running ground wire to water pipe?

[Milton Shaw]

I got a kick out of seeing the ground in a new house built across the street from me. The ground went straight to the bronze pressure regulator. The problem was it was all connected to Pex pipe no ground connection at all. All pipe in the house was Pex so nothing anywhere to ground plumbing too.

 

[wyliesdiesels]

I got a kick out of seeing the ground in a new house built across the street from me. The ground went straight to the bronze pressure regulator. The problem was it was all connected to Pex pipe no ground connection at all. All pipe in the house was Pex so nothing anywhere to ground plumbing too.

Was the pipe going to the water meter metal?

If it was then it was the grounding electrode...

 

[theoldwizard1]

If water pipe was not considered ground or bonded, then we would not bond motorized tubs to the closest cold water pipe with an 8 solid.

On older homes that MAY have had some plumbing rework, this could be a bad idea ! Just because that pipe is galvanized/copper does not mean it is a "good ground". Who knows if there is a section of PEX or even a dielectric union (I know, illogical) installed somewhere !

 

[theoldwizard1]

I don't understand all the angst about adding grounds to an old house for "protecting" electronic equipment !

Install a GFCI outlet in front of a power strip and be done with it !

 

[lilcuda]

When watching tv do you see a line or a couple of lines scroll up the screen horizontally. If so you have a neutral issue and i would call ur electric company.

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Nope. Anyway, it's not a CRT. I don't think a Plasma screen tv (even my 9 year old one) would do that, would it?

 

[lilcuda]

On older homes that MAY have had some plumbing rework, this could be a bad idea ! Just because that pipe is galvanized/copper does not mean it is a "good ground". Who knows if there is a section of PEX or even a dielectric union (I know, illogical) installed somewhere !

This is why I asked the question in the first place. The house has had approximately half of the plumbing replaced with copper. If it was done properly, there should be dielectric unions where the copper meets the galvanized.

Another point is that the water main comes into the opposite side of the house from where the electrical panel is. The two couldn't be any further apart. I looked at the panel the other night and there is a bare copper ground wire that goes from the panel in the garage into the house. I don't know where it goes from there.

 

[Diggla]

It would its a humbar

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[Pwrgeek]

Your last sentence is dead wrong. It is absolutely clear!



The ONLY part of a water piping system that is part of the GES is the first 5' of where it enters the building. Every electrician I know knows this since their first year.

Gonna need a code reference on that one. Just because every electrician "knows" something doesn't make it correct according to the NEC.

NEC 250.52(A)(1)

Metal Underground Water Pipe. A metal underground water pipe in direct contact with the earth for 3.0 m (10 ft) or more (including any metal well casing bonded to the pipe) and electrically continuous (or made electrically continuous by bonding around insulating joints or insulating pipe) to the points of connection of the grounding electrode conductor and the bonding conductor(s) or jumper(s), if installed.

Doesn't say anything about a distance limit. Unless it is somewhere else in the code then the entire water piping system that is electrically continuous is part of the GES and can be used as a grounding point per 250.130(C)(1)

 

[Diggla]

Im in ny, i had to be grounded to cold water and a ground rod outside

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[Pwrgeek]

I don't understand all the angst about adding grounds to an old house for "protecting" electronic equipment !

Install a GFCI outlet in front of a power strip and be done with it !

While this would protect from ground faults it won't fix the OPs issue. His issue is the lack of a ground connection for his SPD which won't function properly without one. When the coax is connected he is actually using the coax shield as the ground connection back to where it is bonded near the service entrance (a bad idea as if the SPD tried to discharge a surge through that path it will probably result in much more damage). The cold water piping (especially since it is copper not galvanized) is a much better electrical path to use. Ideally he would just run some new Romex but that doesn't appear to be an option so this discussion has ensued.

 

[Speedy Petey]

Gonna need a code reference on that one. Just because every electrician "knows" something doesn't make it correct according to the NEC.

III. Grounding Electrode System and Grounding Electrode Conductor

250.52 Grounding Electrodes

(A) Electrodes Permitted for Grounding.

(1) Metal Underground Water Pipe.

A metal underground water pipe in direct contact with the earth for 3.0 m (10 ft) or more (including any metal well casing bonded to the pipe) and electrically continuous (or made electrically continuous by bonding around insulating joints or insulating pipe) to the points of connection of the grounding electrode conductor and the bonding conductor(s) or jumper(s), if installed.

VII. Methods of Equipment Grounding

250.130 Equipment Grounding Conductor Connections

(C) Nongrounding Receptacle Replacement or Branch Circuit Extensions.

The equipment grounding conductor of a grounding-type receptacle or a branch-circuit extension shall be permitted to be connected to any of the following:

(1) Any accessible point on the grounding electrode system as described in 250.50

(2) Any accessible point on the grounding electrode conductor

(3) The equipment grounding terminal bar within the enclosure where the branch circuit for the receptacle or branch circuit originates

(4) For grounded systems, the grounded service conductor within the service equipment enclosure

(5) For ungrounded systems, the grounding terminal bar within the service equipment enclosure

III. Grounding Electrode System and Grounding Electrode Conductor

250.68 Grounding Electrode Conductor and Bonding Jumper Connection to Grounding Electrodes

The connection of a grounding electrode conductor at the service, at each building or structure where supplied by a feeder(s) or branch circuit(s), or at a separately derived system and associated bonding jumper(s) shall be made as specified 250.68(A) through (C).


