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Saylor-Beall Rebuild

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jonathan75

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EOC_Jason

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I am looking for a 7.5 HP. Does he offer any 7.5's?

Not him, but there is some other guy with a TON of motors (don't know if they are single or 3-ph, you will need to do the research)...

http://houston.craigslist.org/fod/3803531041.html

Though really you should try to buy locally so you can check out the motor. Even if you have to check out the cities around you and make a little road trip you can save quite a bit of cash.

I would wait until you have the pump all back together and everything painted and such before buying a motor that way you can keep searching for a good deal.
 

Mr onetwo

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Hmmm so tempting. But the only thing that worries me is if it takes $200 to make it right then I am getting close to how much a new motor would cost after shipping and everything. Considering the age of the unit I may need new caps and bearings but it is hard to say.

There are no bids on it...send him a message and see if you can score it for $100 if no one bids...you never know.That is a 215T frame motor...super heavy duty...almost $1500 list price:wtf:
 

Zrexxer

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It may "work" but its not rated for a single phase 7.5 hp motor.
Actually, it is. Square D even supplies a jumper strap kit to convert 3 phase mag starters to single phase that include copper straps to jumper L2 and L3, and the kit includes written instructions on how to perform the conversion.

I don't think the manufacturer would be providing off-label parts to jury-rig their starters.
 
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jonathan75

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Not him, but there is some other guy with a TON of motors (don't know if they are single or 3-ph, you will need to do the research)...

http://houston.craigslist.org/fod/3803531041.html

Though really you should try to buy locally so you can check out the motor. Even if you have to check out the cities around you and make a little road trip you can save quite a bit of cash.

I would wait until you have the pump all back together and everything painted and such before buying a motor that way you can keep searching for a good deal.

Thank you for the tip. I will start an automated Craigslist search and get notification when something pops up.

There are no bids on it...send him a message and see if you can score it for $100 if no one bids...you never know.That is a 215T frame motor...super heavy duty...almost $1500 list price:wtf:

Good idea, I will watch the bidding.

Actually, it is. Square D even supplies a jumper strap kit to convert 3 phase mag starters to single phase that include copper straps to jumper L2 and L3, and the kit includes written instructions on how to perform the conversion.

I don't think the manufacturer would be providing off-label parts to jury-rig their starters.

Do you have a link to the kit? I tried a search but couldn't find it. I am curious about what is in it and to read the instructions.
 

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Today I worked on the 4722 Crankcase Breather and 6155 Air Valve. The Crankcase Breather on my pump is mounted on an extension. I tried it both ways and I don't see a logical reason why it should be extended. Looking at pictures and documentation online the Crankcase Breather is never show extended. So when it goes back together I will remove the extension. I took it apart to clean it up and I only found a big ball bearing and a spring. You can remove the top of the Crankcase Breather with a set of strong snap ring pliers.

The 6155 Air Valve I couldn't get apart. Ken at Air-Flo told me it is just a normal air valve inside like you would find on your bike and car tires. So I want to replace it with a new valve and clean out the pipe. My Schrader valve tool is too short to reach the valve so I will pick up a longer set from Autozone tomorrow and a set of new valves.

Edit: I found out why they put the extension on the Crankcase Breather. The threads are worn down and look striped. The extension went down a little more then the breather. I will need to use a lot of sealant. The disappointing thing is that it looked like the factory did it because it was painted before it washed off.

Edit 2: Ken at Air-Flo told me they put the extension on the Crankcase Breather to help with oil spitting up. I guess I will find out if this is a big issue or not.
 

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Here is the primer I will use during the prep work. I will use them on the bare metal parts. The rest of the painted areas will be roughed up with 400 grit sandpaper.

The first can on the left will etch as well so I will use it first. The second can on the right will help fill the voids a little better and even out the surface. For anything deeper or bad scratches I will use Bondo Glazing & Spot Putty.
 

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Zrexxer

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That one seems like it just bypasses the heater.

Three phase starters use an overload device (what you're calling a "heater") on each leg. A single phase circuit only requires one overload, so the other two legs are jumpered. So, yes. It ain't rocket science.
 
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jonathan75

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Three phase starters use an overload device (what you're calling a "heater") on each leg. A single phase circuit only requires one overload, so the other two legs are jumpered. So, yes. It ain't rocket science.

Why can't you just leave it there? I don't see the point in removing it and using a jumper.
 

W-Cummins

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You are correct it is not rated for single phase but it can handle the current. NEMA is conservative already and it can handle 27 continuous Amps on NEMA 1. I couldn't find how much it can handle peak or any rating for that but considering it is conservative already it should have no problem taking my continuous load of 16 Amps and 32 Amps at peak startup current.

