Septic questions

[lexcrob]

Well I purchased my first home a month ago with dreams of building my own epic garage.


I did not know anything about septic systems.

I have now read everything under the sun and talked to everyone about septic systems.

I am now very aware of my mistake.

I have talked to building codes, water protection, and the city sewer "provider".


The home I purchased is 29 years old. Septic system life in best conditions is 20-30 years I've read from several sources.
This statement is what brings me to this forum.



I had a brief conversation with water protection engineer on ----moving my field in order to build my detached---- It is pretty much a no build zone right through the middle of my yard.( Right behind my house)


I figured why not get it moved and "rebuilt" as its life is kaput anyways.
He stated that there is not enough room on my 0.63 acer lot to build a 2nd field site. That new rules simply make it to strict to move it and it can't happen.

 

[lexcrob]

Before that any septic talks with water protection I did explore the option of paying for connect to city sewer. I am in city limits and part of my subdivision is on sewer. Way down the street.....


They referred me to the engineer of the department to see if it was possible. The short version is it will cost well beyond 10,000$ for me to connect.

It will include tearing up through the entire subdivision and that I would have to get everyone "on board".

We-if they were to support it...... would be responsible for a minimum of 2/3 the cost.

At this point id pay 10k to connect just to resolve the entire problem. Beyond that I don't think I could come up with that kind of cash anytime soon.


Going door to door to ask my new neighbors to connect is out of the question. I cannot believe that was his response to my question. I then proceeded to call water protection on moving my field.

 

[lexcrob]

I am working on getting router rotter to locate the exact location of my field with a gps tracking probe. Maybe I can squeeze a small single car in a corner.


I already tried the using a rod.....even got out the shovel....its deeper than 3ft.... I even tried the coat hangers to locate water which worked partially to my surprise.

 

[lexcrob]

That is a lot of stuff up there.....



I guess my thing is its just unreal that those is my options. Who knew.......

Figured id share maybe it will save someone purchasing there first home.

thanks, Rob

 

[bgarrett]

Septic system life in best conditions is 20-30 years I've read from several sources.
.

I bought a house in 1992 that was built in 1946 and thought the septic needed improving so I dug it up and found the 50 gallon metal tank had rotted away.
It was 46 years old and still working, plus it was a SMALL tank

 

[Voi]

I don't know much about them but there are also the evapotranspiration units. My house is only 23 years old but many of the homes in my neighborhood are quite a bit older. Many of these are facing the same issues as you and their only option is an evapotranspiration unit.

There are a lot of septic systems in my area that are over 20 and even 30 years old. They're still working but in many cases people want to add onto an older house and find themselves having to upgrade their systems to modern standards. Otherwise, they are grandfathered in.

Regardless, from what I understand of them they'd be much more expensive than the 10k you mentioned to hook onto city sewer.

One thing I found about septic guys is that many of them don't fully understand the ordinances and options. We had three guys come over to consult us on ours and only one guy got it right.

 

[yeldogt]

When you get the price to move the field you will be knocking on your neighbors doors.

You don't want to spend any money on that septic system if you have hope of connecting to a city connection for 10k.


A city connection over a septic is a no brainer and worth way more than 10k on resale.

 

[earthworks]

The comment about 10k being less then a new or relocated system is correct. To replace any system is going to be expensive. probably cheaper to hook into sewer. But if that isn't an option, and your lot set backs are too restrictive for a conventional field, then think about a tertiary treatment system such as EcoFlow. They can be designed to work in tight areas and high water tables with a very small footprint, and thus can be installed on a smaller lot. And sometimes they cost the same or less because you don't need to haul in enough sand for an entire leech field.

 

[southalabama]

As along as roots don't get into the field line or the terra cotta drains aren't crushed I don't see why the life would only be 30 yrs. Mine is 45 years old and has been pumped a couple times but is still functional.

If you've got to redo your system your gonna spend half the costs of a city sewer connection.

Options. Relocate pay 5k. Sewer 10k. Do nothing but that doesn't solve problem of locating a shop.

Maybe our septic guys haven't figured out market rate in other parts of the country but they run 3500-5000 around here.

 

[yeldogt]

A typical one around me is 30k .. and not a huge one. 5k's the paperwork.

