground otherwise you will have a huge boom and fire!

This either type of 480v Delta requires properly trained personnel and expensive straight rated breakers, panels etc

More than likey your PoCo would be giving you 4-wire 480Y/277v service which has a grounded neutral and THAT is what i would ask for. Keep the request simple.

 

[wyliesdiesels]

BTW the transformer you pictured is a single phase 3-wire can. It could be used for Y service but would have to be connected to 2 more cans in y on secondary side.

Small Y services fed by pole transformer will have 1 can with 3 primary bushings and 4 secondary bushings. H1 H2 H3 on high side and X1 X2 X3 X4 on low side

 

[Bert_]

Youre muddying the waters and making it confusing by asking in that manner.

The high side/primary might not be 7.2KV The primary voltage rating is not even your concern. The PoCo will determine what high side voltage rating they need on the transformer(s)..

Also the transformer wouldnt be rated 480v/240v. throwing 240v in just adds to the confusion. Because PoCos dont deliver a 4-wire 480v/240v delta service. There is no need for the 4th wire as nothing runs on 240v line to neutral. Instead it would be Straight 480v 3-wire and thus wouldn't have a secondary line to neutral voltage. so its just called 480v or 480v Delta.

If you were to get 480v service, it would either be ungrounded 3-wire 480v delta (a rare beast not offered by most PoCos anymore; i only see it on existing ag pump stations) or corner grounded 3-wire 480v Delta (an even rarer beast; ive only seen a few here in town and theyre old and existing).

I highly doubt you would even want an ungrounded service(lots of issues with it) or corner grounded service or that your PoCo would even deliver either of those, especially to a residential property. All kinds of issues and you would have to setup ground fault monitoring for the ungrounded type, which means 3 industrial lights wired in Y across the 3 phases. When one phase goes to ground, the applicable light shuts off and the other 2 get brighter. You have to find the fault before another phase goes to ground otherwise you will have a huge boom and fire!

This either type of 480v Delta requires properly trained personnel and expensive straight rated breakers, panels etc

More than likey your PoCo would be giving you 4-wire 480Y/277v service which has a grounded neutral and THAT is what i would ask for. Keep the request simple.

You really aren't helping with the confusion...

He wants 480v single phase. No reason to discuss three phase. It would mean he wouldn't need a step up. I imagine the pictured transformer is 480 with a center tap, that's were the 240v comes from. Not uncommon for a pole mount transformer, usually in a bank but doesn't have to be.

 

[Stuart in MN]

Yes, he's talking about 480vac single phase. It is a thing, although not all utilities will offer it for residential services.

 

[wyliesdiesels]

You really aren't helping with the confusion...

He wants 480v single phase. No reason to discuss three phase. It would mean he wouldn't need a step up. I imagine the pictured transformer is 480 with a center tap, that's were the 240v comes from. Not uncommon for a pole mount transformer, usually in a bank but doesn't have to be.

I've dealt with many utilities and not one of them offers such a beast so... good luck with that one...

 

[wyliesdiesels]

You really aren't helping with the confusion...

He wants 480v single phase. No reason to discuss three phase. It would mean he wouldn't need a step up. I imagine the pictured transformer is 480 with a center tap, that's were the 240v comes from. Not uncommon for a pole mount transformer, usually in a bank but doesn't have to be.

just read through OP's PoCo's "greenbook"

they dont have 480v single phase listed on pg 12 so he's SOL

https://cpws.com/wp-content/uploads/2020/12/CPWS_Electrical_Service_Practices_Requirements.pdf

 

[Bert_]

I've dealt with many utilities and not one of them offers such a beast so... good luck with that one...

I've done a few. Usually if we want pad mount it's a special order transformer but it's available. Overhead is no big deal.

Agree that some utilities may not be willing to do it. I've never seen it listed in a service book but you can always ask.

 

[Stuart in MN]

A couple of the utilities in my area have 480vac single phase service listed as available in their green book, but I agree it's not common and not all utilities are willing to provide it. In my career I only remember using it once or twice for some oddball commercial projects, but I've seen it used for some agricultural jobs as well.

 

[Diesel Dan]

just read through OP's PoCo's "greenbook"

they dont have 480v single phase listed on pg 12 so he's SOL

https://cpws.com/wp-content/uploads/2020/12/CPWS_Electrical_Service_Practices_Requirements.pdf

Not my POCO but they do list the same voltages.
There is however this paragraph that I'm going to appeal with:

D. Non-Standard Service – Extension requests of a non-standard service nature will require conferring in advance with the Cooperative regarding the form and type of service needed. Before the applicant proceeds with the purchase of equipment or wiring in such cases, said applicant should contact the Cooperative. The Cooperative will furnish information in writing on the character of service available, location of the Cooperative’s power lines, and the Cooperative’s ability to meet special requirements. Nothing herein contained shall obligate the Cooperative to provide such special service

Plan on building a business case showing that installing said 1PH/480V transformer on edge of my property and all secondary being my responsibility will be more cost effective in the long run than cutting in 1,000' of primary. The poco will be on the hook for all future maintenance of that primary extension.

Also, this can all change for unknown reasons when the field rep shows up.
He could shoot down plans A & C for where we can access power and say only location B they are willing to work with.

 

[theoldwizard1]

Have them install a separate meter on the building. Agricultural buildings usually.get a lower rate then residences.

 

[wyliesdiesels]

Not my POCO but they do list the same voltages.
There is however this paragraph that I'm going to appeal with:


Plan on building a business case showing that installing said 1PH/480V transformer on edge of my property and all secondary being my responsibility will be more cost effective in the long run than cutting in 1,000' of primary. The poco will be on the hook for all future maintenance of that primary extension.

Also, this can all change for unknown reasons when the field rep shows up.
He could shoot down plans A & C for where we can access power and say only location B they are willing to work with.

Who is your PoCo?

 

[Diesel Dan]

Looking for ideas other than having POCO drop another pole/meter.

Have them install a separate meter on the building. Agricultural buildings usually.get a lower rate then residences.

Not what I'm asking about. See above from post #1

Who is your PoCo?

Duck River Electric Membership Corporation | An Electric Cooperative

We are a cooperative of community-focused citizens with the goal of providing central station electric power to rural areas that previously were un-served.

www.dremc.com