I'm not sure where you got those numbers but they are WAY off! Your single phase 7.5 hp motor is going to pull close 30 amps running and the locked rotor amps are going to be over 200! The start up will not lock the rotor but I wouldn't be at all surprised to see OVER 100 amps at start up. Most motors I have seen that are TRUE 7.5 hp single phase have a peak RUNNING amps about 32 or so on the tag, NEC says you have to use 40 amps for one @7.5hp 230v. So either way you look at it the NEMA 1 starter is not big enough to meet the code requirements.


As for the plug if I thought I was going to pull 100 amps I would not use a 50 Amp plug. The only reason I would use a 50 Amp plug is because my peak is only 32 Amps. If something went wrong and I pulled more then 50 Amps my breaker would kick in before my wire melted as it is designed.

Nothing has to go wrong, every time you start the thing your going to pull more than 50 amps! And when you do it's unlikely the breaker will trip and I’m sure the wire will not melt either. The starting amperage is a short duration event, its over in a few seconds at most.

I already have a 30 Amp outlet where I wanted the compressor but I won't use it. The start-up current would exceed the rating of the breaker and trip every time the compressor kicks in. If I change the breaker the #10 wire is not rated for that and it would be unsafe. So I am going to make a new run of #6 wire and 50 Amp breakers.
I think that we have a fundamental misunderstanding as to how things are setup with a motor control circuit.

1st the motor controller ( starter ) is the over current protection device. The overload part of the starter (sized to the tag running amps) protects the wire from over current ( the wire sized at 125% of 40 amps here)
2nd the breaker/fuse is there to clear faults/shorts and can in my opinion be sized excessively large. Depending on the device many times the running load, in this case 40 amps X 800% for an instantaneous trip breaker! Note this is the MAXIMUM amount and it does NOT say you HAVE to use that large of breaker.
I would probably start with a 40 amp breaker for your application, as I like to think that it would also then function as an additional protection of the wire beyond what is required in the code. In your case if you had an occasional nuisance trip it would not be a big deal ( and might even be a good deal if say you tried to start the compressor with the wrong weight oil in cold weather!). Also the replacement cost of the beaker is low, if you have to change it, to a 50 or larger at some point.

William......
 
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W-Cummins

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Actually, it is. Square D even supplies a jumper strap kit to convert 3 phase mag starters to single phase that include copper straps to jumper L2 and L3, and the kit includes written instructions on how to perform the conversion.

I don't think the manufacturer would be providing off-label parts to jury-rig their starters.

Show me where they rate the nema 1 starter for the 7.5hp motor on 230v single phase and I will agree with you! No one here is saying you can't run a 3 phase starter on single phase....

William....
 
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jonathan75

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I'm not sure where you got those numbers but they are WAY off! Your single phase 7.5 hp motor is going to pull close 30 amps running and the locked rotor amps are going to be over 200! The start up will not lock the rotor but I wouldn't be at all surprised to see OVER 100 amps at start up. Most motors I have seen that are TRUE 7.5 hp single phase have a peak RUNNING amps about 32 or so on the tag, NEC says you have to use 40 amps for one @7.5hp 230v. So either way you look at it the NEMA 1 starter is not big enough to meet the code requirements.




Nothing has to go wrong, every time you start the thing your going to pull more than 50 amps! And when you do it's unlikely the breaker will trip and I’m sure the wire will not melt either. The starting amperage is a short duration event, its over in a few seconds at most.

I think that we have a fundamental misunderstanding as to how things are setup with a motor control circuit.

1st the motor controller ( starter ) is the over current protection device. The overload part of the starter (sized to the tag running amps) protects the wire from over current ( the wire sized at 125% of 40 amps here)
2nd the breaker/fuse is there to clear faults/shorts and can in my opinion be sized excessively large. Depending on the device many times the running load, in this case 40 amps X 800% for an instantaneous trip breaker! Note this is the MAXIMUM amount and it does NOT say you HAVE to use that large of breaker.
I would probably start with a 40 amp breaker for your application, as I like to think that it would also then function as an additional protection of the wire beyond what is required in the code. In your case if you had an occasional nuisance trip it would not be a big deal ( and might even be a good deal if say you tried to start the compressor with the wrong weight oil in cold weather!). Also the replacement cost of the beaker is low, if you have to change it, to a 50 or larger at some point.

William......

