Service panel replacement general questions

[jlv03]

I know this topic has likely been covered in depth in the past, and I also know the correct and proper (and only!) method is to solicit the quotes of a licensed electricians, but I do want to have some ammo before that conversation even starts.

My in-laws have a SqD QO split bus (yes, really) main service panel in their garage, likely original to the 1970s build of the house. There are a few slots left available at the bottom of the panel (and one set of 240VAC at the top before the split). My concern is adding any more circuits will snowball into something more, so my thought is start with a modern panel with more spaces to begin with and branch from there.

1. I know NEC 2020 now requires an outside disconnect ahead of the inside panel, does this also apply to retrofits?
2. Same with AFCIs, also required if only changing the panel and not touching anything downstream or adding?
3. Any rough ideas on cost?
4. Anything else I am forgetting or should be aware of?

 

[Innovate1]

What's the end goal? It sounds like you are anticipating adding some circuits? For what? My question is if it's not broke why fix it? Even if you need to add a few circuits the QO panel line is not obsolete (even though the split bus is) and breakers are still available. Others more knowledgeable and experienced than me will certainly jump in to correct anything I might have wrong and give their own opinions...

 

[sparky 1971]

I know this topic has likely been covered in depth in the past, and I also know the correct and proper (and only!) method is to solicit the quotes of a licensed electricians, but I do want to have some ammo before that conversation even starts.

My in-laws have a SqD QO split bus (yes, really) main service panel in their garage, likely original to the 1970s build of the house. There are a few slots left available at the bottom of the panel (and one set of 240VAC at the top before the split). My concern is adding any more circuits will snowball into something more, so my thought is start with a modern panel with more spaces to begin with and branch from there.

1. I know NEC 2020 now requires an outside disconnect ahead of the inside panel, does this also apply to retrofits?

It's more than likely. Around here, the only way to get around it would be as a repair. If the main breaker was bad and a replacement wasn't available, changing the panel would then be considered a repair.

1. Same with AFCIs, also required if only changing the panel and not touching anything downstream or adding?

AFCI's are required when modifying a circuit that is supposed to have arc fault protection. Most places around me wouldn't require them for a panel change, but I do know of one city that considers a new breaker to be a modification and require AFCI protection. I don't do any permitted work there.

1. Any rough ideas on cost?

A lot more than you think.

1. Anything else I am forgetting or should be aware of?

Everything will depend on any ordinances the AHJ has. One city has a ton of requirements, but go to where the state has control and it's just bring whatever is permitting up to code. They almost have blinders on when they inspect.

 

[wyliesdiesels]

I know this topic has likely been covered in depth in the past, and I also know the correct and proper (and only!) method is to solicit the quotes of a licensed electricians, but I do want to have some ammo before that conversation even starts.

My in-laws have a SqD QO split bus (yes, really) main service panel in their garage, likely original to the 1970s build of the house. There are a few slots left available at the bottom of the panel (and one set of 240VAC at the top before the split). My concern is adding any more circuits will snowball into something more, so my thought is start with a modern panel with more spaces to begin with and branch from there.

1. I know NEC 2020 now requires an outside disconnect ahead of the inside panel, does this also apply to retrofits?
2. Same with AFCIs, also required if only changing the panel and not touching anything downstream or adding?
3. Any rough ideas on cost?
4. Anything else I am forgetting or should be aware of?

1) it may very well and in that case, your inside panel would become a subpanel
2) IA state board voted to eliminate some AFCI requirements in 210.12(D) and 406.4(D)(4) so you may not need AFCIs where you think you would
3) sorry cant help there. pricing varies so wildly from region to region. best thing to do is get 3 quotes...
4) im sure you are but you need to get quotes first

 

[75gmck25]

In 2013 I replaced my old QO 125 amp split panel with a new QO 30/42 space 200 amp panel. At that time the replacement cost me about $2,000 (licensed electrician). It was a little simpler because there were only about 10-12 circuits to move over to the new panel. I moved the meter to to a different wall in 2019 so they could run an underground line, and ended up paying $1,300 just to reroute to a different outside wall.

