MM.... Sort of. Though I wasn't thinking about it at the time. Mostly it was a matter of trying to work with a basic shape (box) but trying to make it a bit more interesting (roof form, bracket detailing, and siding system, plus the dynamic arrangement between the two shed buildings). It's no where near as expressive or adventuristic as the Mockbee-Coker stuff. Just didn't have the budget for that.
Shed Project: New Construction Build Thread
- Thread starter lupinsea
- Start date
MM.... Sort of. Though I wasn't thinking about it at the time. Mostly it was a matter of trying to work with a basic shape (box) but trying to make it a bit more interesting (roof form, bracket detailing, and siding system, plus the dynamic arrangement between the two shed buildings). It's no where near as expressive or adventuristic as the Mockbee-Coker stuff. Just didn't have the budget for that.
Yes.
My understanding is that there needs to be a 20 ft length of #4 rebar in the footing that the (I'm mangling terminology here) grounding system / conductor can attach to (or at least 20 ft of #4 copper grounding wiring that is at the bottom of the footing). It also needs to be surrounded by a minimum of 2" of concrete.
For the small shed building (the first building the electrical will reach) the footing is 36 ft long (6ft x 12 ft foot print) and there are two bands of rebar in there that are tied together. . . . so 72 ft of run.
I also put in a system for the large shed building and that measures 10ft x 18ft, again with two bands of footing rebar connected with the Z shapes . . . so 112 ft of run.
My big concern is how to attach / bond the vertical rebar (that comes up out of the foundation wall) to the footing rebar. From what I've read in the NEC and other comments it sounds like this can be done through the normal wire ties used to attach the various rebar pieces together. But beyond that it seemed a bit vague. For instance: How many ties? Size of tie wire? Splice overlap length? Etc?
But no reference for amount of ties if you need to splice multiple pieces of rebar together (which you would have to because rebar only comes in 20 ft lengths, right?).
I also found this reference to the Delaware County's Code Compliance that calls for a minimum of two rebar wire ties. I used six triple-stranded ties.
Anyways, I haven't posted this yet to the electrical form on GJ and I should before long. Anyways, worst case is I can't use it and have to drive a grounding rod the normal way.
Rented the form panels last Friday and started setting them up this weekend.
Semi-slow process as a one-man operation. The panels are 1 1/8" MDO plywood which, a full 4x8 sheet weight over 100 lb. So the half panels are still 50+ lb. Not horrible but I need to carefully stack the panels on top of eachother and manouver them over the sharp edges of the rebar and tie wire. . . all the while dealing with a panel that was recently coated in slippery form release agent.
Fun.
Oh, and the various panel sizes tend to be more nominal than actual. Panels sizes have been varying by 1/2 - 3/4" +/- in many cases with the edge not cut square. Lots of futzing and re-cutting about 1/3 of the panels. Next time I won't design in such tight tolerances. The panels are also pretty beat up from the rental use over time. So the concrete will look a bit more "rustic".
I have about 75-80% of the panels installed but still need to plumb and square them up plus install the door buck outs and chamfer strips. Still much to do.
And the concrete truck will show up Saturday morning at 10am.
1200+ lb. worth of rented formwork panels.
Panoramic view of my back yard with the new patio off to the left and the
shed work zone straight ahead. Picture is looking straight down the access
path from the fence gate. Off to the right is material storage (on the other
side of the trailer) for the lumber and plywood that is out of the vehicular
access path.
The wall formwork is 3 ft tall and employs a 1 ft wide panel (on the bottom)
and a 2 ft wide panel (top). This shows the 1 ft wide panels set into the
clips that were nailed to the top of the footing concrete. You can see the
form ties spanning between the two panel lines that will help to hold the wall
together when the concrete is poured.
The 2 ft panels are being installed here. They are set on top of the lower
panels and sandwich the form ties. Metal "shoes" are then slipped over the
ties and hammered tight to help lock in the panels. Top spreader clips are
still needed to keep the tops of the panels from flopping out. It's tricky
because the two stacked panels aren't really stable until you get the ties and
spreader clips at the top attached to both inner and outer from panels. Lots
of precarious balancing until then.
Setting up the big shed building now. Note the 2x8 blocks set across the
lower wall panels to help support the horizontal rebar until it was tied off.
For the top band of rebar some clamps did a good job as temporary ledges
to support the rebar until it was tied off.
Working to set up the form panels on the shed building. Each panel was
coated in diesel fuel as a release agent before installation. It made handling
the panels a bit more tricky with them being slicked up. The back panel can
be seen leaning against the rebar until the panel on the saw horses is fully
coated and installed.
Working methodically around the perimeter of the foundation. The walls are
somewhat self supporting at this point but they are still wobbly. Eventually
they will be double checked for alignment and braced off.
Shot of the form cavity with the rebar running right down the middle.
This is where things are at now. The end walls were left un-finished as I cut
some wood for the door buck outs.
Some 2x8's ripped down to an exact 6" wide and then cut to length for the
door buckouts. The holes are drilled in the bottom pieces to let air escape
and (hopefully) prevent air pockets and voids under the buckouts.
.
Semi-slow process as a one-man operation. The panels are 1 1/8" MDO plywood which, a full 4x8 sheet weight over 100 lb. So the half panels are still 50+ lb. Not horrible but I need to carefully stack the panels on top of eachother and manouver them over the sharp edges of the rebar and tie wire. . . all the while dealing with a panel that was recently coated in slippery form release agent.