You are correct, my numbers were off. I double checked on Centrury's (A.O. Smith) web site and the continuous load is 32 Amps. It does not say what the peak is. But it has two starter capacitors so that might help some. It also has a energy efficient rating but I could not find out more info on what that means yet. NEMA 1 is rated for 27 Amps continuous load. We are 5 Amps off but everyone says how conservative NEMA ratings are so I will put it too the test. When I first use it I will use clamp on Amp meters and use FLIR or temp readings to check it out. If it gets too warm I will replace it.

My breaker I plan to keep at 50 Amps to protect the house wiring for up to what it is rated for. And I will let the motor controller heaters protect the motor and wiring.

One thing that might help keep the Amps lower is the Saylor Beall has a no load start feature built in. They use a centrifugal unloader that holds the inlet valve open until the motor reaches full speed and the load is thrown on.
 

Mr onetwo

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I agree with W-Cummins.....you can't use a size 1 starter for your application.Starters can be very confusing, especially when switching between single & 3 phase.Take a look at this one on Ebay....rated for the application and no heaters.Also, why would you use a plug?...just hard wire it in a surface mount enclosure on the wall. http://www.ebay.com/itm/NEW-7-5-HP-...310?pt=LH_DefaultDomain_0&hash=item41576863be
 

Mr onetwo

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One thing that might help keep the Amps lower is the Saylor Beall has a no load start feature built in. They use a centrifugal unloader that holds the inlet valve open until the motor reaches full speed and the load is thrown on.

Most if not all compressors have an unloader.A motor has a very hard time starting a compressor against the low side pressure...hence an unloader.The starting current of the motor is not a function of load....I believe this is called Inrush current.Starters are designed to take this into account.An inadequately sized starter can be very dangerious:scared:
 
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jonathan75

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I agree with W-Cummins.....you can't use a size 1 starter for your application.Starters can be very confusing, especially when switching between single & 3 phase.Take a look at this one on Ebay....rated for the application and no heaters.Also, why would you use a plug?...just hard wire it in a surface mount enclosure on the wall. http://www.ebay.com/itm/NEW-7-5-HP-...310?pt=LH_DefaultDomain_0&hash=item41576863be

The one on eBay concerns me a little bit. It is a no name brand and probably Made in China. It looks very cheap. The over engineered Square D might be able to handle more in the real world but not the paper specs. I think I am going to pull mine apart and look at the contactor sizes. If I use the proper sized heaters it would open before any damage was done anyway.

I probably will hard wire it actually. When I finish my garage floor I will just disconnect the wires from the junction box and move it out of the way. The only advantage of the plug is I could disconnect the compressor and hook a welder up to it but I can just wire another plug on a separate breaker and have that ready for future use.
 
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Most if not all compressors have an unloader.A motor has a very hard time starting a compressor against the low side pressure...hence an unloader.The starting current of the motor is not a function of load....I believe this is called Inrush current.Starters are designed to take this into account.An inadequately sized starter can be very dangerious:scared:

The motor I am looking at has a energy rating. I wonder if this means it has a winding configuration for star at start and then switches to delta for lower current draw?
 
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Mr onetwo

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According to my GE motor book,Siemans and the Square D literature that I have... a single phase 2 pole size 1 Nema 1 full voltage normal duty mag starter is only rated for a 3HP motor @ 230V .You need to be very careful...I would hate to see a building burn down over a simple starter after all your good work on the compressor:scared:
 
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http://www.plccenter.com/en-US/Buy/SIEMENS/16CF15BGAJE

I just bought this starter for my 7.5HP Saylor Beall. The starter it had was only rated for 30A. The one I linked is good for 40 amps and is also set up for 240V single phase.

According to my GE motor book,Siemans and the Square D literature that I have... a single phase 2 pole size 1 Nema 1 full voltage normal duty mag starter is only rated for a 3HP motor @ 230V .You need to be very careful...I would hate to see a building burn down over a simple starter after all your good work on the compressor:scared:

I might end up trying one of the Japanese designed but Chinese made ones. The reviews seem good.

http://www.automationdirect.com/adc...tors_-z-_Overloads/32_to_50_Amp/SC-E2S-220VAC

http://www.automationdirect.com/adc...tactors_-z-_Overloads/32_to_50_Amp/TK-E2-4200

and extra contacts for maybe some red and green running lights

http://www.automationdirect.com/adc...tors_-z-_Overloads/Auxiliary_Contacts/SZ-A22T
 
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Mr onetwo

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Does it come with thermal overload protection? Have you seen a picture of the contactor? I only can find the box.

