Separating Clean Work From Dirty Work

[Zengineer]

I figured with the OCD nature of this site and its posters, someone must have some suggestions for this.

I'm in the preliminary design portion of my (bigger) garage build. Right now I have the 24'x16' linked in my signature. I plan for the next one to be around 1000sqft, and once built will give up the current garage to bicycles, tricycles, golf clubs, skis and the family car.

Here is my challenge. I am combining the following work process areas in the new garage:

• Machining
• Woodwork
• Welding/Blacksmithing
• Automotive
• Cleanish work - Engine building, electronics, etc.
• Office space

Cramming all this into 1000sqft is becoming a challenge, and how to separate the dirty processes (Woodwork, welding, blacksmithing) from the clean work (machining, engine building, automotive, office) is nearly making me lose sleep at night.

What I have planned for so far is:

• Office: 100sqft (enclosed space)
• Welding/Grinding: 150sqft (enclosed space)
• Machining/Automotive: 750sqft (open space)
• Blacksmithing: Lean-to outside with door to welding/grinding room

I'm more of a carpenter these days than a woodworker, so the woodworking equipment is pretty much a tablesaw, mitresaw, and small power tools. I could stash them away and only pull them out when needed... but I don't want to cover any of these areas with sawdust.

I know there have been threads like this before:
http://www.garagejournal.com/forum/showthread.php?t=174239

But not a lot of people that have done it. A_PMech has really shown the only solution I've seen so far, but he doesn't have the automotive area. Anyone have some pics to show how they did it?

Those that have gone through this conundrum, I'd appreciate a little of your shared wisdom. Thank you!

 

[Chaznsc]

Have you considered sliding partitions?

 

[Spam16v]

I'll do anything in one space, and can mitigate messes. Everything EXCEPT woodwork... how I despise thee and the mess it creates.

 

[retDAC]

I sure would try to keep the sawdust, oil/grease, and sparks/hot metal bits walled off from each other.

 

[Zengineer]

Have you considered sliding partitions?

Yes I sure have. I think there is a place for them, but I'm not sure in exactly what capacity yet. The more reading I do, the more I think that a good dust collection system on the table saw and miter saw will address most of those concerns.

My biggest challenge is that I want a functional 1000sqft garage when I'm done, not five 200sqft spaces! I might as well just build a shed for each if that is the end game.

 

[Zengineer]

Here is where I am at so far.

The area on the left side represents a concrete slab with overhang, where the forge area is. This also houses the dust collection and compressor room. Table and miter saw in orange. Lathe, mill, bandsaw in grey. The area outside the office that looks like a ladder is a material storage rack.

Still some issues to resolve:

1) the overall shop size is too big for the space I have available. I'm at 32'x46' here, plus another 10' for the outside slab. I need to keep the footprint under 30'x40'
2) Lathe and tablesaw too close together. Tablesaw is mobile though, so I could pull it out as needed.
3) Workbenches - Not sure there are enough or where I'd put more.

 

[firecracker]

I feel for you pal, I've had this problem all my working life, I did have a complete seperate woodwork shop which was 5mins down the road, that helped with the mess. The workshop has now gone so I have a shed to work on the dusty jobs out back.

 

[Zengineer]

Anyone have comments on the layout?

 

[mayday0017]

I like the setup, it looks very functional and think you will do pretty good at keeping things somewhat clean.

 

[DCarr]

I used to do a lot of automotive work and wood work in a single car garage. I had to do an extremly good clean up in between differant projects. I didnt want dust in an engine I was building or oil on a wood project. I had a piece of plywood I layed on top of an oil / grease stained workbench when I did wood work and put it aside when doing automotive work.

Now I have a shop large enough to do what ever, but its still just 1 room ... a 1,200 sq. ft. one so I still do a good cleaning and a lot of vacumming before an engine build.

