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Shed Advice

colsanders

Active member
Joined
Oct 27, 2012
Messages
35
Location
Duluth, MN
Hello All!
First off, Love the site. I spend many an hour on site. I am a carpenter by trade, which might cause some confusion. I am looking for advice on building a shed. More or less foundation questions. What did you guys use/build. My plan this summer is to build a 12x12(tentatively) shed in my back yard. MY yard slopes, and am trying to think of a plan. Living in northern minnesota, frost is a problem. So concrete blocks are out of the question. I am thinking of concrete peirs. Anyone have advice?
 
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Cyberbear

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Joined
Nov 23, 2013
Messages
1,524
Location
California
I'm on the west coast and we don't have frost or freezing problems here, but I believe you may want to consider a slab with in-ground piers at each corner with some steel reinforcement. Because of the possible cold conditions where you are located, it's best to over build a little. Ask your local building dept. for some guide lines.
 

jimgood

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Joined
Aug 4, 2014
Messages
2,394
Location
Marshall, VA
If money's no object, sure, do a slab.

The down side of an elevated frame floor is that you'll have critters taking up residence under it. But, with concrete piers, I don't see that as a significant issue. I'm considering the same.
 

lonestarky

Well-known member
Joined
Mar 28, 2011
Messages
367
Location
Lindenhurst IL
Not sure building codes cover a shed, but I suppose it depends on the size. I built my dad one here in Chicago 2 yrs ago, and i just dug 20" or so, filled with gravel, tamped, set block on that, then doweled that block to the aggregate with a masonry bit and some re-bar hammered down the hole. Then I strong tied pressure treated 2x4 for "joists" and skinned it with 3/4 pt ply. Effectively a torsion box. Was more than adequate for his needs so far, and hasn't moved an inch.

Sent from my XT1254 using Tapatalk
 

maxpower_hd

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Joined
Apr 17, 2015
Messages
2,230
Location
Massachusetts
My shed is an 8x12. We have frost issues here in Massachsuetts too and I am on a hill. Piers here, if used, have to be dug 4' down below the frost line. Once poured the shed becomes a "permanent structure" and is subject to increased property taxes.

I built a fairly strong floor, 2x8 PT 16" OC and used 3/4 ply on top. I leveled it on the lot using blocks. The front left is just a flat piece of granite about 3" thick. The others all vary with the back right corner (the lowest part of the hill) being two cinder blocks high. I did use four blocks to do it criss crossed and I dug the dirt out flat below them and added several inches of gravel under it as well and tamped it. the shed is about 16 years old. It was in it's original position for about 6 of those and I had to move it a few feet when I had a survey done and found out it was off my property a little. I releveled and used the same method and there has been no noticeable movement in the last 10 years or the previous 6. So bottom line is I wouldn't be too worried about a little movement in a shed. You can always jack and relevel if necessary.
 

Jon_E

Well-known member
Joined
Aug 19, 2015
Messages
575
Location
Southwestern Vermont
When I was a kid my father built a 16x16 shed on sloping ground, using a stiff floor system and set the whole thing on loose concrete blocks. The highest corner is set on a single block that was set flush with the ground, so he has a level spot that he can drive his lawn tractor straight in. 40 years later it is still standing and still reasonably level. I used the same technique to build a shed at my own house about 15 years ago and that too is still fairly plumb and level.

If you are concerned about frost, you could also pour sonotubes down to frost level - kind of like putting a house in a flood zone on stilts. Also look up "frost posts" or "frost piers" and you can set your shed on them. A wood floor will allow some differential movement just in bending - maybe an inch or so over 12 feet.

If you want a concrete slab then your options are limited to frost walls and a slab, or some earthmoving work and an "alaskan" type slab.
 
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CNGsaves

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Joined
Sep 26, 2012
Messages
13,233
Location
KS and OK
Lots of examples on GJ for both skid and full slab sheds. Use GOOGLE and search within GJ for various ideas:

> > > > GOOGLE > > > shed pier site:garagejournal.com
> > > > GOOGLE > > > shed foundation site:garagejournal.com
> > > > GOOGLE > > > shed slab site:garagejournal.com

. . . . etc . . . . for any combination that you are thinking about.

+1 to consider the tax consequences BEFORE you start building. Most places if shed is small enough and NOT permanently attached they can't tax you more.
 

simpler=better

Well-known member
Joined
Oct 6, 2015
Messages
499
Location
Baltimore, Maryland
Lots of examples on GJ for both skid and full slab sheds. Use GOOGLE and search within GJ for various ideas:

> > > > GOOGLE > > > shed pier site:garagejournal.com
> > > > GOOGLE > > > shed foundation site:garagejournal.com
> > > > GOOGLE > > > shed slab site:garagejournal.com

. . . . etc . . . . for any combination that you are thinking about.

+1 to consider the tax consequences BEFORE you start building. Most places if shed is small enough and NOT permanently attached they can't tax you more.

This is why I like my little shed on skids & gravel. It's not level, the groundhog lives under it, but it's 100% legal and doesn't get taxed.
 

Stuart in MN

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Joined
Sep 8, 2005
Messages
23,060
Location
Minneapolis
Putting the shed on blocks isn't necessarily a problem...it will go up and down with frost heaves, but it will return to normal once the frost is out. Chances are the vast majority of small sheds in Minnesota are built that way.

You could also go with a floating slab, many garages and outbuildings use them here without issues. Otherwise, piers will work as well.
 