Your system most likely is fine -- they last longer than 20 years if built correctly and maintained.

We now have mandatory pumping rules around me -- it just started last month ---two or three years depending on system type.

But you can't build on or next to the field -- and relocating them requires all the permits around me. And it gets impossible if you have a private well on a small lot.

 

[holdover]

"A typical one around me is 30k" WOW here in SW VA in my rural county 3-5K if you have it done, if you do it yourself a lot less, tank, say 1500 gal, 300 or so feet of 4" drain pipe and a couple loads of # 57 gravel.. 30K , I need to trailer my backhoe to that area for a couple of jobs. Talk with a local contractor, as to a 20 life, that's bull if it was put in correctly, I did mine 39 yrs ago , not a problem, nor any of my customers either.

 

[36truck]

A typical one around me is 30k .. and not a huge one. 5k's the paperwork.

WOW that's up there. Around here $5K to $7K is normal a little more if it's on clay.
If you can get hooked to the city sewer that will give you room to build.
I don't believe you should have any issues with the existing system as long as it's working good now.

 

[Cyberbear]

In my area of California, it is mandatory when a home sells that the 1000 gallon concrete septic tank needs to be pumped, so the new owner starts fresh. The questionable part is the condition of the leach field. Some systems wrongly put kitchen drainage into the septic tank and leach field, which will over time begin to clog due to the grease usually sent down the drain. Most septic systems in our area last about forever due to the very excellent drainage of the soil. Check with your local septic system installer or pumping company, they are usually pretty well informed.

 

[R6 Racer]

A full system here will be right around $10,000.00 But apparently the sand here is perfect & there is no need to truck in special leeching sand.

The septic system at my parents old place is over 50 years old & it still works fine. I think the land its in & how it has been taken care of has a bigger effect on a septic systems longevity than time itself, maybe?

Steve

 

[jkwilson]

You can destroy a septic field with laundry lint in just a few years if soil conditions are right. And soil is the bottom line. Septic systems vary wildly as you move around. Around here, you can get one done for less than $5K easily, but for the most part if you own less than 5 acres you can't even get a permit to build one.

Talk to local septic installers and see what they say.

Also, whoever issues the permits could have information from when the system was originally installed that might be useful to you. We had to provide a scaled drawing of the field and tank location to get the permit finalized, and that is still on file in our county health department office.

 

[yeldogt]

The prices I see posted on this forum for various projects being built in other parts of the country are amazingly low .. NY/ NJ/ PA forget it .... My neighbor up the road just had to build a new sand mound and with permits it was 30k ... some need to install pumps .. and naturally they are more. I did one in 1993 and it was over 20k

Like I said .... we now have mandatory pumping. I'm going to have to replace mine with my rebuild. I have already been told it could be way over 30k as I don't have the space for a sand mound ... and you can't restore one like years ago.

Digging a new well around me is 25k

 

[Notgrownup]

Are you giving issues with drainage? , just get it pumped. Like somebody else said, call a septic system/ pumper guy....If he is ethical he will give you the correct advice,

 

[Fishplate]

Some systems wrongly put kitchen drainage into the septic tank and leach field

Where else would you put it? A pipe out to the creek?

 

[jmarkwolf]

Look on the web for a local "soil fracturing" service.

The grass over my septic field was getting very wet after about 15 years. First noticed the "wetness" on my lawn tractor tires. I thought perhaps a sprinkler head or line had broken.

The underlying soil was "beach sand" so I didn't expect my field was failing after just 15 years with just two people in the house.

Turns out the field had developed a "jello" like membrane that impeded drainage, apparently a common problem, but can't remember the technical name for it.

A neighbor knew of a service for fixing this problem, that involves compressed air to blast the "jello" apart, then putting an aeration pump to further clean the water in the tank before it goes to the field, like water treatment plants do.

I called the guy, and the first thing he did was punch a hole through the membrane in the middle of the field and you could immediately hear the water loudly gurgle as it all tried to drain out through a single small hole. It was astonishing.

Then he sunk the pole on a square grid every few feet or so, and blasted it with compressed air from a big mobile compressor, to obliterate the "jello".

Then he installed the aeration pump, about the size of a lunch box, to pump air thorugh a hose into the tank, kind of like a big aquarium air pump.