 

[Cardboard Man]

The overall layout is good, but I can tell you from experience that it looks like the workbench/cabinets that are along the right side wall will crowd out that side of the lift. I put my lift about that close to the wall in my shop, and wish I had given myself another 2 feet or so. To counter this I have installed some Jack Olsen-inspired fold-down workbenches. You might consider this as an option if you have the room after you trim the building down to your 40' footprint. Also instead of using base cabinets, you could mount cabinets higher up on the wall (like a kitchen). Those coupled with the fold-down workbench will free up much needed floorspace.

To address your lack of workbenches, I would suggest a rolling work table, not too big, maybe 3'x5'. Something that can be left in that open area between the parked car and the lift most of the time, and moved either out of the way or to another part of the shop where you might be working. In addition to the service cart I use when working on a vehicle, I use a Workmate with a piece of plywood clamped in it as a portable work table that I can break down in about 10 seconds if I need more room.

As far as places where you can shave off some footage to get to your 40' goal, it looks like the area where you show what I'm assuming is a ladder to a loft has a bit of wasted space, and although it's very nice (comfortable), it looks like the office and washroom are a bit too big considering your other constraints.

You could always install a rod along the ceiling between the woodworking stuff and the cars and hang a curtain (poly, or tarp). This wouldn't be strictly dust proof, but it would serve as a barrier and you could leave it rolled up most of the time. I would avoid adding any more walls in that space, you want it to be as versatile as possible to accommodate changing needs.

 

[NUTTSGT]

I think I would try to separate the cleaner work(auto/woodworking) from the dirty metal working stuff. If you put the table saw and the other "orange tool" (wood lathe/jointer?) on mobile bases where they can be stacked in a corner along the wall. They can be pulled out when needed.

I have my band saw, miter saw and table saw all mobile so they can be easily moved when needed.

Consider using a pocket door for the washroom, it may allow you to turn the sink 90 degrees, freeing up more floor space.

 

[djjsr]

I'm fortunate enough to have a lot of space and having a separate area for woodworking tools was a high priority. I walled off a room 12x18, installed a dust collector and an air filter. The doors for this room stay closed whenever I'm running equipment and the air filter stays running for a while when I'm done.

It works good for keeping sawdust out of the rest of the workshop but I should have made the room bigger, maybe 14x24 or more.

 

[Aberdale]

I'm not sure how successful you will be with only 1000 sq. ft.

I currently have 1200 sq. ft. solely for automotive and machining, 1200 sq. ft. for a "clean room" and painting, and 750 sq. ft. for a woodshop. In addition, I have a 2400 sq. ft. storage barn for projects and materials, and a 400 sq. ft. garden shed for mowers, stick tools, fertilizer and lawn stuff. On top of that, I have a 3 car garage just for parking cars and motorcycles.

Oddly enough, even with all that separated space, I still get dirt in the clean room, sawdust in the automotive area, and dirt and paint overspray in the woodshop. Perhaps at the end of the day I am just a slob, or not careful enough. However, I believe that in the end, no matter how well you plan, **** happens.

'dale

 

[Zengineer]

Slowly getting it down to size.

The outside concrete pad is now 8' wide instead of 10'. No loss of functionality there.

The shop is down from 46' to 40' wide. Things are tighter, but perhaps more functional in some ways. I made a dedicated workbench area in exchange for having the woodworking machines setup at all times. They are project use and occasional use, so if I have to pull them out and hook up dust collection to use them, that might not be a terrible tradeoff.

Lost 1 sink, so now the only one is the one in the bathroom. Not the end of the world, it will be a heavy duty/commercial sink, not a typical bathroom sink.

Office, bathroom and dirty room all shrunk down a fair bit. To add the illusion of more space, I may consider removing the inner double doors, and making it into an archway with heavy welding curtains. Not 100% convinced about dust control that way however. If I put a large exhaust fan in the dirty room though, the negative pressure it creates should keep particules from flying out the door.

Shrunk my smaller door size to 7'x9' too, rather than 8'x10'. As its next to the material storage racking (the ladder) that bay will likely be used to load and unload steel or lumber. The material storage area will be dual duty lumber/steel storage.

Still forced to keep the horizontal band saw in the middle a bit, as the jib crane should access it, the mill and the lathe in its arc.

