Sears' response on tools made in China

[oldtinsmith]

I found this interesting!:
http://businessmodelinstitute.com/snap-on-tools-destroys-its-business-model/

Doug

 

[ganymede]

Frankly I don't care where its made but I would prefer USA made.

All who talk about 'labor costs' are being naive. This is bigger than labor costs - as in salary. Companies move production over seas for more reasons than wages. The move because of GOVT REGULATIONS, Unions, EPA etc. The actual wages paid don't really move the needle as much as you might imagine.

As soon as we create an attractive business climate here - jobs will flood back. Companies are in business to make money - not employ people. We have to financially compete - eliminate corporate taxes and drastically overhaul regulations.

Try to create a small foundry today, to forge tools.... go ahead, try

Try and get an American to make a good quality tool for lower wages than a Chinese worker will make one.
Try and get your average American tool buyer to pay 30 dollars for a 3/8 drive ratchet. That's half what a Snap On would go for so it should be easy right ?

 

[IMStuner]

Having a larger external diameter IS a big part of what makes an inferior tool inferior.

As far as the tolerances, from what I saw when I was in Sears lately, they are miserably bad. Put the display 5/16" wrench on a 5/16" nut...if my Hazet were so loose, I'd go down another size because it would have meant I grabbed the wrong wrench.

I'm going to buy the same socket made in China version one with a 10 mm and see if the tolerances is that far out. I'm pretty sure I have a Craftsman 10mm 6pt unused.

 

[marlinspike]

I'm going to buy the same socket made in China version one with a 10 mm and see if the tolerances is that far out. I'm pretty sure I have a Craftsman 10mm 6pt unused.

To be fair, I have no idea what the USA made Craftsman wrenches were like. It could be they're just as bad. In which case they're both awful tools.

 

[Cobra4B]

It's shareholder greed, executive greed/bloat, and customer stinginess that got us where we are. Where we end up is yet to be determined. I'd have all SO if I could afford it. Sadly it's a
numbers game for all of us on both sides. To get the industry to change, we as
consumers, need to change.

Why is wanting a return on your capital "greed"? If the market dictates that you need to lower cost to make a positive return then that's what you do. Companies aren't charities, they don't exist for anything other than to make a return on one's investment.

 

[Bull]

When a company has been identified for decades with a particular level of quality and a particular commitment to domestic production, an overseas shift is just too much for some people to accept. It's understandable.

It's like if you were married to a pretty fine lady for decades. Then, one day, you come home from work and she's on the couch, scratching a bulge through a pair of tighty whiteys and greasing her new post-op pencil-stache. You can't just accept that overnight.

 

[anthonyfilice]

I'm sickened by this thread and all craftsman threads. I personally won't buy craftsman anymore until they shape up and so should all of you, but do we have to talk about this every day. Why don't we start threads on finding new reliable quality tools. Just my two cents.

 

[matt1977]

When a company has been identified for decades with a particular level of quality and a particular commitment to domestic production, an overseas shift is just too much for some people to accept. It's understandable.

It's like if you were married to a pretty fine lady for decades. Then, one day, you come home from work and she's on the couch, scratching a bulge through a pair of tighty whiteys and greasing her new post-op pencil-stache. You can't just accept that overnight.

well said, liked the analogy too

 

[Bull]

well said, liked the analogy too

I'm sickened by this thread and all craftsman threads. I personally won't buy craftsman anymore until they shape up and so should all of you, but do we have to talk about this every day. Why don't we start threads on finding new reliable quality tools. Just my two cents.

I tell you what, you have a point and I accept the challenge. I have a company in min. They make all of their stuff here ASAIK and are proud of that position. They offer a decent variety of tools, and yet we NEVER talk about them on here. Let me do some research in their catalog and start a thread about them. If there is enough interest and desire to support them, we could do a GJ sales event in a month or two, like we did for Westling Machine or Harry J. Epstein. I love it when we band together (and when a plan comes together.)

Their prices are not bargain-bin. But, if we really do want to support American materials, workers, products, and the dignity of labor then we should be prepared to pay USA prices for USA tools, right? Or do we just blow our shofar without any chutzpa to back it up?

 

[IMStuner]

Bottom line they are a U.S. company and they still put people to work and still provide some quality stuff. Buy the things you like and give feedback to things you don't.

 

[NC-Fordguy]

When a company has been identified for decades with a particular level of quality and a particular commitment to domestic production, an overseas shift is just too much for some people to accept. It's understandable.

