Seeking advice issues with contractor

[skippydoo]

I built my pole barn last year and had the guy who my builder uses for all his insulation spray it with closed cell. He came, looked at it and gave me a verbal quote and I said do it. I wrote the check the morning they showed up and went back to work. I had the walls sprayed 2 inches and roof 3 inches off of the guys suggestion. I had the ceiling installed in the fall with no access to attic area. I noticed during first snow last year a few spots where the snow melted , next snow a few more , I was heating with a small electric heater and each month it cost about 75-100 more to keep 50 degrees. Then I finally got my radiant heat hooked up in march and blew thru 100 gallons by the end of march. we had a hot day in may and the place heated right up . I said thats it I gotta see whats going on . I pulled a metal panel down to find several area's of foam shrinking and pulling away from the truss's. I called the guy and he came and looked at it , saying no problem ,we'll make it right . Now he asked me to call his partner to schedule . 5 months have gone by and now his partner says we will make it right , but I have no idea when. My heat now runs 90 percent of the day to keep it the lowest the t stat will go, 49. I honestly believe they won't come back, plus in 8 days ive burned thru 50 gallons of propane. Any advice on what I should do ? Who can I get to test the foam (basf ) and look to see what went wrong? I will post pictures. Thanks

 

[redneckcharlie]

First off, Im a GC. Sometimes mistakes are made. Rectifying them when found is very important. Correcting an issue in my experience will generate a more loyal customer then a perfect job to completion. That being said. Call them back. If you get one on the phone get a definitive date from them to correct the issue. Be nice, state you don’t want it to get ugly you simply want the issue corrected. If they do not follow through, then proceed to make a complaint on there license, if you can, file with the BBB, state, everyone you can reach out to that deals with that type of scenario. Lastly, have another company come out and correct it, and then file in small claims court. If you call, do the same thing, but add in email contact as well. Before you drop the hammer, send a certified letter stating your intention, and then follow through. If your issue can be fixed by another insulation contractor relatively inexpensively, then maybe you have it repaired and move on. Every ones threshold of tolerance is different. Mine with subs is zero. Im the easiest guy to get along with, just do your job professionally and ethically and well have no issues. Its unfortunate your dealing with this, Im guessing the drive time is more then the actual repair.

 

[Flail]

If they don’t respond, contact your state contractors board.

 

[skippydoo]

I forgot to mention, they told the guy who built the garage they don't want to touch the foam that's up, just spray the ceiling . I'm thinking no good, what happens when I sell and the buyer looks in the attic ? Every month this is getting worse, more foam is shrinking and begins to fall down. I do believe almost 6 months waiting is very understanding. I totally understand the summer heat in June thru early Sept. To have someone take the metal ceiling down, remove the foam , and spray new is going to be about 8-10k Finding someone to remove the foam is almost impossible. I gave the contractor a date that I needed it fixed by 10/22/19.

 

[Bretny]

Looks like they sprayed it on some underlayment and its ripping away from the bottom of the roof. That could be a real pain to repair.

 

[skippydoo]

Looks like they sprayed it on some underlayment and its ripping away from the bottom of the roof. That could be a real pain to repair.

I've been watching it. First it cracks next to one side of the truss , then it shrinks two to three inches in width , then it begins to head south little by little.

 

[CraigStu]

I know you want to get going on this asap, but even so, I'd try to document it all as well as possible. While you can't go back to take pictures, you can definitely start taking them now. I'd also dredge up all those old heating bills and the check you wrote. Even just one picture as it is now and the check to show how old the job is will be very helpful. While you might need to pay a fee, I'd get a second written opinion as to what is needed to fix it permanently. I am concerned the original sub will try to just fix the obvious current problem but I think this will continue to disintegrate, so the repair probably needs to be removal of all the roof insulation.

 

[JoeMcGov]

You should consider finding out what the foam product itself is. Then do your own research by finding the manufacturers written information including their installation instructions and typical details for their product.

