Scissor truss questions.

[lynnbilodeau]

Unless I find the perfect property with a built shop in the next 3 or 4 months, we are going to build a 28 x 32 (with a 4 x 16 bump out) detached workshop / garage. The width will be 28. It will be 32 deep.

I AM LOCATED IN CENTRAL OKLAHOMA.

I already have a 3 car garage, so the addition will be mainly for actual work, not car storage. However, I will be able to park cars in it from time to time.

I have read a lot of threads, including a very long thread on what you would have done differently. I realize the number one “differently” thing is going bigger. I cannot go bigger. We settled on an area where I have access to utilities, and it is already paved right up to it. I cannot go any wider because of a pipe line down the side of the property. I have to stay 30 feet away. Our location is going to place the garage doors at a 90 from our current garage doors. I can attach the two buildings with a breezeway and run my electrical without having to trench. Once I get started, I will start a build thread.

Our home has both hip and gable roof lines, so I could go either way and still match the house.
We did a room addition on the back of the house (needed a place for my pool table), and did a hip roof. I like the hip because of the added strength and wind resistance; important in Oklahoma.

I need to accommodate a two post lift, which means 12 foot ceilings. However, I do not want 12 foot walls. For one thing, it will be too tall, and won’t blend well with the rest of the house. We are going with the same brick and roofing, and want a nice integrated look. Besides, the HOA requires that it match the house. (I know, I know, but I don’t mind the HOA restrictions).

Anyway, I have drawn up some preliminary plans to include scissor trusses. I will have no attic storage, but that is not an issue. To accommodate a lift, I need to run the trusses long ways, meaning a 32 foot span.
I have attached two images: the first is my initial truss plan based on some images I got online. The second is with my mod. Both are 2x6 with reinforcing plates (not shown) at all of the joints.

About the mod: I got to thinking that I really don’t care to sheet rock at 16 foot, which is where I would be in the center. The additional horizontal beam would be right at my 12 foot target for the ceiling. It would require extending the center beam down an additional 4 feet from the original design. Not much additional cost, but a little easier to sheetrock. Also less extra space to heat.

This spans 32 feet and give me almost 3 foot of overhang. The roof is about an 8/12 pitch and the inner slope is about 4/12. All of the existing roof lines are either 7/12 or 8/12.

Two questions:
1. Is the original truss plan OK as is?
2. If I use the modified truss plan, any issues there?

 

[Ross/Kzoo]

Have you talked to a truss engineer yet? They've seen and done it all and can advise you the best and least expensive ways.

 

[dos zetas]

I had to build a 24 foot scissors truss house and got free engineering advice from the local college- I'd try that. The county extension agent will put you in touch with someone, give them a call. They also have books and engineering info on structures, they help with farm buildings all the time.

 

[Andybull]

I have 36' pole barn with scissor trusses, the truss company had no problems engineering them.

 

[lynnbilodeau]

Have you talked to a truss engineer yet? They've seen and done it all and can advise you the best and least expensive ways.

The first pic is a truss designed by a truss engineer.

 

[Ross/Kzoo]

The first pic is a truss designed by a truss engineer.

Given that, all you are doing is adding on to the truss, correct?

 

[koditten]

Looks just like my trusses. I have 9.5 walls and with the scissor trusses I have close to 15' at the peak. No issues at all using my lift to it's full lift hight.

I'm sure the truss company can design you the truss you want.

 

[koditten]

By the way, I did half of my shop with attic trusses and half with the scissor trusses. I have 7'+ head room in the attick side. I went with 12/12 trusses and I was still below my height restrictions(by 2.5").

 

[lynnbilodeau]

Given that, all you are doing is adding on to the truss, correct?

Exactly. To me (a non enginieer) it looks like I am actually adding a little strength.

 

[lynnbilodeau]

Looks just like my trusses. I have 9.5 walls and with the scissor trusses I have close to 15' at the peak. No issues at all using my lift to it's full lift hight.

I'm sure the truss company can design you the truss you want.

What is the span on yours?

 

[koditten]

I think 28'. Might be 26'. Not at home to check.

 

[readhead]

Stop guessing and go to a truss yard. They can layout whatever you want while your sitting there. Pretty much any shape you can think of is possible. Another plus is they can give you pricing while you pick different options.

 

[Daniel Dudley]

You should raise the walls and run the roof the other way.

 

[lynnbilodeau]

You should raise the walls and run the roof the other way.

If I raise the wall height to 12, I will go with a hip roof. I can stick build that. Already did it on the room addition. I just don't want to go that high with the structure. I know it is only two feet, but it would be out of proportion to the rest of the house.

Our family room is 12 foot ceilings, but is more in the middle of the house.

