running ground wire to water pipe?

[lilcuda]

Most of the outlets in my house (built in 1966) are not grounded. I have one in particular that my entertainment center is plugged into. I have a Tripp Lite Isobar plugged into that outlet that my subwoofers are plugged into. The Isobar buzzes when there is power applied. If I disconnect the coax to my cable box, the red light comes on the Isobar telling me that there is a ground fault.

Anyway, I called an electrician and he said he can run a ground wire to the water pipe to ground the outlet. Is that code? It sounded sketchy to me. Also, only half of the house has been re-piped, so the other half will be done at some point in the future, which would affect the grounding.

What's the right way to do this? I'm an noob when it comes to electrical.

Thanks!

 

[Richard Cranium]

As you probably know the plumbing needs to be metal and grounded it self.
my electrical box is also grounded to my plumbing or maybe it is my plumbing is grounded to my breaker box, Being that my box has two out side ground rods.

 

[nh_yota]

A ground wire theoretically shouldn't have any current on it under normal circumstances - it's there for protection. If you have stray current on the coax you should figure out where it's coming from.

 

[txvwnut]

Grounding to the water piping was common practice with old pier and beam houses or at least it/was the norm in my area. If your domestic piping is underground then it really isn't a bad thing. The only concern I have is with the galvanizing making a good bond with the ground conductor.

 

[brownbagg]

grounding to water pipe is still code, to keep shocks from touching sink plumbing

 

[Rookie2]

The cable company grounds their incoming drop for lightning protection. I'll bet that the coax shield is supplying the false ground.

Copper water pipes should be grounded and a loop around the water meter is required .

 

[theoldwizard1]

The BEST solution is replace that one outlet with a GFCI. You can plug a 3 prong cord in directly, even though there is no ground. GFCI's even com with a sticker that say "Not Grounded".

It is totally safe and code legal, because GFCIs protect against any small amount of leakage current.

 

[Ole Slewfoot]

There is a drawback if you house has a neutral fault, and is connected by metal plumbing to the neighbors, You can create a deadly hazard at their box.

 

[lilcuda]

So what do you all think is causing the buzzing?

 

[justsam]

I am not sure what NEC code cycle your area was on, but EGC, (ground) was required in 1962. Your home was built in 1966.

Are you sure that the wiring does not include ground and perhaps someone has replaced with non grounded receptacles?

 

[wyliesdiesels]

Most of the outlets in my house (built in 1966) are not grounded. I have one in particular that my entertainment center is plugged into. I have a Tripp Lite Isobar plugged into that outlet that my subwoofers are plugged into. The Isobar buzzes when there is power applied. If I disconnect the coax to my cable box, the red light comes on the Isobar telling me that there is a ground fault.

Anyway, I called an electrician and he said he can run a ground wire to the water pipe to ground the outlet. Is that code? It sounded sketchy to me. Also, only half of the house has been re-piped, so the other half will be done at some point in the future, which would affect the grounding.

What's the right way to do this? I'm an noob when it comes to electrical.

Thanks!

Why does that sound sketchy to you?

Code still allows a ground wire to be ran separate from the branch circuit wiring to retrofit older houses.

U need to make sure that the water line is bonded to the neutral bar in the main service panel.

The ground fault light on the surge suppressor comes on when the cable is disconnected because the surge suppressor lost the ground connection to the neutral bar in the main service panel via the cable line whoch should be bonded to the main service panel neutral/ground bar. The way surge suppressors work with ground fault lights is they send a small amount of current on the ground wire to check if there is a path to ground.

The part of the house that isnt repiped isnt a problem. U can just run the green ground wire to the nearest GROUND/BONDED metal water line

As you probably know the plumbing needs to be metal and grounded it self.
my electrical box is also grounded to my plumbing or maybe it is my plumbing is grounded to my breaker box, Being that my box has two out side ground rods.

The plumbing is BONDED to the main service panel as it should be.

And youre confused about the 2 types of electrical grounding.

EGC/equipment grounding is different than grounding electrodes.

EGCs provide low resistant paths for fault current so breakers can trip and clear the fault.

Grounding electrodes such as grounding rods have several purposes the main being to ground lightning strikes.

EGCs and grounding electrodes are 2 different animals- dont confuse the 2!

Heres a good article that helps to clear up the confusion:

http://www.electriciantalk.com/articles/the-confusion-of-the-term-grounding/

BTW 20' of buried metal water line can be used as a grounding electrode. But again thats different than an EGC.