 

[LOW1]

First document the problem with lots of photographs, inspections by other qualified installers etc. Then call them up and try and get a firm date. If they dont give you one or dont keep it send them a certified letter outlining the history and the problem and telling them if not fixed in 60 days you will sue them. If they dont get estimates for the cost of fixing it and get it fixed. Then sue them hopefully in small claims court if the cost is less than what your state has as a small claims max amount

 

[dcg9381]

I've had foam manufacturers come out, but I don't think you need that.

I agree with others - not sure that your foam is shrinking here, but it was applied over something (appears to be cloth type material). That material is falling - foam still seems to be sticking.

IMHO, never should have been sprayed over whatever that material is.

Fixing this - probably pulling out all that old foam, spraying the roof deck.

Around here, in most cases contractors aren't licensed (not for insulation anyway) - very little recourse unless you're dealing with a legitimate business and/or you still owe the contractor money. I agree - call and get a "resolved by' date. After that, reviews, a demand letter, and small claims...

 

[WNYflyer]

You should consider finding out what the foam product itself is. Then do your own research by finding the manufacturers written information including their installation instructions and typical details for their product.

^
This x10, start at square one.

 

[SGKent]

just as a caveat - from the photos, the foam may be separating in places but I don't think it is the cause of your loss of heat like you are describing. My suggestion is get a thermal specialist out to do a thermal survey to see how you are losing heat. That will tell you where and how bad the problem it. It will also tell you what the corrective action to be taken is. Lets say they come out and clean it up, looks nice but your heat still goes away. What then? It could be the foam type, or not enough, or maybe there are other issues. Let's get this solved properly and not just blame those foam areas. If you have to go to court what you have isn't going to be enough to prove the heat loss is caused by his work. All he has to say is I recommended more work with better and thicker foam, and warned him about this but he said do it the less costly way. Document Document Document the issues.

 

[BillK]

I would find another company that applies foam and pay them to come out and give you an opinion as to what happened. I am not a builder but I have seen foam applied before and it always seems to be stuck to the roof (or other) surface. It almost looks like what the others are saying that there was some type of black fabric under the roof supports and that is what they applied it to ? Is that the case ? I can see the bare roofing in one of your pictures and there does not appear to be any foam sticking to it.

 

[HDtalk]

You mentioned there was a verbal quote and you gave the on but did you get anything in writing? If so, what does their warranty state?

I didn't know spray foam could shrink like that. Did some googling and read some interesting stories. One person had it sprayed in the attic onto the drywall ceiling of the room below. The trusses were 2 feet on center and the shrinking foam actually started to pull and cup the 5/8 inch drywall up into the attic! It continued to shrink for months everywhere it was applied. They never posted again about the resolution or what was the cause.

The contractor should be bringing in the spray foam rep to take samples for analysis. More than likely it should be pulled off and redone.

Sent from my SM-G950U using Tapatalk

 

[SALIV8]

Just a thought but since you can get up there how about pushing the foam back in place and screwing straps all across the foam and to each joist to keep it from sagging?

 

[sweetk30]

in my shop i had the shop ceiling spray foamed closed cell . no problems yet 3+ years .

i to think seeing your pics some weird problem with the foam sprayed on what ever that was is the problem .

if you spray the ceiling like i did you will be good if not better on heat use . why heat / cool the space you dont use .

also call them up and talk it out and get a HARD date on show up to fix it . . . . . speaking of this i should call my guy about my foam filled walls shrinking and dropping out . . . .

 

[scottydosnntkno]

You have to be losing heat somewhere else other than the roof. Or letting in massive amounts of cold air for your heat to run all the time.

Even in a leaky uninsulated garage, most any forced air heat given even time to warm up the building will eventually cycle on and off like a furnace as the building loses heat

With a metal ceiling, and foamed walls, there should not be enough air leaked into the attic to cause your thermostat to run that often. Not without an ohd being open.

A couple questions being a barn.

How tall are the Ceilings and how high is the tstat mounted? It can be 85 up at the ceiling at 14’, and 40 down 12” off the slab.

Which brings up #2. Do you have any air circulation other than the furnace itself? Like no 1, the heat sits up high. Your stat on the other side of the building may never see enough heat if you don’t have 2-3 large fans on the ceiling, circulating the hot air around.