 

[stingry]

Coffer trusses??

View media item 7636
Cheers
Steve

 

[Bsj04]

I was in the same boat, didn't want 12' walls. I got scissor trusses with a 8/12 exterior pitch and 6/12 interior pitch for 2/3 of the building and attic trusses for the other 1/3. My span was only 26' but 32' should be no problem. Call a truss plant and tell them what you want. Most likely they can make it or tell you the best they can do. I wasn't happy with what one plant was offering to meet my needs and I don't think their software was good enough to make small changes. I called another manufacture and they build exactly what I wanted but were using 2x6"s instead of 2x4"s price difference wasn't bad and I got what I wanted. I used Foxworth Galbraith here in dfw. They were easy to work with.

 

[JakeKohl]

Lumber companies will provide your truss designs usually for free. Let those people work that out to your specs and worry more about your layout and where outlets will live.

And...not that you asked me but....insulation and sheetrock are best left to the contractors. What you save by doing either one of those yourself is negligible. In my case, it cost me an extra $350 to have a contractor do my insulation than to do it myself (1700 sq ft in two stories). My sheet rock cost me an extra $450 over doing it myself (pricing supplies from big box stores). Neither was worth my trouble. Save your $ by doing the specialized skilled labor in the electrical, plumbing, and HVAC (if you have the skill).

PS...the coffer trusses sound like a good fit for your situation!

 

[MN4x4]

Your second truss design depicts what is commonly called a 'tray' vault, and it's what I have in my shop. My shop is 36' wide, the outside pitch is 8/12, and they give me an area inside that is 9' wide and is over 16' above the floor. Perfect for a mezzanine, lift, or circus act!

As others have stated, go to a Menards (if you have one) or ProBuild or the like and they'll help you design the truss for free.

 

[theoldwizard1]

As other have already said, you need to your trusses "engineered". No local code will allow trusses that have not been designed by a licensed/certified engineering company and they typically have to be manufactured by a licensed/certified company.

Now here are some alternatives to consider. They will give you additional head space, but will cost more money.

SIP Roof panel

SIP roof panels require a slightly different construction technique. A ridge beam (typically a glulam) which rest on posts (metal, built up 2by or another glulam) at each end, is required. Purlins which also rest on posts may or may NOT be required depending on the span. The big benefit of SIPs is that they are fully insulated ! Last I checked, it does get hot and cold in OK !! Depending on local codes, you may not have to finish the inside or just apply paint.

 

[j p smith]

As others have said you need to check with the people that build truss's. I went with
10' walls, 5/12 on the outside, inside is 2 1/2/12. Our shop is 40' wide and we are 14' 2" in the center and my lift is centered. For us that kept the height of the building at 18'. Only reason I would have liked to have gone with 12' walls would be for wall space for signs inside. Jeff

 

[lynnbilodeau]

Thanks for all the responses. The trusses will be built on site for several very valid reasons. Yes, I understand ALL of the arguments to have them built and delivered. It isn't going to happen. It can't happen.

Coffer ceiling is not an option for me. I want the option of installing a second lift (4 post) mainly for storage.

I am not concerned with engineer approval. I will have the design double checked and approved. I have looked at span tables, and am over engineered for what I am doing.

I am asking about real world experience with 32 foot span scissor trusses with 8/12 roof pitch and 4/12 ceiling pitch, or 7/12 roof and 3.5/12 ceiling. The reason I ask is that most of the 32 foot span trusses I see in actual use are less than 7/12 pitch on the roof line.

12 foot walls with a hip roof (7/12) is also still on the table. I have no problem stick building that. However, I would RATHER the building be 2 foot shorter, which is why I am looking at the scissor truss option.

 

[little d]

The first truss you showed is already ok'd right and your just asking about adding to that to get the "flat" part of your ceiling @12' with no storage? Ya, you can do that... If you asked me to do it, I'd ether use plates or cut plywood to sandwich the joints, don't toe nail them.
Are ya going to rock the ceiling or use tin?

 

[lynnbilodeau]

Yes, it is an approved plan.

Plans call for cut plywood.

Not a big deal if I can't add the mod.

Going to rock it.

 

[little d]

Ya, I'd do it if that's what ya want. Your not taking anything away and like ya said, kinda beefing it up some.

Rock is ok but have ya thought about tin? A lot less work...

U in OK city? I'm in Hennessey.

 

[kj_mustang]

Mine is less so no real help to you. I have a 32' deep pole building with scissor trusses that are 6/12 & 3/12 pitch.

 

[kbs2244]

Check out

http://www.ag.ndsu.edu/extension-aben/buildingplans/machine

plan number 5341 and the truss design at the upper left of page 2

You should check out OSU AG department for plans.
They will be considered "engineered" and be "stamped" for any legalities.