It's like if you were married to a pretty fine lady for decades. Then, one day, you come home from work and she's on the couch, scratching a bulge through a pair of tighty whiteys and greasing her new post-op pencil-stache. You can't just accept that overnight.

Way to many Freudian issues for me to debate

But it is good to see another GJ Sears bashing thread. We haven't had one since the day before

 

[IMStuner]

I'm at sears right now and every damn tool is stamped USA. Where are you guys finding the Chinese ones?

Edit:

I found some kits that are made in China but all the individual ones are made in USA and most of the kits.

 

[shoturtle]

There is a good mix of chinese and US depending on the sears and how often and fast they go through their stock. The rp ratchets in loose stock are chinese, and the new package extensions bars are as well. The full polish sets of wrenches are mostly chinese, with some old stock USA. All the master sets are US, with some mix of US socket and chinese ratchet. All the pass through and universal are chinese.

I have not seen a chinese chrome socket yet or a rp wrench either.

But the universal and maxx axxess pass throughs are excellent tools.

 

[lilscorpion]

Why is wanting a return on your capital "greed"? If the market dictates that you need to lower cost to make a positive return then that's what you do. Companies aren't charities, they don't exist for anything other than to make a return on one's investment.

Outsourcing, off-shoring, what ever...comes with a cost. ROI today in exchange for what in the future? If Sears loses customers today so that the C-levels and investors get to make their money this year without regard to what happens next year. Sure it's reasonable and I don't have a problem with it. I also don't want to hear the complaints when the business no longer exists or is hemorrhaging as a result...see the executives still get paid when those out sourcing decisions turn out to not go all that well down the road by a suffering quality or loss of customer base. I'm not picking a fight. Everyone's got to make a buck. I'm just pointing out that a decision to do it today may have a serious impact down the road and most companies aren't considering that because too many executives are reading C-level weekly (and aren't in the weeds enough to evaluate the real impact). Sears today, gone tomorrow me thinks.

 

[gatewaysysop]

When a company has been identified for decades with a particular level of quality and a particular commitment to domestic production, an overseas shift is just too much for some people to accept. It's understandable.

It's like if you were married to a pretty fine lady for decades. Then, one day, you come home from work and she's on the couch, scratching a bulge through a pair of tighty whiteys and greasing her new post-op pencil-stache. You can't just accept that overnight.

Damn, Bull, that is pure gold right there.

Adding this to my list of favorite GJ quotes of all time. Spot on!

 

[Spudland_Dave]

I was never really impressed with the USA Craftsman tools either. Their screwdrivers are still made in USA, and are still ****.

That said, at the price they're charging, with the lifetime warranty thing (which, as we see on this forum leads to people bringing in 30 year old ratchets to exchange), how could they turn a profit if they didn't outsource to China?

I've had a mix of SnapOn and CMan tools forever...as a kid I bought Cman, Dad gave me Snappy's, got to college and worked at a dealership...had money to burn, bought snappy's myself, dad still trickled the Snappy's to me. Now I'm a dad myself, I was back to buying CMan.
All along I was never really impressed with CMan quality or finish. Chrome was dull, but when on sale with CMan club discounts, couldnt beat the price with warranty, AND USA Made. Back in those early days you had 3 options, Tool Truck/Industrial Brand at high prices & quality. CMan in the middle and imported junk. NOW the imported stuff isnt junk anymore. You got good brands like Gearwrench, and many others which are made somewhere else and if you can see past the COO, you can see they are actually pretty good.

IOW - Most customers DEMAND SO quality, HF pricing, and to be protected from their own abuse and stupidity for decades...sounds like many of those I deal with.

There are brands now that fill that nice...I bought my first Kobalt socket ever a couple weeks ago, used it a few times now and I'm impressed. I'd put it way closer to snappy quality the any CMan ever was....fit & finish are beautiful at a great price.

I watch the people that go into the Sears tool section. All they do is look at the price; they couldn't care less where the tool is made. It takes all the willpower I got to keep from saying something to them.

Count me in the "couldnt case less about COO and only care about quality coupled with price" shopper..goes both ways, I wont pay SO prices for Cman, at the quality level they were. All my Cman ratchets show marks of cheater pipes, why not? My Snappy ratchets live the life of luxury.

 

[Tucko]

Frankly I don't care where its made but I would prefer USA made.