I'm not familiar with the 2020 NEC changes, but in my area we are still using the old code and you only need an outside disconnect if the panel is more than a certain distance from the meter pan (10 feet?). I would be surprised if you are already required to comply with the 2020 code, but with a panel located in a garage you may be far enough away to already need a disconnect.

 

[sparky 1971]

What is the IA location, and is the AHJ going to be city, county, or state?

 

[jlv03]

Thanks everyone for the comments and feedback.

I should have clarified in my original post, the main panel is in the garage, which is attached/part of the house (raised ranch, with bedrooms above the garage). The meter is directly on the opposite side of the wall of the garage for the main panel, so no outside disconnect needed for distance reasons.

As to the "why" for upgrading a 50 year old panel, no pressing need at this moment, just trying to get ahead of any major projects.

Pulling from memory, there are 4 spaces for 2 pole breakers above the split. One of those spaces is the 60A sub main breaker (feeding the bottom of the panel). Another space is for the oven/range, another for the AC condenser. This leaves just one 2 pole breaker space - which could be used up pretty quickly by a car charger or a change from gas to electric for either the water heater or clothes dryer.

As for spaces after the split, I want to say around five single pole breaker spaces.

I'd rather not get into too many details on location at this time.

 

[sparky 1971]

I'd rather not get into too many details on location at this time.

Then the best I can tell you is that if it's falling under the state inspections, you will have to install the exterior disconnect, but you won't have to worry about AFCI's for the existing circuits. There's no telling what a city or county might require.

 

[sparky 1971]

Here, click on your county. This should give you an idea of who you really need to be asking.

IEEB - Inspectors by County | Iowa Department of Public Safety

Adair County Agricultural Installations State of Iowa Chris Neuenkirk 641.451.5118 Rural Installations State of Iowa Chris Neuenkirk

dps.iowa.gov

 

[Norcal]

Thanks everyone for the comments and feedback.

I should have clarified in my original post, the main panel is in the garage, which is attached/part of the house (raised ranch, with bedrooms above the garage). The meter is directly on the opposite side of the wall of the garage for the main panel, so no outside disconnect needed for distance reasons.

As to the "why" for upgrading a 50 year old panel, no pressing need at this moment, just trying to get ahead of any major projects.

Pulling from memory, there are 4 spaces for 2 pole breakers above the split. One of those spaces is the 60A sub main breaker (feeding the bottom of the panel). Another space is for the oven/range, another for the AC condenser. This leaves just one 2 pole breaker space - which could be used up pretty quickly by a car charger or a change from gas to electric for either the water heater or clothes dryer.

As for spaces after the split, I want to say around five single pole breaker spaces.

I'd rather not get into too many details on location at this time.

Iowa has adopted the 2020 from what I have read, so how will a outside disco be avoided?

 

[Innovate1]

I am guessing this isn't a 200A service but not that familiar with split bus panels so I could be wrong. If you replace the panel I guessing it would be 200A and probably a service drop upgrade. Might want to check with the power company on the cost and availability of that - and the size of the current service. You could also consider switching from overhead to underground if you want ( if the existing is overhead). You could talk to the AHJ and see if they require an outside disconnect - probably will if you upgrade the service. Maybe not if you just replace the panel with a similar current rating.

Do you have any plans to add a car charger or other major loads? I understand getting ahead of things but with the price of materials and projects now it seems like you might want to just hold off until you need it. Then again everything just gets more expensive.

 

[reader2580]

My local inspector said a panel replacement would require the exterior emergency disconnect once the state went to the 2020 NEC. I replaced my panel and meter socket just before the 2020 NEC went into effect. I installed an exterior emergency disconnect when I replaced the meter socket as it was easy to do and only about $300 additional. I didn’t want to be forced to install one later when it was more work to do.

You should talk to your local electrical inspector to see if this is required.