 

[DekeT]

I am not concerned with engineer approval. I will have the design double checked and approved. I have looked at span tables, and am over engineered for what I am doing.

You're saying you have an engineer ready to check and stamp your home made truss plans?

 

[DekeT]

Check out

http://www.ag.ndsu.edu/extension-aben/buildingplans/machine

plan number 5341 and the truss design at the upper left of page 2

You should check out OSU AG department for plans.
They will be considered "engineered" and be "stamped" for any legalities.

The north Dakota plans are sold with the proviso that local professional advice be sought to tailor the plans to your needs. I doubt a building inspectorwill approve those plans without an in-state engineer stamp.

 

[rktolds]

I'm interested in how you go with this build. I'm in Tuttle and want to put a few scissor trusses in my existing 24'x36. Who are you using for the trusses? I'd like to talk to them about my ideas. Good luck with the build.

 

[lynnbilodeau]

You're saying you have an engineer ready to check and stamp your home made truss plans?

Not exactly.

 

[lynnbilodeau]

I'm interested in how you go with this build. I'm in Tuttle and want to put a few scissor trusses in my existing 24'x36. Who are you using for the trusses? I'd like to talk to them about my ideas. Good luck with the build.

It will be a while before I start building. I am just in preliminary planning stage.

I am in Edmond. Like I mentioned before, the trusses will have to be built on site. We cannot get a large truck or a crane on the property.

Anyway, I may end up just going with the 12 foot walls and a stick built hip roof. The roofline may look a little odd with gables on the long end anyway. Just trying to decide which way to go.

I do have a crude drawing of my floor plan. I just wanted to make sure I could get my essentials in there. Everything is to scale. You can see from the drawing why I will need scissor trusses if I go with the gable ends.

 

[theoldwizard1]

Going to rock it.

You had better insulate that space before you put up the sheet rock ! It will help keep the garage cooler in summer and warmer in winter. Don't forget adequate ventilation.

Like I mentioned before, the trusses will have to be built on site.

Check your truss software specs. Some truss plans require a specific grade of lumber.

We cannot get a large truck or a crane on the property.

So all the building material is going to be dropped at the road ?

I hope you have an ATV and some kind of trailer to haul it to the job site !

 

[lynnbilodeau]

I will insulate the same as if it were my home.

I will follow the specs to a "T" if we go with the engineer approved truses.

"So all the building material is going to be dropped at the road ?

I hope you have an ATV and some kind of trailer to haul it to the job site !"

When we did the room addition I picked up most stuff (everything but the brick) with a 17 foot trailer (obviously some of the 24 foot lumber was hanging off the back end). When they delivered brick, they parked the big truck at the gate (yeah, it is gated) and used a fork lift to bring the pallets into the addition and up the 250 foot driveway. Fortunately, the driveway is all concrete.


Next week (weather permitting), I am having rock delivered to cap our 400 feet of retaining walls. They will do the same thing. Rock is all on pallets. Park the truck in the street, and bring it to the house one pallet at a time.

There is absolutely no way a semi can get through. I can get my 1.5 ton dump truck on off the property. Pic attached. She is a sweetheart. I can convert to a flat bed in minutes.

Yeah, the logistics ****, but we like our location, and like our privacy (hundreds of trees) even though it is just 2.5 acres. Oh, and I REALLY like my next door neighbor. It is like having another brother. Talk about crappy logistic problems: because of the location of the pool, I had to hand dig for the footing around our gameroom addition. There was no way to get a small back hoe in there. And, I went wider and deeper than code, all dug by hand. See the last pic.

Like I said in the first post, there is still a CHANCE we fiind the perfect property close by with an existing shop building. We have found several in the general area, but nothing that suits our taste as far as perfect location and lots of trees.

Right now we are 10 minutes from the office. Even though I only work about 20 hours a week, I still make the trip daily. My wife Sherri (I am married to an angel) works with me, and we ride together. I don't see full retirement for another 15 years. We don't want more than a 20 minute ride. I am one (1) mile from I-35, and that gives us access to a turnpike and two more major interstates, so we can get wherever we are going pronto. My 19 year old is 10 min from the college, and I am 15 minutes away from my aging mother and all three of my grown children, and grandchildren.

Hence, the small footprint for the shop. If it weren't for the pipeline down the side of the property, and the HOA restrictions, we would be building something completely different. But then, if I had room for 60 by 100, I would probably be dragging way too many pieces of **** home.