A ground wire theoretically shouldn't have any current on it under normal circumstances - it's there for protection. If you have stray current on the coax you should figure out where it's coming from.

The stray current is from the IsoBar thats sending a minute amount of current over the shielding of the coax to detect whether the equipment grounding is kosher...

The BEST solution is replace that one outlet with a GFCI. You can plug a 3 prong cord in directly, even though there is no ground. GFCI's even com with a sticker that say "Not Grounded".

It is totally safe and code legal, because GFCIs protect against any small amount of leakage current.

The OP needs a grounded outlet not a GFCI.

Using a GFCI will NOT provide the surge suppressor with the proper fault current path to shunt surge current. A surge suppressor needs a grounded 3-wire outlet to function properly..

There is a drawback if your house has a neutral fault, and is connected by metal plumbing to the neighbors, You can create a deadly hazard at their box.

The plumbing should be bonded to the neutral bar in the main service panel to prevent the plumbing from becoming energized from a wiring fault. This is standard practice. If it doesnt get bonded fault current could energize the plumbing and the breakers wont be able to clear the fault.

And if the service neutral is lost, the neutral return current can and will flow over the grounding electrodes as well as the metal water line. But as is usually the case, one hot leg will see higher voltage than the other which can create a dangerous situation that can burn the house down.

 

[ishiboo]

Something sounds up here. Yes, there may be a single bond to the water pipe... but running an outlet's individual ground directly to a water pipe seems like it could not possibly be acceptable... right? The ground wire should be run to a ground bar in the main panel (or ground/neutral), and other grounding rules should apply.

The Isobar should not buzz. They have a lifetime warranty, it should be sent in for no-cost replacement. A GFCI will not change the fact that it is not grounded.

Does the coax go through the Isobar, or just directly to the cable box?

 

[dw1]

Something sounds up here. Yes, there may be a single bond to the water pipe... but running an outlet's individual ground directly to a water pipe seems like it could not possibly be acceptable... right? The ground wire should be run to a ground bar in the main panel (or ground/neutral), and other grounding rules should apply.

The Isobar should not buzz. They have a lifetime warranty, it should be sent in for no-cost replacement. A GFCI will not change the fact that it is not grounded.

Does the coax go through the Isobar, or just directly to the cable box?

This is a recent post:
http://www.garagejournal.com/forum/showthread.php?t=325515&highlight=outlet+ground

 

[sberry]

We wentvtheu this before, show me where it's written it is allowed to ground to a water line. Last time this came up the thread stalled.

 

[dw1]

We wentvtheu this before, show me where it's written it is allowed to ground to a water line. Last time this came up the thread stalled.

Read the link I posted above!!

 

[sberry]

Second, even if there was a way around this why outright endorse something sketchy and last ditch at best? Going to save you some personal coin?

 

[sberry]

Read the link I posted above!!

re read the link you posted.

 

[McFarmer]

Somewhat related, but it gives me a chance to tell a favorite story.

We live in an old farmhouse with the well about 100 yards away. The only shower my wife lets me use is in the basement corner, cement floor, drain to the ditch.

For a while I would get a little tickle when adjusting the water temp. Checked the water heater, all fine. It went on for months, sometimes I would get it, sometimes not. Finally I got a pretty good one and the wife was thinking maybe I was enjoying it too much.

Come to find out the submersible pump was shorting out when it kicked on. That was through a 50 foot well, 100 yards of pipe, some plastic with brass fittings, some galvanized.

Now I know why cows don't like stray voltage in their drinkers.

 

[Cmreschke]

We wentvtheu this before, show me where it's written it is allowed to ground to a water line. Last time this came up the thread stalled.

The code book does not say what is allowed, that is up to the ahj. What the code states is what is NOT allowed, and what IS required. Shall and shall not are the terms used.
With that being said show me where it says I can't run a ground to a bonded metal pipe.

 

[Pwrgeek]

NEC 250.130(C)1 allows bonding the grounding terminal of a grounding receptacle replaced in a nongrounding system to "Any part of the Grounding Electrode System" and 250.52 makes the metal water piping part of the Grounding Electrode System.


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[Aerogt01]

So what do you all think is causing the buzzing?

You have a ground loop hum. Your entertainment center or even house has a local neutral value that has a voltage differential to the coax (earth) ground.