Had it done about 8 years ago, the yard dried up immediately, and the field has been working just fine ever since.

Cost was $3500 instead of the $10,000 - $15,000 it would've cost to dig a new field and fix the tear up on the irrigation system etc.

Look into it, could save you big money, did for me.

 

[SteveCh]

All this advice on how the guy can "fix" his present field does not address his real problem: wanting to build a detached. If he "fixes" his current set-up, still no room to build.

 

[Gerald O]

When I built my garage addition the location cut right across 2 of my 4 100' septic leach lines. I was able to shorten those two lines to 50' each, and then added a single new 100' line farther out to make up the difference that was lost. After the modifications I still had enough room at the back end of the lot for a backup drain field.

Maybe you could do something similar. Instead of moving the entire drain field, just move the part of the lines that are in the way.

 

[jpinca]

you need to post your location and/or ordinances for any meaningful advise.

 

[jkwilson]

Some systems wrongly put kitchen drainage into the septic tank and leach field, which will over time begin to clog due to the grease usually sent down the drain.

Most places it is required by law to put all household wastewater through the septic tank. Only a very few areas allow greywater to be used for irrigation.

 

[Fishplate]

All this advice on how the guy can "fix" his present field does not address his real problem: wanting to build a detached. If he "fixes" his current set-up, still no room to build.

He sort of left us hanging, with the idea that he can't move it and can't connect to the municipal system, and he has just over a half-acre to work with.

In the absence of facts on which to base a solution, we solve the problem we can find...

 

[lexcrob]

Clarksville, TN 37043 Montgomery County
Within city limits*

I do have the ""septic plans which are just pathetic and crude. They only locate the tank. Nothing but dotted lines. Not to scale just a couple random lines to mark the "field".

5ft off the "middle" corner of house 10ft back is tank. This pretty much puts my field across the middle of my rectangle shaped lot as my house is partially offset for the side entry basement/garage.


________________________


....house .pad

......tank

......field.......
..............................
..................................





_________________________

 

[lexcrob]

The cost to connect was stated by the sewer provider as "well beyond 10,000$ id have to talk to multiple other people to develop the cost it would take to go that route".

My shock was what do i do if my 30 year old system happens to fails (IT IS GOOD AND WORKING CURRENTLY)

Considering water protection stated I have no room for a 2nd field that will pass todays standards on such a small lot?...I don't get it...



I found this just completely absurd.*****

I then called a septic company to precisely locate my field for me. Started thinking ill just build a small one car garage and just make it work for awhile. I asked of moving the field they said refer to water protection. ^^^above

They said they would come out with their rods to locate it for me I told them I've got my own rod and a shovel.

I dug a bunch of 3ft deep hole didn't find nothing just rocks and dirt...
The rod is worthless nothing but rocks every 2inches...

So I took the lid off tank to see which direction the lines go... couldn't see anything I gave up and drank a few beers instead of digging more.



Found out that night from a construction buddy they do *gps tracked septic probing* to draw me a pinpoint map of the field.
For a mere 240$ which saves me from turing over my entire backyard.
I had dug like 3ft deep 2x5 trenches. Three of them ...never found gravel sand or pipes...

Maybe ill have enough room for a very small sad garage that I can at least go cry in thinking about how I thought id have room for a 40x40.

 

[lexcrob]

I might just run that septic stuff to the man made ditch way down in the back of the yard and never speak of this again.


Or maybe ill just have to move. Id rather slam my face against a shovel for a month than go through the home buying parade again...What a scam/joke/sneaky/slimy/greasy/ process.


Moving is not an option for a few years Ill literally loose my friken mind.

 

[lexcrob]

Im more informing and sharing information. I believe I'm on the right track on my only options at this time. Ive read a lot of stuff on here already and figured id add to help others resolve if I get mine figured out.

So lets say my septic fails like say I flush 5,000$ worth of tampons down the toilet. Or fill it with gasoline drain-o and other "greywater?" bull sh*t and light it up.


So... now my house in the city limits has no working sewage deposal...

Does that not turn into a public health problem like they have to connect me.

See where I'm going with that...... I just don't get it. What Im I gonna do when this thing does fail. OK if it ever does fail maybe it will last forever........