Sherri and I love doing projects together. She is the world's greatest helper at every task I have ever given her. Someone meantioned subbing out the drywall and some other task. The only thing that will get subbed out is the brick. I will hire an electrician (same one who I used on the room addition) to pull the electrical, but he will hire me to do the rough work. We just like doing stuff ourselves. Heck, I painted my own car in the garage last winter. Couple of pics of that project attached. We did our own circle drive tied in to the main driveway. The circle drive is 245 feet long. We terraced the back yard and built all 400 foot of retaining walls.

My brother thinks I am nuts for doing all of this myself. However, I have plenty of reasons.

1. Ben Franklin said "a penny saved is a penny earned". Actually that isn't true any more. You see, there were no income taxes back when Ben said that. Today a penny saved is two pennies earned. Once you figure all the taxes, I have to make $2 to spend $1. My game room addition was quoted at $40,000. We spent $19,000 and upgraded to black granite window sills (to match the kitchen counters), Pella windows, etc. Spent my spare time doing it, but we had fun. I would have had to earn an extra $60,000 to have it done. My son came by one afternoon to help me sheetrock the ceiling. 10 foot ceilings with 12 foot sheetrock. We did it in an hour.

2. Quality. I don't know about you guys, but I can't find guys that will do as good a job as I can do. I hate looking at crappy work. They are out there, but you have to pay a premium, and then you have to figure on waiting because they are in demand.

3. There is something fantastically rewarding about creating something. Every day I go into that gameroom we built, I have a sense of satisfaction. I planned it and built it. Even refurbing stuff is rewarding. I look at my Z/28 and sometimes can't believe how nice the paint came out. Lots of prep.

4. It is my therapy. I love working on cars and doing construction projects.

 

[Ross/Kzoo]

I've got to agree with you there:

"1. Ben Franklin said "a penny saved is a penny earned". Actually that isn't true any more"

The way I figure it is a penny saved is a penny that you don't have to pay taxes on.

 

[theoldwizard1]

When we did the room addition I picked up most stuff (everything but the brick) with a 17 foot trailer (obviously some of the 24 foot lumber was hanging off the back end).

So is the concrete going to be pumped over 200' or are you going to mix it on site ?

I guess if you have a bunch of buddies with trucks and a U-Haul concrete plant nearby, that would be an option. With only 1 trailer at a time, the concrete might setup too much in between loads for a continuous pour of a foundation.


P.S. Living close to work is the best thing I ever did ! I worked for a big company that had several facilities in the metro area and I worked at a lot of them. Never had a commute that was longer than 20-30 minutes in good weather.

 

[lynnbilodeau]

So is the concrete going to be pumped over 200' or are you going to mix it on site ?

Great question.

I can actually get a cement truck in the property from the back side where there is no paving. I just opened up the fencing back there. Even then, I have to encroach a couple of feet on the neighbor's property, and be careful to miss his sprinklers. We bring it down the side yard and miss a few of our sprinkler heads by a few feet. Just can't do it if it has rained recently, so timing is everything. Yeah, the driver's usually start into a coma when I show them where to enter the property.

I can get it to within about 40 feet of where we are building. We have done several concrete projects in the last few years: footing, sidewalks and three patios. On all the other projects just wheeled it. Three wheel barrows gets 5 yards done pretty quick. However, this footing and slab for this project will be a lot more, so if they can't use a long chute, will have to pump or conveyor of some sort.

 

[theoldwizard1]

I can actually get a cement truck in the property from the back side where there is no paving. I just opened up the fencing back there. Even then, I have to encroach a couple of feet on the neighbor's property, and be careful to miss his sprinklers. We bring it down the side yard and miss a few of our sprinkler heads by a few feet. Just can't do it if it has rained recently, so timing is everything.

Around here, you would have to wait until June for the ground to dry out !

 

[gpflepsen]

200' is no problem for pumping concrete. Depending upon your local concrete quality, consult with the pump and concrete company for mix designs that are readily pump-able. You should be able to get a 3" concrete hose and 4" pipe to make for easy placement.

 

[dos zetas]

I like your attitude about DIY- you're right, it can be hard to find workers who care about quality.
One reason that I built my own trusses is, living in a remote part of the **** end of Baja Oklahoma, it exactly doubled the price of them to have them brought here.
Also, last trusses I built were 24 foot scissors trusses, glued and screwed plywood gussets (NOT air nailed). Three people could put them up, 9 foot walls, without a crane.
Keep us posted on your progress.

 

[lynnbilodeau]

Thanks for the encouragement.

I am drawing up a second set of plans with the 12 foot walls and hip roof.

If I go that way, I will run 16 inch lvl down the center with a steel post in the middle and steel posts on each end, So that I can hang the ceiling joist off of it. That way I will have some attic space to boot. Steel post in the middle will be right next to the inside post of the two post lift, so not like it is going to be an obstruction.