Yes they do...I believe it is called an IEC style starter...it has adjustable dials instead of heaters...better IMHO.I used to buy starters a lot when I was a buyer for a large mechanical up here in Maine.In the old days the specs had us supplying starters on all the HVAC equipment instead of the electricians...not so much nowadays.:D
 
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I took a look at the contactor. The contacts look about how I expected them to look. Some arcing and age but still usable. After measuring the contacts based on a very general calculation with no heat factors or quality of copper taken in account I think it is around 36 amps it should take. That is using "2Ampere/mm sq(i.e 2x surface cross sectional area of the rectangular copper conductor)". But there is a bridge to the connection that goes smaller as you can see in the picture (Pic 4). Guess it all goes back to the weakest link. It looks like I won't be using this now. Probably will go with the Japanese designed Fuji made in a ISO certified factory in China.
 

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Yes they do...I believe it is called an IEC style starter...it has adjustable dials instead of heaters...better IMHO.I used to buy starters a lot when I was a buyer for a large mechanical up here in Maine.In the old days the specs had us supplying starters on all the HVAC equipment instead of the electricians...not so much nowadays.:D

What do you think about the Fuji's?

http://www.automationdirect.com/adc...tors_-z-_Overloads/32_to_50_Amp/SC-E2S-220VAC

http://www.automationdirect.com/adc...tactors_-z-_Overloads/32_to_50_Amp/TK-E2-4200

Edit: May work, can't handle the duty cycle from what I was told.
 
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The Schrader valve gave me some trouble but it finally came out. Too bad they only sell the black band valves in the store. From what I can tell the red valves have a higher pressure rating. So I am searching for some red band Schrader valves this week. Maybe a tire shop can give me one if they stock it. But I am glad I got it out because the whole thing was built up inside with thick sticky oil.
 

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On Sunday I cleaned up my work bench and made a staging area for all of the parts. Here I will inspect, clean, sand and prep each part prior to painting.
 

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Mr onetwo

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Mr onetwo

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The Schrader valve gave me some trouble but it finally came out. Too bad they only sell the black band valves in the store. From what I can tell the red valves have a higher pressure rating. So I am searching for some red band Schrader valves this week. Maybe a tire shop can give me one if they stock it. But I am glad I got it out because the whole thing was built up inside with thick sticky oil.
Call up a refrigeration/AC guy and get some cores from him...I wouldn't trust tire cores. http://www.grainger.com/Grainger/JB-Replacement-Valve-Core-3GD03
 
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Same type stuff...I don't think they are any better.Keep in mind that the links you provided are not for a starter(just contactor components) and they are not made to mount in your enclosure.Also, you need aux contacts.

What do you mean by it is not for a starter? Do you mean Soft Starter? Because the contactor is a starter by definition. Just depends on what you use it for. (Motor Starter = High-capacity electric switches usually operated by electromagnets.)

I think it uses a standard rail to mount. But I will check in my box. If not I will drill some holes in my box and make it work.

There are some terminals on it I believe but I was going to get some aux terminals anyway. They are very cheap. Thought I can hook up some red and green lights. :)

http://www.automationdirect.com/adc...tors_-z-_Overloads/Auxiliary_Contacts/SZ-A22T

Edit: Size one up if using IEC rated. So if you need 40 amp buy a 50 amp. But keep your thermal overload protection at the correct rating.
 
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What do you mean by it is not for a starter? Do you mean Soft Starter? Because the contactor is a starter by definition. Just depends on what you use it for. (Motor Starter = High-capacity electric switches usually operated by electromagnets.)

I think it uses a standard rail to mount. But I will check in my box. If not I will drill some holes in my box and make it work.

There are some terminals on it I believe but I was going to get some aux terminals anyway. They are very cheap. Thought I can hook up some red and green lights. :)

http://www.automationdirect.com/adc...tors_-z-_Overloads/Auxiliary_Contacts/SZ-A22T

Edit: Size one up if using IEC rated. So if you need 40 amp buy a 50 amp. But keep your thermal overload protection at the correct rating.
 
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jonathan75

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Check out this site...shows more detail on these starters http://www.upe-group.com/SHIHLIN-MOTOR-STARTERS.html wiring diagram....

This is IEC rated also. The technical support guy said not to use it. They don't sell NEMA contactors and turned away a sell so he must be serious. He said it can't handle the duty cycle if it is IEC rated. Only the enclosure is NEMA in that link.

Edit: Size one up if using IEC rated. So if you need 40 amp buy a 50 amp. But keep your thermal overload protection at the correct rating.
 
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