All who talk about 'labor costs' are being naive. This is bigger than labor costs - as in salary. Companies move production over seas for more reasons than wages. The move because of GOVT REGULATIONS, Unions, EPA etc. The actual wages paid don't really move the needle as much as you might imagine.

As soon as we create an attractive business climate here - jobs will flood back. Companies are in business to make money - not employ people. We have to financially compete - eliminate corporate taxes and drastically overhaul regulations.

Try to create a small foundry today, to forge tools.... go ahead, try

I agree with you to a point. What regulations are you talking about? EPA and enviromental laws, clear air laws etc were passed for very good reasons. Do you remember rivers catching on fire? Do you remember unbreathable air in the 1970's? I do. Have you seen some of these countries our jobs are being shipped to? They're toxic waste dumps, real shitholes sometimes. Do you really want to erase those kinds of regulations that make our lives more livable? Sometimes what's attractive to business is not so attractive to others.

 

[shoturtle]

Actually it is more about corporate taxes and business friendly policy , then EPA regulations now a days. Chinese are stepping up the environment standards. They have no choice anymore. The power grid in china is not dependable, and rolling brown out are common and will shut down a plant for days.

That is one reason big ticket items manufacturing are moving to the Southern states. Way more dependable power grid and way friendlier taxing and business policies.

 

[NC-Fordguy]

Actually it is more about corporate taxes and business friendly policy , then EPA regulations now a days. Chinese are stepping up the environment standards. They have no choice anymore. The power grid in china is not dependable, and rolling brown out are common and will shut down a plant for days.

That is one reason big ticket items manufacturing are moving to the Southern states. Way more dependable power grid and way friendlier taxing and business policies.

There's actually a Chinese company that's planning to set up shop in the southern US to manufacture appliances.

I wonder how well that's going to fly here? Some folks here just aren't going to know what to do with themselves

 

[Paul Bee]

We have seen the Enemy and it is US! Find and watch the movie "Forbidden Planet". There is no one to blame, we are the problem! Personally I am done with SEARS. I am going to spend some real money and buy Proto and SK tools.

 

[shoturtle]

NC-fordguy,

Haier is that company, the US HQ is in NYC, and their plant is in SC I believe.

 

[franzdom]

Is there any real proof the made in China Craftsman tools are made to a lower grade. It's not where it's made that matter on quality but the whole QC process. I rather have the tools made here in the U.S. but it's going to cost more to produce and would you guys that complain about where it's made have a problem with paying 30 to 40% more on the tools?

Yes, just look at them, it's easy to see.

 

[Steinmetz]

While checking out some Craftsman tools online and discovering too many made in China for my liking, I decided to drop them a quick note on their comment section. Although my email to them was just a spur of the moment thought and not necessarily overly substantive, it is attached however, their response as to what led to their decision may be of interest.


Good afternoon Mr. Smith,

Thank you for contacting Sears.com.

We appreciate your loyalty to the Craftsman brand. Please understand that our decision to manufacture some of our Craftsman tools outside the United States was not made lightly. Craftsman customers demand a high quality product at a value added price point and that it be backed by our Forever warranty. In order to be able to deliver all three of these benefits, we decided to manufacture some of our Craftsman tools outside of the USA. We hope you will continue to support the Craftsman brand.
We appreciate your business and hope you will continue to make Sears Holdings your choice for quality and value. Please let us know if we can assist you further. We are here to help.

Join our Shop Max® program today and enjoy free shipping on millions of eligible items for the next 90 days! Click Here to add Shop Max® to your cart and enter the coupon code MAXCALL1 on the checkout page! View terms and conditions.

Anne B.
Sears Customer Care
[email protected]
1-800-366-3028

Original Message Follows:

Comments: Why is Sears/Craftsman throwing away decades of reputation by having most of your mechanics tools now made in China. Craftsman was the one name that many professionals/home mechanics/handymen used to be able to count on for quality. Chinese tools are not the same quality and experienced users know the difference. Please see the error of your ways and switch back to quality US made tools before it puts the Craftsman name out of business!
Thank you
Joe Smith

I got to the "Sears Holdings" part. That told me everything I needed to know.

 

[johnnybentwrench]

I am hungry for Chinese food now, but it has got to be cheap and best quality.

 

[lilscorpion]

I am hungry for Chinese food now, but it has got to be cheap and best quality.

Pay for quality up front or you'll pay later. You choose.

 

[Jim C.]