The feedback so far has been great, keep it coming please!

 

[turbowoodworker]

I like your design and its refinements as seen in the second layout. I am building a detached 28x56 foot workshop. I have a 3 car attached for the car parking (make wife happy). I have plans to divide the 56 ft space in half, essentially 2 2car units with garage bays/lift in one. That is where I will do automotive/fab and metal work. Welding stuff is on wheels and will be done outside through the garage door only.
The remaining side will be woodshop with cyclone dust collection and will act as a separate unit. No large doors on wood side. I just want to keep wood dust away from the metal side.

 

[larry_g]

I concur with the above poster that suggests that the mill and lathe belong in a clean area. Any machine with a 'way' slide bearing will require the utmost of cleanliness. Any wood, metal, or abrasive dust will ruin the precision of the machine. In my shop I enclosed the machine shop area and have a bigger area that contains the wood and metal cutting and grinding areas. Have you given thought to having the office area on a mezzanine?

lg
no neat sig line

 

[ADSR]

I do like the layout, but the band saw looks like it needs a different home. I'm guessing the wood tools in orange are just there for storage?

I'm thinking you might want to put the dust collector and compressor outside in a small lean to room. This opens other options out for the forge room. Sucking dust from one side of the room to the other isn't the best bet. Also much less noise.

Are you building it yourself, or sending it out for bid?

 

[Torque1st]

I would swap the woodworking area with the office & washroom space.

Roll-up curtains help a lot.

 

[larry_g]

On a second look at your layout I find that you have put a material rack in the middle of the room. I had one located as you have and found that it grows in width over time. So unless your fastidious with keeping things neat (I'm not) I would suggest that your think about that one. Do you have a tendency to put things just inside the door? If you do then that rack will grow with things leaned up against it or put on the floor just beside it.

lg
no neat sig line

 

[Zengineer]

Now there is some of the discussion I was hoping for when I started the thread.

I'm not sure how successful you will be with only 1000 sq. ft.

More successful than I am currently, achieving all this in 384sqft.

I concur with the above poster that suggests that the mill and lathe belong in a clean area. Any machine with a 'way' slide bearing will require the utmost of cleanliness.

I hear you. A good dust collector is envisioned, hooked to any machine that makes sawdust. In addition, an air scrubber style HEPA rated filter would be installed in the space to filter out contaminants over time. I also cover my machine tools when not in use, so that dust doesn't settle on them. Is it perfect, no. But I think its workable. If A_Pmech can have success with that kind of setup with the machine tools he has, I'm pretty sure I can make it work for me.

I'm thinking you might want to put the dust collector and compressor outside in a small lean to room.

Actually that's what they are in on these drawings. The area to the left of the dirty room is a covered concrete pad, with no walls. The compressor and dust extractor are in a shed outside of the main shop.

Have you given thought to having the office area on a mezzanine?

Sure have. Its not a bad idea at all. I'm not yet sure if I would go with 16' walls in this case though, so it might be a bit of a challenge.

I would swap the woodworking area with the office & washroom space.

ie: put the machines in the rooms and the toilet out in the open? Hmmm....

Do you have a tendency to put things just inside the door? If you do then that rack will grow with things leaned up against it or put on the floor just beside it.

A fair warning. I'm half-assed diligent when it comes to organization. My thought was that I could make this rack also house all my off cut and ends storage as well, so they would be in a "neat" place to begin with.

Material rack against the wall would be a better scenario, I could probably achieve that without changing the footprint much. However, the jib crane is close to the machine tools and bandsaw for moving heavy billets, and the bandsaw is close to the material rack for the same purpose.

 

[Grayguy]

The office/washroom seem like a waste of space in this size shop.

 

[A_Pmech]

All you really need to do is cover your metalworking machines when you do any substantial amount of woodworking and put away or cover your woodworking machines whenever you do metal work. By putting up a bunch of walls you're reducing the versatility of the space.