Air circulation in garages is typically terrible when they’re heated. People hang a heater and wonder why it’s 15 degrees by the garage door with snow blowing under the seal. And 80 around the heater.

My own personal garage, well one of two attached ones is 30x50x13’ ceilings. Two walls and the ceiling all butts against interior heated space. It is heated with a residential furnace with 16” spiral duct ran the 50’ length at ceiling height.when we built it, On the platform to the house, 7 steps up, it could be 85 degrees because the stat mounted 5’ off the ground isn’t feeling the heat because it’s not circulating, and there was snow blowing under the garage door corners. I installed a 9’ ceiling fan, that moves like 14,000cfm for $500 run all winter and now the garage is more comfortable then the house with the airflow. Everything is evenly warm, the top, bottom, and even the slab stairs warm enough to melt the snow outside 12” from the wall.

While the insulation is a factor, thermostat placement, and air leakage, airflow(or lack thereof) is a much bigger player in your heat running non stop without leaving a door open.

 

[ard]

you put in 2 and 3 inches of foam, so R12 and R18?

That may be the reason for your heating costs......


IMO this structure needs an analysis by a qualified expert- for insulation, air infiltration and vapor barriers.

 

[Bretny]

Just a thought but since you can get up there how about pushing the foam back in place and screwing straps all across the foam and to each joist to keep it from sagging?

That would prob work but would you pay a premium for spray foam then want to rig it up with strapping? I wouldnt. But in the end strapping the whole roof then spraying over that may keep whats there up and the new foam would be better attached via the strapping.


Whats the black material that is pulling away from the roof? Tar paper? Plastic? Some other underlayment?

I guess theres something to be said about even a thin plywood roof decking.

 

[skippydoo]

That would prob work but would you pay a premium for spray foam then want to rig it up with strapping? I wouldnt. But in the end strapping the whole roof then spraying over that may keep whats there up and the new foam would be better attached via the strapping.


Whats the black material that is pulling away from the roof? Tar paper? Plastic? Some other underlayment?

I guess theres something to be said about even a thin plywood roof decking.

Here is what's under the metal, Roloshield 25. I have a call into BASF. I want someone to come and give me an expert opinion and test the foam. I also am getting quotes on ripping all the roof foam out and redoing it. I got screwed yesterday, drove home 1.5 hours to meet a contractor knowing I had to go drive back to the same area for a emergency call at work, NO SHOW. They could of at least called and said I'm sorry, not going to make it today.
https://www.levisbuildingcomponents.com/roloshield-comparison

 

[BillK]

Here is what's under the metal, Roloshield 25. I have a call into BASF. I want someone to come and give me an expert opinion and test the foam. I also am getting quotes on ripping all the roof foam out and redoing it. I got screwed yesterday, drove home 1.5 hours to meet a contractor knowing I had to go drive back to the same area for a emergency call at work, NO SHOW. They could of at least called and said I'm sorry, not going to make it today.
https://www.levisbuildingcomponents.com/roloshield-comparison

Something definitely does not look right there. Unless I am totally wrong the underlayment should be on top of the metal roof purlins, right against the metal. I think getting the BASF guys out is a smart idea. I would wonder if the entire installation is done properly. Might not be a bad idea to get a metal roof expert to look also.

 

[Superbec]

it looks like the foam was sprayed over the membrane (roloshield) and the membrane failed to hold the weight of the foam , I don't get it why you have a membrane over there it's a steel roof so vapor closed anyway .

from what I can see it would take 3-4 hours work $50 in wood and $20 in wood screws to fix it ... and a few foam cans and just reuse that foam that you already paid for.

 

[WNYflyer]

it looks like the foam was sprayed over the membrane (roloshield) and the membrane failed to hold the weight of the foam , I don't get it why you have a membrane over there it's a steel roof so vapor closed anyway .

from what I can see it would take 3-4 hours work $50 in wood and $20 in wood screws to fix it ... and a few foam cans and just reuse that foam that you already paid for.

Looks that way to me also, assuming the construction from the top down is steel roofing/Roloshield/BASF Insulation. If that is the case it looks like a contractor problem rather than an insulation product problem.