A totally stupid and worthless response from Sears.

 

[cowboy73]

Maybe somebody should start a Facebook page and tell everybody about how we aren't happy with Sears and they way their ruining Craftsman? Post up some youtube videos? Everybody write a letter to Sears? Get the word out there! Not everybody comes on internet forums... How many people do you know? If Sears received a 100,000 letters, I think they would take notice. I own a fair amount of Craftsman tools. Now they are just sad reminders of how things used to be. I grew up helping my dad fix cars with Craftsman tools.

 

[Conductor562]

Sears never made an attempt to fix what was broke with their USA product line. When did you last see a Craftsman commercial aside from holiday season, hell, when did you last see one period? Craftsman has spent at least the last decade releasing gimmicky **** while their core products remained largely unchanged. Why wasn't Craftsman advertising the hell out of the fact they were still made for Americans, by Americans when the unemployment rate started shooting up? and when the economy tanked causing many users who typically buy higher end brands to find ways to save? Where was Sears with their innovative products and updated designs? They were more worried about the bottom line than they were growing the very reputable decades old brand that they had. They made no attempt to save anything. Gearwrench came out of nowhere with their Asian tools and has become a somewhat major brand based almost entirely on well designed products of good but not exceptional quality. SK came back from the dead on the same business model with a higher, but not excessive price point, and built a new factory in Illinois to do it. Craftsman? Well, they just sat there.

 

[SMKS]

All the master sets are US, with some mix of US socket and chinese ratchet.

None of the tool sets I've seen include Chinese ratchets. Did you mean ratcheting wrenches? Since Sears only offers imported ratcheting wrenches, the tool kits do include Chinese ratcheting wrenches.

In a document posted here by a member who works at Sears, the company specifically said only the open stock ratchets will be Asian, and the ratchets in tool sets will stay USA made.

All ratchets in mechanics tool sets and socket wrench sets are still made in the U.S. The only ratchets that are made in Asia are the open stock ratchets.

Now, will the tool sets stay USA made in the future? Who knows.

 

[Bull]

I was dumbfounded by the lack of a full court press on their part when they released the premium ratchets. There were all kinds of reports on here that even store employees didn't know much about them. Those are some nice ratchets.

 

[OveRReV]

the only way for manufacturing jobs to go back to the USA is when American workers accept a $3-5 a day wage just like the mainland chinese do & that's with a 16hr work day.

until that day comes they'll keep manufacturing in the mainland asia & southeast asian countries where labor is dirt cheap.

 

[Bull]

the only way for manufacturing jobs to go back to the USA is when American workers accept a $3-5 a day wage just like the mainland chinese do & that's with a 16hr work day.

until that day comes they'll keep manufacturing in the mainland asia & southeast asian countries where labor is dirt cheap.

Well, we do still have manufacturing here. It's not all gone.

 

[Brownsfan]

I was just on the Craftsman Facebook page and every other post or comment was people complaining about this or the tools they bought on line show up and they are china. To the point that it cant be ignored. Even "Mr Craftsman" had to address it. Hopefully they get the message. I am going to buy some of the last Pro screwdrivers and that will be it.

 

[ChargedUp!]

I understand the frustration but where is it towards other tool manufacturers? Everybody loves Snap On but now i see Costco is selling a Snap On knife/ blade set and wouldn't you know it, made in China! Time to spread the hate!
Just like foreign cars, give a good quality and it's not going to bug many people where it comes from in global economy.

 

[loosewingnut]

I have gotta add a couple of things. Many people have brought up great points, but one I haven't heard is this: Americans don't even know tools anymore. Show some pictures and ask the average kid to name a screwdriver, a hammer, a ratchet, and a wrench and I would be surprised if the average was better than a 50%. And those are the most common tools. For most of us, we new those by the time we were 5. Now how many of those people even think about a quality difference when purchasing tools. They just see tools and get the cheapest one thinking they all do the same thing.
When I was growing up, Craftsman was the brand you went for if you wanted quality. It was advertised that way on woodworking and auto shows. They always also played commercials about their difference and reputation. Somewhere along the way they gave up on educating the population. I mean who doesn't remember Bob Villa and craftsman?