As far as grinding and such goes, no partition is really needed. Just do it in an area away from machines. This is how every machine shop I've ever been in handles the problem, including mine. At most, use a fume extractor when you weld. The level of airborne abrasives is too low to worry about.

There's no real need for a "clean" room. GM assembles engines in the same big building where they machine a thousand blocks a day. It's a fair assumption that most hobby engine builders assemble their engines in cleaner conditions than when they were originally built. As long as you take basic steps to cover your in-progress work while you do other things, it will be fine.

It's nice to imagine what you could do with a new space by playing the layout game, but I've never found the practice very productive. If you're designing an engine assembly line that's one thing. But a general shop space? Rearrange the big stuff until it fits, then put the smaller stuff into the gaps. Short of building a 3-d model it's the most efficient way to maximize a small space that I've found.

 

[NUTTSGT]

I like your refinements, maybe I can add more.

Turn your lathe so it's back is in the opposite corner as the mill, something like a 90° clockwise rotation. It'll put your "man" back to back with the other "man". It'll also create more open/usable floor space between the machines.

Put your horizontal bandsaw on a mobile base, when not in use, it can fit right between the mill and lathe, further opening up more floor space.

What about putting your material rack (I'm not sure what that compromises of) on the back side of your work bench ? Do you need access to both sides of the rack or just one side ?

Sliding door between the open shop and the dirty room ? It should fit along the washroom wall or behind the mill (under the jib crane?) If you rotate the lathe (like I suggested above) that red tool box(?) should fit nicely between the two machines under the window.

Personally, I would lose some of the windows. Having some many windows allows for prying eyes and more places that those lowlifes can make entry through. Also if you're pushed for space, those windows may be taking up valuable wall space.

 

[1bsman]

Here is my take.

Move the jib crane to where the miter saw is currently. Then move the mill to the corner where the table saw is. Set the lathe against the wall where the fixed cabinets are located. With the jib crane moved, it can access the 2 post lift for pulling engines or offloading a backed in pickup. The jib would still reach the mill and lathe. Another benefit is the metal tools will be further from the dirty room and their wiring will be against walls.

I would also consider removing the bathroom door and relocating it to between the couch and desk. Make the access through the office only. The office would create a changing room as well. Removing the door to the main floor area also creates additional wall space for tool boxes or shelving.

Can the material storage be outside or perhaps above the bath and office? I would try to put the bandsaw near the material. Possibly move the tablesaw and miterbox to where the material rack is located. This way you have a large work space with the second car pulled out for ripping plywood or long pieces of lumber, especially if the garage door is open.

I find myself removing fixed workbenches from my garage. Flat space becomes cluttered quickly. A closet for cased tools works well for some people. I use a wheeled tool cabinet that is approx 5'w x 5't x 26"d. and it can hold a lot of cased tools. Stacking upward is a better use of space than spreading outward. A single flat bench on wheels might be more versatile and will force you to address clutter.

 

[Zengineer]

The office/washroom seem like a waste of space in this size shop.

The office is one of the "deliverables" from the wife, as we don't have a very big house. We're both planning some additional education, and we need a quiet place to work to do that. Nothing else in this garage is done with her in mind, it's a small token. The washroom is there for 2 reasons. 1) I have running water in my garage now and use it constantly. 2) the garage is a fair distance from the house.

All you really need to do is cover your metalworking machines when you do any substantial amount of woodworking and put away or cover your woodworking machines whenever you do metal work.

That is great to hear. Essentially what I am doing now, but minus the dust collection.

As far as grinding and such goes, no partition is really needed. Just do it in an area away from machines.

I also don't really want a layer of carbide dust over the cars when parked in there... or over the whole shop. Plus some of my other "dirty" operations in that room will be spray painting. It's the "I don't give a **** what I do to it" room, the rest of the shop should be quite clean most of the time.

There's no real need for a "clean" room.

Totally agree. I've built a lot of engines in my shops and never found that I couldn't do it cleanly. You are bang on about GM powertrain, spent a lovely evening there myself!

It's nice to imagine what you could do with a new space by playing the layout game, but I've never found the practice very productive.