(C) Metallic Water Pipe and Structural Metal.

Grounding electrode conductors and bonding jumpers shall be permitted to be connected at the following locations and used to extend the connection to an electrode(s):

(1) Interior metal water piping located not more than 1.52 m (5 ft) from the point of entrance to the building shall be permitted to be used as a conductor to interconnect electrodes that are part of the grounding electrode system.

A metallic water pipe used as an electrode is only part of the grounding electrode system within 5 feet of where it enters the building. After that it's just a water pipe.

 

[Speedy Petey]

Just because every electrician "knows" something doesn't make it correct according to the NEC.

Yeah, generally it does. Especially if most of them are familiar with the NEC.

 

[Cmreschke]

A metallic water pipe used as an electrode is only part of the grounding electrode system within 5 feet of where it enters the building. After that it's just a water pipe.

That's great info, but it does not apply to adding a ground wire (egc) to a receptacle. As long as the the water pipe is continuous to the bonding jumper ir can be used as an egc connection.

 

[sberry]

Speedy is right, they are very specific about where it is allowed to be connected, doesn't say any pipe you can find. It looks like it could be bugged on to the ground rod wire.
I saw a shootout on this by some real code guru types, at least one of them on the panel and a inspector training guy.

 

[Speedy Petey]

That's great info, but it does not apply to adding a ground wire (egc) to a receptacle. As long as the the water pipe is continuous to the bonding jumper ir can be used as an egc connection.

NO, this is wrong. You can run an EGC to the GEC or the GES, and only the first 5' of a water entrance pipe is part of the grounding electrode system.
250.68(C)(1) is perfectly clear on this. See how I made it red above so it is obvious?

 

[Pwrgeek]

NO, this is wrong. You can run an EGC to the GEC or the GES, and only the first 5' of a water entrance pipe is part of the grounding electrode system.
250.68(C)(1) is perfectly clear on this. See how I made it red above so it is obvious?

250.68(C)1 only requires that the bonding jumper for the service be within 5' of the entrance. It does not affect 250.130(C)1 allowing use of the rest or 250.52 defining the rest as part of the GES.

 

[sberry]

The rest of it isn't the electrode system. We are not grounding to it but grounding it. With the advent of plastic pipe no way is this a good idea even if you could finds someone that would endorse it but,,, find a couple guys from the code guru sites that will get behind this.

 

[Speedy Petey]

250.68(C)1 only requires that the bonding jumper for the service be within 5' of the entrance. It does not affect 250.130(C)1 allowing use of the rest or 250.52 defining the rest as part of the GES.

No, it clearly states "Grounding electrode conductors and bonding jumpers shall be permitted to be connected at the following locations....".
So you really think they only want us to use only the first 5' for bonding jumpers and interconnected electrodes, but any other portion of a water piping system can be used for an EGC? Wow.

Listen, you keep connecting equipment grounds to wherever you want, I really don't care. I know what the code says and what the correct interpretation is.

Here's a challenge for you, go to Mike Holt's site and try your interpretation out on them. Let me know how you make out.

 

[Pwrgeek]

No, it clearly states "Grounding electrode conductors and bonding jumpers shall be permitted to be connected at the following locations....".

So you really think they only want us to use only the first 5' for bonding jumpers and interconnected electrodes, but any other portion of a water piping system can be used for an EGC? Wow.



Listen, you keep connecting equipment grounds to wherever you want, I really don't care. I know what the code says and what the correct interpretation is.



Here's a challenge for you, go to Mike Holt's site and try your interpretation out on them. Let me know how you make out.

Here's the way I look at it. We have to remember that 250.130(C)1 only applies to houses built before the 60s. Therefore a small number of houses. We also have to recognize that the choice we have is between installing the outlet ungrounded and installing it with a perfectly adequate (though less than ideal) ground to a water pipe. Ideally (as I have said several times) the OP would run new wire to this outlet with a ground, but if that's impossible or unworkable I would prefer to see some ground as opposed to none. I can tell you that I have seen this installation technique used many times in several different AHJs and have never had it be flagged. At this point I think we can agree to disagree on the code interpretation.

 

[Speedy Petey]

At this point I think we can agree to disagree on the code interpretation.

What did the guys at the MikeHolt.com forums say?

 

[Pwrgeek]

What did the guys at the MikeHolt.com forums say?

Couldn't care less. All I care about is what the inspector says. Since I work for the utility I generally don't even care about that. [emoji39]

 

[Cmreschke]

Couldn't care less. All I care about is what the inspector says. Since I work for the utility I generally don't even care about that. [emoji39]

Hell, you guys hardly care about ground. Lol.

 

[sberry]

The mechanic can figure out how to run it to the water pipe but not to the panel?

 

[Speedy Petey]

Couldn't care less. All I care about is what the inspector says. Since I work for the utility I generally don't even care about that. [emoji39]

Oh, OK. You just let the inspector teach you your job, even if he's wrong?
No problem.