I am not saying Craftsman's business model is bad, but I question whether or not it can continue. If all the tools they ever made (and they made a ton) have a lifetime warranty and are continually getting warrantied it seems like they get to a critical mass level where they can't make a profit anymore. Just look at all the people on here that go out and buy used tools and then want to get them warrantied. Since their tools rarely go away, the stock just keeps getting bigger and bigger and their costs just escalate exponentially to match. And every time a tool purchased used is warrantied they lose even more money. I worry for Snap-on, Mac, Cornwell, and Matco for the same reasons.

When I go to buy something like an appliance (not on everything though, I admit) I usually try to buy something that is close to the most expensive with the idea that it is of higher quality. More and more though, it seems like more expensive just means more stupid features and not better quality. Since most Americans aren't worried about quality and longevity, they don't shop this way. To most people, the idea that a couch or microwave will still be with you 10 years later is anathema. It won't even match then or be in style. They want disposable **** so they can continually change things. I think a lot of people on this site are like me and look more for quality and things that will go the distance. We are in a tiny percentage of the population.

 

[Conductor562]

I was just on the Craftsman Facebook page and every other post or comment was people complaining about this or the tools they bought on line show up and they are china. To the point that it cant be ignored. Even "Mr Craftsman" had to address it. Hopefully they get the message. I am going to buy some of the last Pro screwdrivers and that will be it.

Wow, it is nasty over there!

 

[OveRReV]

Wow, it is nasty over there!

i got to see this for myself, i always like a little drama.

 

[magova1104]

I love working with tools. I work with tools every day since I was 10 yo. Now I am 40, all my tools are made in USA, (some are Germany). Some day I will have to get rid of them,(I don't want to be buried with them) and I am 100% sure that I will be more rewarded than if I had Chinese ****. Take a look how much do the SO hard handle screwdrivers or the USA marked SO tools cost in some auctions. Just one piece (used) cost as much as 2 sets of Chinese tools! It's just one example. And buying tools made in China does not help to this Country, maybe helps to some big CEO's only.

 

[Cobra4B]

I have gotta add a couple of things. Many people have brought up great points, but one I haven't heard is this: Americans don't even know tools anymore. Show some pictures and ask the average kid to name a screwdriver, a hammer, a ratchet, and a wrench and I would be surprised if the average was better than a 50%. And those are the most common tools. For most of us, we new those by the time we were 5. Now how many of those people even think about a quality difference when purchasing tools. They just see tools and get the cheapest one thinking they all do the same thing.
When I was growing up, Craftsman was the brand you went for if you wanted quality. It was advertised that way on woodworking and auto shows. They always also played commercials about their difference and reputation. Somewhere along the way they gave up on educating the population. I mean who doesn't remember Bob Villa and craftsman?

I am not saying Craftsman's business model is bad, but I question whether or not it can continue. If all the tools they ever made (and they made a ton) have a lifetime warranty and are continually getting warrantied it seems like they get to a critical mass level where they can't make a profit anymore. Just look at all the people on here that go out and buy used tools and then want to get them warrantied. Since their tools rarely go away, the stock just keeps getting bigger and bigger and their costs just escalate exponentially to match. And every time a tool purchased used is warrantied they lose even more money. I worry for Snap-on, Mac, Cornwell, and Matco for the same reasons.

When I go to buy something like an appliance (not on everything though, I admit) I usually try to buy something that is close to the most expensive with the idea that it is of higher quality. More and more though, it seems like more expensive just means more stupid features and not better quality. Since most Americans aren't worried about quality and longevity, they don't shop this way. To most people, the idea that a couch or microwave will still be with you 10 years later is anathema. It won't even match then or be in style. They want disposable **** so they can continually change things. I think a lot of people on this site are like me and look more for quality and things that will go the distance. We are in a tiny percentage of the population.

Some great points... especially the part about quality vs. features.

 

[sberry]

And for some unknown reason, Danaher Tool Group is not able to provide Sears with that service anymore.

They cant compete, sears wanted to go low,,, they shoud havelooked for a place just under SK.

Some great points... especially the part about quality vs. features.

Yes,,, more and more every day, built on the same chassis. Similar to a pickup truck, A 0K one is no better than 30, same engine etc. This is something I have been watching with great interest,,, if a guy wants to see this in action look at the various had can openers at Walmart, notice lo and hi,, same unit wit different grips. Noticed this on toasters, same ends, different trim, some same main parts on the 14$ unit as 60$ one.

The price,,, labeling/box/brand is interesting,,, found the same wheel bearing in 3 different boxes,,, low of 45 in a white box, 90 with parts store name and 120 with brand. Slightly different warranty on brand.