Attaching ground to cast iron water pipes is common, just be careful. If the pipe is cut in front of the ground attachment the plumbing system then may gain it's own potential and shock you.

Is it to code? Hell if I know.

 

[wyliesdiesels]

Second, even if there was a way around this why outright endorse something sketchy and last ditch at best? Going to save you some personal coin?

Im reqlly curious why u think its sketchy to do this!!

Maybe u dont understand the theory behind it....

I use to do this for customers all the time through PG&E's grounding program. And it was inspected and passed...

Theres nothing "sketchy" about it.

And yes it would save some coin! Quite a bit actually. U know how much it costs to demo and rerock a house? Not to mention priming and painting?

Somewhat related, but it gives me a chance to tell a favorite story.

We live in an old farmhouse with the well about 100 yards away. The only shower my wife lets me use is in the basement corner, cement floor, drain to the ditch.

For a while I would get a little tickle when adjusting the water temp. Checked the water heater, all fine. It went on for months, sometimes I would get it, sometimes not. Finally I got a pretty good one and the wife was thinking maybe I was enjoying it too much.

Come to find out the submersible pump was shorting out when it kicked on. That was through a 50 foot well, 100 yards of pipe, some plastic with brass fittings, some galvanized.

Now I know why cows don't like stray voltage in their drinkers.

That means that your pump motor and well casing(if metal) wasnt properly grounded. The breaker shouldve tripped.

You have a ground loop hum. Your entertainment center or even house has a local neutral value that has a voltage differential to the coax (earth) ground.

Attaching ground to cast iron water pipes is common, just be careful. If the pipe is cut in front of the ground attachment the plumbing system then may gain it's own potential and shock you.

Is it to code? Hell if I know.

The service neutral, plumbing, telephone, CATV, grounding electrodes, etc should all be at the same potential...

If one of those isn't then that means theres an issue with the bonding...

 

[Aerogt01]

In a current-code house, yes. In those old things, nope. No way. I've been hit pretty good by ungrounded equipment.
EDIT: The equipment had its own neutral then I became an earth ground.

 

[wyliesdiesels]

In a current-code house, yes. In those old things, nope. No way. I've been hit pretty good by ungrounded equipment.
EDIT: The equipment had its own neutral then I became an earth ground.

An earth ground is different than an equipment ground. You are confusing 2 different things.

An earth ground aka grounding electrodes are mainly for grounding lightning. Grounding electrodes dont carry fault current and dont provide a path for breakers to be able to clear fault current.

Read this article. It will help u understand things better:

http://www.electriciantalk.com/articles/the-confusion-of-the-term-grounding/

Also, if u were able to be shocked by a piece of equipment then that means it wasnt properly installed as it shouldve been grounded and it also means there is a wiring fault in the equipment. That has NOTHING to do with how old or new the building is and everything to do with a hack install job!

 

[lilcuda]

I am not sure what NEC code cycle your area was on, but EGC, (ground) was required in 1962. Your home was built in 1966.

Are you sure that the wiring does not include ground and perhaps someone has replaced with non grounded receptacles?

I have no idea about the wiring. I haven't looked at it. It's a grounded outlet, in other words, it's a 3 prong outlet, but the wiring is unknown.

 

[lilcuda]

Why does that sound sketchy to you?

It was probably the way the electrician presented it. Maybe he sounded sketchy more than the procedure. Also, we will eventually have to repipe the rest of the house and no offense to any plumbers here, but my experience is that many of them are hacks. I would be concerned about the grounding not being maintained.

 

[lilcuda]

Something sounds up here. Yes, there may be a single bond to the water pipe... but running an outlet's individual ground directly to a water pipe seems like it could not possibly be acceptable... right? The ground wire should be run to a ground bar in the main panel (or ground/neutral), and other grounding rules should apply.

The Isobar should not buzz. They have a lifetime warranty, it should be sent in for no-cost replacement. A GFCI will not change the fact that it is not grounded.

Does the coax go through the Isobar, or just directly to the cable box?

The coax goes directly to the cable box, not through the Isobar.