 

[PWC Repair]

The problem there is the Roloshield. As foam cures it shrinks up worse than concrete. If the foam was stuck right to the metal it would have grip, a bond, across the entire surface and most shrinking would have occured in the thickness instead of the face area. The black stuff allowed the foam to shrink and pull in from any and everywhere putting all the stress right at the only only surface where it was actually attached....the truss edges......where it failed. Of course there is nothing left mechanically attaching it to the ceiling so it's going to fall down.

 

[Bretny]

Skippydoo. I would make sure you schedule another day with that same contractor and not show up your self. Also never use him, if he cant show up the first time what makes you think hes going to show up the 2nd or if he gets the job.

I can get you guys giving advise on how to repair whats there but this man paid for a hands off finished job and didnt get what hes paid for. I do all my own work, asside from spray foam and seamless gutters and theres no way i would be accepting this job on my own property

 

[PNWguy]

Hopefully it won't go to court, but if it does I'd take copies of the heating bill showing how much it's gone up. Include the extra costs in the case.

Every month he delays you is more money out of your pocket.

 

[KenC]

Is that stuff nailed or stapled to the bottom of the purlins? If so, that is the issue as it is an underlayment that belongs on top directly below the metal.

It is not intended to support the weight of the insulation hanging from it.

 

[BillK]

Is that stuff nailed or stapled to the bottom of the purlins? If so, that is the issue as it is an underlayment that belongs on top directly below the metal.

It is not intended to support the weight of the insulation hanging from it.

Thats what I said in my reply above. I dont think the roof job was done properly at all.

 

[ard]

Something definitely does not look right there. Unless I am totally wrong the underlayment should be on top of the metal roof purlins, right against the metal. .

Yup, my read too.

With any roof, there is a chance fir water, wind blown moisture, to get past the top layer...so you lay down a waterproof membrane: 15,30lb felt, etc etc

Putting that layer under the purlins, under the roofing wood, seems wrong

 

[ard]

from what I can see it would take 3-4 hours work $50 in wood and $20 in wood screws to fix it ... and a few foam cans and just reuse that foam that you already paid for.

Did you see the pictures?!? Limited crawl space. Barely fit a body, with a light gauge metal ceiling on the underside. '3-4 hrs'????

 

[Superbec]

Did you see the pictures?!? Limited crawl space. Barely fit a body, with a light gauge metal ceiling on the underside. '3-4 hrs'????

can't be sure of how big the space is but doesn't look impossible , if someone went in there to spray the foame I'm sure it's possible to fix the problem

it all depends on what the op wants , fix the problem, have it fixed by the original contractor or get another contractor to clean and respray ...

!!!

 

[ford33]

Why should the homeowner be responsible for fixing this issue? He paid a "professional" to install foam insulation and the professional failed to analyze the job requirements and perform the work correctly. Responsibility is with the installer.

OP, I hope you have a written agreement and a bill of sale. This will help during discussions with the professional, lawyer or mediator. If you don't have something in writing I think you are at the mercy of the installer to make it right. If you have nothing in writing, then post your opinion of the company's work with pictures on public sites such as Angie's list, BBB, on the contractor website and on this site. A little public shaming in lieu of lawyers sometimes works.

This is another example why it is necessary to protect your rights as a consumer and insist on proper contracts and invoices and proof of license and insurance for work done by others in your home.

 

[ard]

can't be sure of how big the space is but doesn't look impossible , if someone went in there to spray the foame I'm sure it's possible to fix the problem

it all depends on what the op wants , fix the problem, have it fixed by the original contractor or get another contractor to clean and respray ...
!!!

im just saying you downplayed it w/ 3-4 hrs.

In OPs first post he explains the foam was sprayed and THEN the ceiling installed. nobody 'got in there to spray it'.

IMO this is a bigger issue than some foam falling down. Id consider insulating the ceiling (not roof deck) after a proper vapor barrier is installed. Let the roof be a cold roof.

Either way this isnt an easy fix

 

[Superbec]

im just saying you downplayed it w/ 3-4 hrs.