 

[volleyball]

It looks like you took psych 101 and now think you are a shrink. Septic systems may fail. A particular time no one can know. 1 year, 100 years.
Is it that you are just pissed because you cannot build a garage where you want? I know I ran into that problem. But as you I didn't know then what I do now.
If you put in the sewer, does everyone else get a free ride or do they give you a refund of what your neighbors paid? Most likely you won't. Maybe it is worth it to you to get your garage. I looked into it for other utilities and I am not wealthy enough to pay for the utility to collect money from me on top of it and all the others that now connect to it for "free"

 

[drivesitfar]

Lexcrob: drainfields can last many years past the 30 years old your house is with proper use. you'll have to go to the library or online to search the best methods of doing that, but simple way is not to put anything down any of the drains that won't biodegrade. also don't get on a regular pumping program because you remove all the good critters that eat all the ****.

now as far as failing the cities and counties all have a little different set of rules. for properties that have a high water table or bad drainage they might install mound systems that are about $30,000 last time i checked. if yours failed they might tell you to dig up your old one and replace it with new sand gravel and pipes which ain't cheap.

if you want to hook up to sewer if might be a good thing to get to know your neighbors and then you'll minimize your costs and get your garage.

when i moved in my house 30 years ago there wasn't gas line in front of my house and the gas company wanted $10,000 to bring it from about 300 feet down the street. i asked for options and if the other neighbors in between would commit to a gas furnace or range then we could all get gas. i got everyone on board because they had all been wanting gas for years and i got the pipe there for no cost except for my new furnace that i was going to buy anyway. heat bills went from $300 and don't turn it up past 65 with old oil furnace to $100 and 73 all day in the winter. your sewer issue is something you'll have to do a little selling of it to the neighbors or ask the county if you can build a mound system in the area they said is too small.

good luck

 

[58Yeoman]

Back when I was married the first time, we lived in a small town on a street that was two blocks long, and dead ended at each end. You had to access from the cross street in the middle. The old lady at the other end had been paying sewer charges for years, but wasn't on the sewer. Her son found out and went to the town meeting, and they had to run the sewer line to her house for no charge. Good for her.

Now, in the same town, a buddy of mine built a new car wash next to his gas station. No sewer line available for the car wash. He thought that the town should run a line from the next nearest place, across a small creek and railroad tracks. The town said no, he had to pay for it. I think what ticked him off the most was, that the small apartment building got to connect onto the sewer for 'free', as it passed that building on the way to his. He should've checked with the town before building the car wash.

 

[lexcrob]

Thanks for all the input guys.

"psych 101" - Im just pretty beat up about it.........

I had researched every waking second about everything there is to know about buying a house and missed the septic stuff.

Building the garage was almost more important then buying the house at least to me.


If I ever figure something out ill post it up. Ive also looked into other options like a pit and taking out the basement wall to have something.

cheers, Rob

 

[SouthernGemini]

I don't know if this will help but maybe mentioning this will give you "something". I'm in my third home out of four with a septic vs municipality ... and I love it. I have read every post on this thread and noticed something not mentioned but will get to that last.

1. Like SouthAlabama noted, I don't know why the life of the unit and field would be only 30 yrs. I had to do my leach bed 2 years ago tomorrow (Thanksgiving day) b/c the roots from trees I refused to cut got greedy. My fault. The other septic systems were both over 35 years old.

2. We can't use "septic systems" around here as per the professionals. We use what are called MODADs. I personally think this is splitting hairs BUT there is an ounce of truth to a difference. My home uses a design similar to Acquired Wastewater Technologies MO-DAD 2.

3. WHY does this matter? In southern Louisiana, there is no shortage of lowland or even wetland where a family may want to build. How well do you think a leech system works in a wetland environment? With more and more people encroaching on low lying areas, the parishes (we don't have counties here) have adopted the ability to SPRAY the waste water vs a leech system. This is often done via a sprinkler that kicks on once the holding tank gets full. It uses about 1/2 the area of a leech system. The key is we cannot hook up a sprinkler system to a non-aerated waste water treatment system. The water coming out of my MODAD and into my holding tank is much cleaner than what the non aerated systems put out in my previous homes.