 

[jlv03]

Iowa has adopted the 2020 from what I have read, so how will a outside disco be avoided?

Sorry, may not have been clear. There was a question or statement earlier in the thread that if the panel was inside the garage an outside disconnect would be needed due to distance. I was just clarifying that, purely for distance reasons, an outside disconnect wasn't required under NEC prior to 2020.

My question in the first post was if an outside disconnect, which does not exist now and was not needed under prior NEC requirements, is now needed. It sounds like the answer will most likely be yes.

 

[sparky 1971]

Sorry, may not have been clear. There was a question or statement earlier in the thread that if the panel was inside the garage an outside disconnect would be needed due to distance. I was just clarifying that, purely for distance reasons, an outside disconnect wasn't required under NEC prior to 2020.

My question in the first post was if an outside disconnect, which does not exist now and was not needed under prior NEC requirements, is now needed. It sounds like the answer will most likely be yes.

It's definitely a yes. Along with a surge suppressor. The outside disconnect will most likely be a meter/main combo and it will be the main panel where the bonding will take place. The panel inside will then be a sub panel. Anything else required will be up to the AHJ. If you were in DM or Polk County, it would be at least a $15,000 job because of all the extra things that are required when doing a service change.

 

[reader2580]

It's definitely a yes. Along with a surge suppressor. The outside disconnect will most likely be a meter/main combo and it will be the main panel where the bonding will take place. The panel inside will then be a sub panel. Anything else required will be up to the AHJ. If you were in DM or Polk County, it would be at least a $15,000 job because of all the extra things that are required when doing a service change.

What the heck do those counties require that pushes the cost so high?

In Oct 2020 I spent between $1,000 and $1,200 for a DIY meter base, disconnect switch, and load panel replacement. I realize DIY means no labor and I got some deals on equipment, but $15,000 seems like a lot. (Yes, it passed inspection. Power company would not have energized it otherwise.) I replaced an ITE Gould load center with a Siemens panel so I reused the breakers. I had already gone to nearly all AFCI breakers already due to previous electrical upgrades inside the house.

 

[sparky 1971]

What the heck do those counties require that pushes the cost so high?

In Oct 2020 I spent between $1,000 and $1,200 for a DIY meter base, disconnect switch, and load panel replacement. I realize DIY means no labor and I got some deals on equipment, but $15,000 seems like a lot. (Yes, it passed inspection. Power company would not have energized it otherwise.) I replaced an ITE Gould load center with a Siemens panel so I reused the breakers. I had already gone to nearly all AFCI breakers already due to previous electrical upgrades inside the house.

Here are the requirements for the City of Des Moines. Polk County, which is where DM is has the same requirements, with the addition that smoke detectors have to be installed. The attachment is kind of deceiving, in that it says "upgrade". In reality, it's any panel change that isn't classified a repair. It was pretty common for two guys to be at a house for a week when I did them. I hated doing panel changes when I was an employee, I don't do them now that I am the boss. Let someone that has some young'uns go do them.

 

[Bert_]

Here are the requirements for the City of Des Moines. Polk County, which is where DM is has the same requirements, with the addition that smoke detectors have to be installed. The attachment is kind of deceiving, in that it says "upgrade". In reality, it's any panel change that isn't classified a repair. It was pretty common for two guys to be at a house for a week when I did them. I hated doing panel changes when I was an employee, I don't do them now that I am the boss. Let someone that has some young'uns go do them.

Wow, guessing that can cause many people to put off replacement or even plain ignore failing electrical equipment.

 

[sparky 1971]

Wow, guessing that can cause many people to put off replacement or even plain ignore failing electrical equipment.

Yep. There are a whole bunch of Federal and Zinsco panels in the older parts of town. If the people could afford to upgrade their service, they could just as easily afford to move to a nicer part of town. I did a basement finish two years ago. The house had an old Federal panel and to install AFCI's, I installed a Siemens sub panel right next to it. It would have been easier to get rid of that FPE piece of garbage, but, rules are rules.