 

[rockwithjason]

code generally requires that new installations have a cold water bond within 10 feet of the point of entry by the water pipe into the house. if that bond isn't there then i would get some #6 solid bare copper and a grounding clamp and put that in. at that point assuming that the piping is continuous all the way thru the house you should be able to bond the ground pin on the receptacles to the water pipe with a #14 or #12 insulated copper wire. if it were my choice i would make the connection at the cold water bond, read within 10 feet of the water pipe entry or at the newly established bond to the panel (read ground bar installed int the panel with the cold water bond terminated to it). this would be code compliant and get you a ground. if the house is repiped then you will have to have a plan for maintaining that bond to the water pipe or a new plan to maintain the connection to the grounding electrode system. you may end up driving a ground rod and running that to the panel instead.

 

[rockwithjason]

NEC 250.130(C)1 allows bonding the grounding terminal of a grounding receptacle replaced in a nongrounding system to "Any part of the Grounding Electrode System" and 250.52 makes the metal water piping part of the Grounding Electrode System.




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Winner!

 

[McFarmer]

That means that your pump motor and well casing(if metal) wasnt properly grounded. The breaker shouldve tripped.

No breaker, probably a couple 30 amp fuses. I imagine a short in the windings somewhere wasn't drawing enough to blow a fuse. A person can feel a very small amount of electric current, especially naked on a wet concrete floor.

Livestock people deal with stray voltage all the time, sometimes it is hard to find the source.

Sorry for the interruption, back to the debate.

 

[dave*99]

You have a ground loop hum. Your entertainment center or even house has a local neutral value that has a voltage differential to the coax (earth) ground.

Attaching ground to cast iron water pipes is common, just be careful. If the pipe is cut in front of the ground attachment the plumbing system then may gain it's own potential and shock you.

Is it to code? Hell if I know.

The OP said the Tripp Lite Isobar is buzzing, so I suspect the warning buzzer in Isobar is doing the buzzing. That being said, he may still have a ground loop.....

 

[ishiboo]

The OP said the Tripp Lite Isobar is buzzing, so I suspect the warning buzzer in Isobar is doing the buzzing. That being said, he may still have a ground loop.....

Yeah, a ground loop/hum would show up on the speakers plugged in, more than likely.

I believe the Isobar is shot and needs to be replaced... it should not hum. But I would get a grounding wire there (as it's required by the Isobar to function properly) before I sent it out.

 

[dave*99]

Yeah, a ground loop/hum would show up on the speakers plugged in, more than likely.

I believe the Isobar is shot and needs to be replaced... it should not hum. But I would get a grounding wire there (as it's required by the Isobar to function properly) before I sent it out.

I agree the Isobar needs a ground wire. I don't think the OP said anything about a hum though.

 

[lilcuda]

I agree the Isobar needs a ground wire. I don't think the OP said anything about a hum though.

No real hum in the speakers. More of a buzz coming from the Isobar. I'll try it in another outlet to see what happens. In the meantime, I'll be calling another electrician for some troubleshooting.

 

[sberry]

NEC 250.130(C)1 allows bonding the grounding terminal of a grounding receptacle replaced in a nongrounding system to "Any part of the Grounding Electrode System" and 250.52 makes the metal water piping part of the Grounding Electrode System.


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no it doesnt. read all that again and see what is the grounding system, branch plumbing is not part of electrode grounding system.

 

[sberry]

Winner!

no it isnt, only within 5 ft is it part of it. Got to re read 250.52 again with this.

 

[Pwrgeek]

250.52 does not appear to limit the proximity of the water pipe to me. It only requires that it be bonded to any other grouding electrode, that it not rely on the path through the meter (meter jumper in place), and that it be in contact with the earth for 10' somewhere. In my opinion (the code does not make this clear to my knowledge) the entire water piping system that has an electrically continuous path back to the point where it is bonded to the rest of the GES is part of the GES.


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[Diggla]

When watching tv do you see a line or a couple of lines scroll up the screen horizontally. If so you have a neutral issue and i would call ur electric company.

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[Cmreschke]

If water pipe was not considered ground or bonded, then we would not bond motorized tubs to the closest cold water pipe with an 8 solid.

 

[Speedy Petey]

250.52 does not appear to limit the proximity of the water pipe to me. It only requires that it be bonded to any other grouding electrode, that it not rely on the path through the meter (meter jumper in place), and that it be in contact with the earth for 10' somewhere. In my opinion (the code does not make this clear to my knowledge) the entire water piping system that has an electrically continuous path back to the point where it is bonded to the rest of the GES is part of the GES.


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Your last sentence is dead wrong. It is absolutely clear!

The ONLY part of a water piping system that is part of the GES is the first 5' of where it enters the building. Every electrician I know knows this since their first year.