I've got to plan... even if its no where near what happens in reality I find the exercise worthwhile. I'm slowly proving to myself through planning that the 800sqft garage I told the wife I wanted to build isn't going to cut it.

Turn your lathe so it's back is in the opposite corner as the mill, something like a 90° clockwise rotation. It'll put your "man" back to back with the other "man". It'll also create more open/usable floor space between the machines.

My lathe has too much **** on the backside to shroud it from access. All my oiling, coolant, etc. is all mounted back there and I need daily access to it, hence the layout.

Put your horizontal bandsaw on a mobile base, when not in use, it can fit right between the mill and lathe, further opening up more floor space.

The mobile base is a great idea. I'm sure I can find a place to tuck it when not in use.

What about putting your material rack (I'm not sure what that compromises of) on the back side of your work bench ? Do you need access to both sides of the rack or just one side ?

The material rack is 16' long, I think a bit too long for that area. One side will be steel, the other side will be wood storage. Sheet goods and off cuts will be incorporated also.

Sliding door between the open shop and the dirty room ?

Hell ya, great suggestion. Cheaper, easier and more versatile than the doubles!

Having some many windows allows for prying eyes and more places that those lowlifes can make entry through.

Not worried about prying eyes in my area. However, while I want it bright with daylight, I haven't decided exactly how I am going to accomplish this yet. If I go high enough with the ceiling it will be a long row of transom windows on the right hand wall (south), which prevents the prying eye issue. Otherwise I might go skylight. The windows at ground level will only be the ones that face my yard.

Great info everyone!

 

[Steevo]

I like your refinements, maybe I can add more.

Turn your lathe so it's back is in the opposite corner as the mill, something like a 90° clockwise rotation. It'll put your "man" back to back with the other "man". It'll also create more open/usable floor space between the machines.

I found that I always want the headstock end of the lathe "pointed" into open space, so that long stock can be slid through without obstruction. If a lathe has to be 90º to a wall. I want the tail stock end to the wall. YMMV

 

[wornoutoldman]

From the "now for something completely different" camp. Have you considered a 5 seperate sheds 12 or 14 in width with varying depths arranged in a pentagram? This would give 6 distinctly different work areas by roofing the center space and IMHO would be super cool. Although your neighbors and possibly/probably many/most GJ members may not agree.

 

[A_Pmech]

That is great to hear. Essentially what I am doing now, but minus the dust collection.

The dust collection will solve your problem. However, I suggest you locate the collector away from the air compressor, or relocate the air intake for the compressor.

Also, you need a good cyclonic collector with a cartridge filter to keep the dust level under control. My portable collector lets a lot of the fines back into the air. Thus, it goes outside the door a ways when I'm working.

I also don't really want a layer of carbide dust over the cars when parked in there... or over the whole shop. Plus some of my other "dirty" operations in that room will be spray painting. It's the "I don't give a **** what I do to it" room, the rest of the shop should be quite clean most of the time.

Ahh, I didn't think about parked cars...

I've got to plan... even if its no where near what happens in reality I find the exercise worthwhile. I'm slowly proving to myself through planning that the 800sqft garage I told the wife I wanted to build isn't going to cut it.

It can be. However, I found every time I re-arranged my shop it was easier to just use the skates and pallet jack. The last re-arrangement tested my ability to cram stuff into the space. I still have room for more machines - in my head. 6 inches here, a foot there and suddenly there's room for that Dixi 75 I so desperately want.

I would separate your welding room by a concrete wall and use a steel roof. That minimizes the chances for a fire problem. Bwaaahahah!

 

[Richard D]

The office is one of the "deliverables" from the wife, as we don't have a very big house. We're both planning some additional education, and we need a quiet place to work to do that. Nothing else in this garage is done with her in mind, it's a small token.

Next to the shop? Ain't gonna happen. No way you are both gonna want to study only(maybe never?)at the same time. She'll wanna study whyle you are running a grinder, skill saw, etc. She's not gonna want to use the dirty *** garage bathroom, either. Plan on more trips to the florist or jewelry store than the hardware store.