Either way this isnt an easy fix

isn't an easy fix because you want it to be hard

be the solution not the problem

 

[skippydoo]

Had a spray foam contractor stop by today. I wasn't home, but my daughter was there and let him in. He called my issue a disaster! He said the foam shrunk, but can't say why it shrunk. He also said the foam will need to be removed which is a major project. I was told in order to do it , either the roof needs to come off or ceiling needs to come down and he estimated it to be a 12-18k job. Still hoping the guys who did it show up.

 

[LOW1]

im just saying you downplayed it w/ 3-4 hrs.

In OPs first post he explains the foam was sprayed and THEN the ceiling installed. nobody 'got in there to spray it'.

IMO this is a bigger issue than some foam falling down. Id consider insulating the ceiling (not roof deck) after a proper vapor barrier is installed. Let the roof be a cold roof.

Either way this isnt an easy fix

All good advice. But at the end of the day you rely on the integrity of the contractor once you pay the guy. A prepayment thorough inspection is always a good idea.

 

[dcg9381]

Dirty reality of contractors around here (insulation):

• No license Required.
• Services are in demand and contractors can be selective
• "Show me your insurance" (assuming they do so) means nothing without calling to verify "currently insured"
• A $20k mistake like this - it's going to be easier to avoid the OP than it is to go back and fix it
• A judgement in a civil lawsuit against the business - another series of legal actions would be required to garnish an account (if you can find it)
• Easy to start over with new business / new name
• What the contractor did is a civil issue. He can fold this business, start a new one without a -20k balance sheet.
• A "legit business" with liability insurance, etc - costs more - perhaps substantially more and bids are reflected as such

 

[SGKent]

Because of the money that might be involved to fix it, I might:

1. Do a quick check to be sure my paperwork is in order - put it in a manila folder and start making notes - when you called, what was discussed, etc. Keep a record every time you call or talk with him.

2. Do a search on the NJ government websites to see what licenses he holds, and if he is in good standing.

3. Keep an open mind, I doubt if this was intentional. That doesn't get him off the hook but he probably wants and needs this problem about like you do - zip.

4. Try to find out where his business is, does he work out of home? Does he own the home? Does he work out of a rented space? How long has he been doing this? What kind of other complaints have been lodged against him?

5. Did you get paperwork from him when he bid the job to show he had insurance? Whom is it thru? Can you call them and verify the policy is in force?

6. When you have your ducks in a row go pay an attorney to write him a letter specifying what the problem is and how you want it fixed. So far it appears he isn't making any attempts in good faith to find a solution so contacting an attorney to send a letter is a reasonable thing to do.

7. If he continues to stick his head in the sand then you will have to make a decision to take the loss or go after him. Find where his assets are first. If he is a DIY guy without a license who works odd jobs off Craigslist for extra cash then you may not be able to recover anything. If this is the case, ask your tax person if there is a way to declare this a casualty and write it off. I doubt if your own insurance would do anything to help but you can read the policy and ask.

 

[scottydosnntkno]

How warm are you trying to heat the barn also? Taking the edge off at 50 degrees, or trying to maintain 70 degrees all winter?

2-3 inches of foam isn’t going to be enough to stop the heat loss at 70 degrees at only r14-r18. Minimum heated roof insulation is r49(at least in MI) so your at about a third of that.

Spray foam is great for stopping drafts and overall efficiency, but it’s not a miracle product, you still need the proper r values for your building design.

If your wanted to fully heat the building, your heat load calculator, if one was even done, probably planned on r19 walls, and r 49 ceilings then you would have an expected btu loss designated. Say 110k btus for a building that size.

When you shorted the insulation, your building may be losing 120k btus an hour so your furnace can never catch up. You could step up to a 160-200k btu industrial furnace, which would put out enough heat to get it to temp, but your still losing a massive amount of fuel energy being underinsulated so your fuel costs will still be high

 

[Errol Wentworth]

I have no doubt your spray foam insulation is part of the problem.
But given the cost when radiant turned on, I am left to ask: how is the radiant insulated. Assuming this is a slab, most folks in colder climates would want a minimum 2" EPS board, with special attention to the perimeter (thermal beak).