Again, Rob, not sure if this helps but I can sense your frustration in your posts so wanted to put it out there. I do hope you find a quick and reasonable answer so you can begin to enjoy your future shop.

Good luck from southern Louisiana.

 

[Scott r c]

Can you use an aerobic system?

 

[johninct]

If and when your septic system should fail and you have no reserve area there is a simple but very expensive fix. Dig out your entire back yard and bring in new dirt. There are also a few things do that will help your system last longer. First, no garbage disposal. Pump your tank every 3 or 4 years. Try to use a reasonable amount of flushes / day and only flush down human waste and TP.

 

[theoldwizard1]

2. We can't use "septic systems" around here as per the professionals. We use what are called MODADs. I personally think this is splitting hairs BUT there is an ounce of truth to a difference. My home uses a design similar to Acquired Wastewater Technologies MO-DAD 2.

Acquired Wastewater Technologies - onsite wastewater treatment systems

the Mo-Dad 2 system has gone through strenuous testing and has met the ANSI/NSF requirement of the 1996 standards and is approved throughout the United States.

Despite what they say, I would check with my local building department !

Very interesting ! A complete aerobic wastewater treatment system in a box !

"Aerobic decomposition' is a fancy terminology for air that is pumped into the holding chamber(s) to speed up the breakdown of solids. If you are pumping air in, bad smelling air needs to be coming out somewhere ! From Wikipedia

Unlike the traditional septic system, the aerobic treatment system produces a high quality secondary effluent, which can be sterilized and used for surface irrigation. This allows much greater flexibility in the placement of the leach field, as well as cutting the required size of the leach field by as much as half.

The hole on the right must go to a leach field or holding chamber that is connected to a surface irrigation system.


If you want to use this, it will be a hard "sell job" on the local building department. I might be possible that a smaller leach field may be able to be run along each edge of your property. You will likely have to hire an engineering firm familiar with aerobic wastewater treatment system to put together a proposal for you.

 

[drivesitfar]

John: i have to disagree with the pumping of a septic tank every 3-4 years because if nothing is put down the drains that won't decompose you are taking away all the critters that eat the ****. Maybe a skimming or inspection every few years to see that the kids or guests didn't flush something into the tank like a toy or plastic/rubber product is a good idea and skim it off.

I totally agree not to have a garbage disposal grinding up food in a kitchen sink with a septic tank system.

Lex: sorry to hear you did all that research and didn't know about the septic or stop in at the local city or county's building department to ask what was required to build a garage. still might be doable if you can get sewer which would be a good upgrade to the value of your house.

ALL: I'm guessing a new system like Scott and Wizard are talking about are in the $20,000 range to build or how much?

Happy Thanksgiving!!

 

[theoldwizard1]

ALL: I'm guessing a new system like Scott and Wizard are talking about are in the $20,000 range to build or how much?

Happy Thanksgiving!!

I have no first hand experience with "aerobic wastewater treatment system" of any kind ! I only know what I read on the web.

I would guess that system would cost not much more than a new septic, likely less, because it uses a smaller field (or surface irrigation it you have the surface area and the climate). The only real addition is an air pump/fan.



The BEST solution is sewer hook up.

 

[yeldogt]

We are starting to see more and more of these complex systems -- they become almost mini treatment plants. With clay and high water ... not many options -- many of the older (20year) sand mounds are showing signs of failure.

Pumping the tanks often is very important -- the "biomass" is not removed. When you don't pump - fats and other non liquids flow into the leach field where they don't belong.

If you have a large lot and great soil the leach feels can be huge -- Some do split systems where basically two flies are built with a valve to switch them back after each pumping.

As I said above, we have mandatory pumping of two or three years subject to ongoing certification -- its around $300.00.

 

[Old Moparz]

The company I work for, a site contractor that also installs municipal sewer, gets plans regularly that include residential septic systems. We don't install them but there is one system I am seeing more often that looks like a great way to use a smaller area of the property for the leach field.

http://www.canwest-tanks.com/eljen_modules.html

I can only suggest that you talk to a local company about the price since I have no way of knowing what it might cost to install. I know my leach field is four, 100' rows of perforated PVC that dictated where I built my garage. If & when the time comes to replace it I am going to look at the modular system in the link I provided.