Pluribus

Well-known member
Joined
Dec 16, 2012
Messages
2,143
Location
Skagit County, WA
Gravel base, large pressure treated skids, strong bracing/sheathing for shear. Bonuses are that it's movable; won't be considered a permanent structure.
 

bmk

Well-known member
Joined
Dec 24, 2012
Messages
90
Location
Minnesota, Twin Cities area
Where I build my shed the ground had about a 2 foot slope to it. So I buried sonotubes in the corners and at key points through out the middle. I had an excavator friend came over and shot it with his transom to get it level then filled them with concrete. That was 20 years ago and it still sits flat and true.
 

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bczygan

Well-known member
Joined
Nov 4, 2009
Messages
22,002
Location
DETROIT! Arsenal of Scrappers
It must be the season of shed planning. Here is another thread on the subject.
http://www.garagejournal.com/forum/showthread.php?p=5234465#post5234465

Here is some information:

Make a list of exactly what you need to store. Then do a layout of how to access everything. Decide if you want future space available. Then wrap that with a structure. Now you have the design.

Once you know exactly what you want to store, you can size the shed.

Next step is to check your zoning, and zoning rules. This will tell you what you can build without a permit, and where you can put it on your lot.

Then you need to decide if it will be a temporary or permanent floor/foundation. Tax rules and building rules for foundations will give you your options here. I prefer a permanent concrete slab, but sometimes that is taxed differently and requires a foundation. Check your requirements. Another consideration for the floor type, is how steep the ramp will be to access the shed.

Once you have all this info, and have made decisions on floor/foundation, then style is the next question. Do you want to match, complement or contrast with the house design?

Now you are ready to make a thumbnail sketch of what you are going to build.

Some design tips.

Make it a module of your building material size, IE 4x8 sheets of OSB or plywood sheathing. And make that sheathing module work vertically as well.

I also prefer steep slope roofs. 12/12 is easy to stick frame. It sheds snow and rain very well too. Where are you located?

And an overhang all around helps protect the walls. I sheathe with OSB and cover with vinyl siding, but there are cheaper methods where the finished siding is the sheathing. I like full 2x4 framing with a double top plate but you can use a single top plate if the wall framing matches the joist spacing. And 24"o.c. wall studs are fine for a shed.

Prepare the site so that all organic material is removed and a pad, or base is installed that keeps water away from the shed and gives a stable base for it.

I like to frame the ceiling with at least a 4x4 opening for access into the attic. And another way to access the attic is from an outside door in the gable end. For more attic volume you can use a Gambrel roof, but consider how the style of that works for you and the fact that is is more difficult to frame.

Use sill seal, treated lumber for the sill plate and everything below the sill plate if you use a wood floor system.

Consider a window, glazing in the door, or a skylight for natural light.

Make the door bigger than you think you need.

I like 3 tab shingles and use aluminum edge metal and #30 felt. There are more advanced roof sheathing materials than OSB available as well as other options than felt.

The style of a shed is not just in the configuration of the masses, but also in the details of how you trim it out. All buildings are just boxes, with different detailing. Choose and size and locate your door and window(s) to reflect the style you are using.

To find out exactly what it will cost, do a spreadsheet. List every item needed.

Excavation and site prep. (Pad).
Foundation and footings (Or skids) Don't forget concrete formwork and anchor bolts.
Framing materials
Trim lumber
Metal brackets and connectors
Sheathing materials and siding (If included)
Roofing materials
Windows (Or skylights) and doors
Nails (Rough and finish) and staples
Caulk and paint
Sill seal
House wrap

Electrical?

Floor framing.

Floor elevation is always a balance. You want to keep your wood framing and sheathing of the walls above surrounding grade by at least 6 or 8 inches. On the other hand, you want to keep the finished floor level as close to grade as practical, so the ramp for access is as low as possible.

This is true for a concrete slab, and even more so for a wood framed floor.

Because of this, I really dislike the two most used methods of floor framing. The first is one where you use concrete support blocks and run beams from block to block. Now, you can minimize the height of this method by burying the blocks almost completely and running the floor joists from beam to beam with joist hangers rather than putting the floor joists on top of the beams.

Some people lay down skids and then build a floor framework on top of them. This adds height that is unnecessary as well. If you start with the floor sheathing, and determine what it will span, then you have the spacing for the members needed to support it. Most sheds have OSB or plywood floors. I prefer treated 3/4" T&G plywood. This will easily span 16" o.c. joists, or a 14 1/2" space. If we carefully prepare a gravel pad for the shed, compacted and level, there is no reason we can't use the skids for those members. Using 6x6 treated lumber, spaced at 20"o.c. we have the same span for the floor sheathing. Run a treated 2x6 across the ends of all these members on either end and you have a floor frame that is also skids, without adding to the height. And frankly, you could do the same thing with 2x6 joists at 16"o.c. Joists OR skids on gravel, it's all the same. No reason to have 2 layers.

Now, to your specific foundation questions.

There are 2 ways to take care of frost.

One is to provide a foundation that goes deep enough to be beyond the frost level. Where you are, that is going to be pretty deep.

It may be a requirement that you do it that way. Check and find out. Call anonymously.

The other way is to provide good drainage, so there is no freezing and thawing below the slab, and build a floating slab. This takes careful excavation and placement and compaction of the building pad, and choice of pad material. I like angular limestone with fines compacted in lifts to above surrounding grade. Plus grading around the pad, for positive drainage. Having a sloping site, you need to cut and fill and grade as needed.

Bill
 
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