 

[Torque1st]

ie: put the machines in the rooms and the toilet out in the open? Hmmm....

Think again, very hard and constructively. I know it can be difficult for some people to get certain preconceived notions out of their heads but try anyway.

Others have proposed many good ideas and proposals in this thread for locating equipment. Sit back with a clean sheet of paper and read all the posts again.

 

[Zengineer]

Think again, very hard and constructively. I know it can be difficult for some people to get certain preconceived notions out of their heads but try anyway.

Others have proposed many good ideas and proposals in this thread for locating equipment. Sit back with a clean sheet of paper and read all the posts again.

No need to get your knickers in a knot. I'm a pretty open minded guy, I was hoping that my note might lead you to elaborate some more on your suggestion.

 

[Zengineer]

Next to the shop? Ain't gonna happen. No way you are both gonna want to study only(maybe never?)at the same time. She'll wanna study whyle you are running a grinder, skill saw, etc. She's not gonna want to use the dirty *** garage bathroom, either. Plan on more trips to the florist or jewelry store than the hardware store.

Yeah I'm thinking like a parent of young children here. They won't always be young, and one of us won't always be looking after them while the other works. There might be some other options here, like putting the office on a mezzanine, or acoustically insulating the office very well. I had great results acoustically with my home theater, I could apply similar solutions.

As for the dirty *** bathroom... well maybe I'm a bit of a neat freak, but my bathrooms never get that dirty.

 

[Zengineer]

Here is my take.

Move the jib crane to where the miter saw is currently. Then move the mill to the corner where the table saw is. Set the lathe against the wall where the fixed cabinets are located. With the jib crane moved, it can access the 2 post lift for pulling engines or offloading a backed in pickup. The jib would still reach the mill and lathe. Another benefit is the metal tools will be further from the dirty room and their wiring will be against walls.

I would also consider removing the bathroom door and relocating it to between the couch and desk. Make the access through the office only. The office would create a changing room as well. Removing the door to the main floor area also creates additional wall space for tool boxes or shelving.

Can the material storage be outside or perhaps above the bath and office? I would try to put the bandsaw near the material. Possibly move the tablesaw and miterbox to where the material rack is located. This way you have a large work space with the second car pulled out for ripping plywood or long pieces of lumber, especially if the garage door is open.

I find myself removing fixed workbenches from my garage. Flat space becomes cluttered quickly. A closet for cased tools works well for some people. I use a wheeled tool cabinet that is approx 5'w x 5't x 26"d. and it can hold a lot of cased tools. Stacking upward is a better use of space than spreading outward. A single flat bench on wheels might be more versatile and will force you to address clutter.

I missed this post earlier, and there are some great suggestions here. Moving the machines near the hoist may help the layout a great deal, if I abandon the notion of the jib crane and material rack being in the same arc as the machines. Maybe I can fit the rack there against the wall though which may be a win.

I thought about outside material storage, I'm a bit concerned about the humidity levels and its effect on bare steel though. Above the bath and office is a great thought, it may not house everything but I might be able to cut down the floor space I use.

I hear you about flat surfaces and clutter. I'm not sure I can do without them, but the more you have, the more chance for clutter...

 

[sanddan]

I'll do anything in one space, and can mitigate messes. Everything EXCEPT woodwork... how I despise thee and the mess it creates.

I agree 100%! I sold my table saw (which I only used maybe once a year) just so I wouldn't even be tempted to do any wood work.

 

[NUTTSGT]

I found that I always want the headstock end of the lathe "pointed" into open space, so that long stock can be slid through without obstruction. If a lathe has to be 90º to a wall. I want the tail stock end to the wall. YMMV

Good point Steevo. Z has also pointed out that he needs access to the rear of the lathe.

 

[brettwind102]

spill majic, Idk maybe they sell matt for different floor idk

 

[OctoMan]

One idea I've seen was a guy put all the dirty tools (Grinder, welder, exc.) in a separate room. All other equipment was in the main garage. The separate room had a sink and ventilation. Pretty good idea.