Fun.
Oh, and the various panel sizes tend to be more nominal than actual. Panels sizes have been varying by 1/2 - 3/4" +/- in many cases with the edge not cut square. Lots of futzing and re-cutting about 1/3 of the panels. Next time I won't design in such tight tolerances. The panels are also pretty beat up from the rental use over time. So the concrete will look a bit more "rustic".
I have about 75-80% of the panels installed but still need to plumb and square them up plus install the door buck outs and chamfer strips. Still much to do.
And the concrete truck will show up Saturday morning at 10am.
1200+ lb. worth of rented formwork panels.
Panoramic view of my back yard with the new patio off to the left and the
shed work zone straight ahead. Picture is looking straight down the access
path from the fence gate. Off to the right is material storage (on the other
side of the trailer) for the lumber and plywood that is out of the vehicular
access path.
The wall formwork is 3 ft tall and employs a 1 ft wide panel (on the bottom)
and a 2 ft wide panel (top). This shows the 1 ft wide panels set into the
clips that were nailed to the top of the footing concrete. You can see the
form ties spanning between the two panel lines that will help to hold the wall
together when the concrete is poured.
The 2 ft panels are being installed here. They are set on top of the lower
panels and sandwich the form ties. Metal "shoes" are then slipped over the
ties and hammered tight to help lock in the panels. Top spreader clips are
still needed to keep the tops of the panels from flopping out. It's tricky
because the two stacked panels aren't really stable until you get the ties and
spreader clips at the top attached to both inner and outer from panels. Lots
of precarious balancing until then.
Setting up the big shed building now. Note the 2x8 blocks set across the
lower wall panels to help support the horizontal rebar until it was tied off.
For the top band of rebar some clamps did a good job as temporary ledges
to support the rebar until it was tied off.
Working to set up the form panels on the shed building. Each panel was
coated in diesel fuel as a release agent before installation. It made handling
the panels a bit more tricky with them being slicked up. The back panel can
be seen leaning against the rebar until the panel on the saw horses is fully
coated and installed.
Working methodically around the perimeter of the foundation. The walls are
somewhat self supporting at this point but they are still wobbly. Eventually
they will be double checked for alignment and braced off.
Shot of the form cavity with the rebar running right down the middle.
This is where things are at now. The end walls were left un-finished as I cut
some wood for the door buck outs.
Some 2x8's ripped down to an exact 6" wide and then cut to length for the
door buckouts. The holes are drilled in the bottom pieces to let air escape
and (hopefully) prevent air pockets and voids under the buckouts.
.
51rider
Well-known member
What's a buckout?
RbrtAWhyt
Well-known member
Are you required by local code to build the shed to that extreme?
What's a buckout?
No clue, precisely, it's just what I'm calling the lumber I'm using to create a hole in the concrete wall for the door ways.
Maybe I invented a new word. Just checked Merriam-Webster.com . . . I DID just invent a new word. Cool.
I'm actually not required to build to code at all. I talked to my city building department (and actually have in print) that shed and out buildings that are under 200 sq ft do not require a building permit. As such, they aren't required to comply with building code nor are they required to abide by property set back or height limits.RbrtAWhyt said:
And this is for each independent structure.
There are no limits to the number of out buildings one can have on their property. Only restriction I can tell is that there is a 55% lot coverage limit for impervious surface area (building roofs, driveways, patios, walkways, sheds, etc.).
As for the whys of it. . . it might be a bit over kill (maybe) but it's not that much extra work and I want the shed buildings to have the same integrity as our house so it'll last just as long.
Still, for the most part I am following code in terms of hold downs, having some minimum rebar, that the rebar have the appropriate coverage, nail spacing on the panels (when I get there), and so forth.
Finally re-strung the string lines last night to check wall placement. Not bad, the form panels were within 1/4 - 3/8" of being dead-on where the string lines were. Set some 2x4 stakes and then nailed on some bracing to push / pull the wall into alignment. I can't speak for how level it is but eye-balling down the line it looks like the wall is within about 1/8" +/- of being straight down it's 18 ft length. Only problem is that while the top of the wall perfectly aligns with the strings, it's out of plumb by about 1/4" in it's 3 ft height. I don't think it'll be too noticeable, though.
Gotta hurry up and brace the rest of the walls. Concrete truck and pump truck show up in 66 hours. I think I'm going to have to take at least Friday off of work and probably tomorrow, too, to get everything ready in time.
Using a router to cut some notches into the top chamfer strip for the
formwork. The notches provide room tabs on the form panel clips at the top
to sit flush.
Detail of one of the clips showing the tab and hole sin the chamfer strip.
Chamfer strip and corner detail of the formwork.
The wall is decently straight.
51rider
Well-known member
By my reckoning, you should have concrete by now........
How's it going??
How's it going??
Going good. 
Yes. Concrete is in and I'm ready to start stripping the formwork after work tonight. Couldn't resist peeling a few panels off this morning to check things out. See bottom of the post for end result. Otherwise, the pictures are basically in "order of operations" along with descriptions:
I ended up having to take a day and a half off of work at the end of last week to get the formwork finalized. This included setting up the last of the form panels, cutting and installing the chamfer strips, the door knock-outs, and bracing and aligning the walls, then getting the anchor bolts prepped.
The concrete guys who showed up this Saturday were impressed with the quality build of the form work. They said it was a lot better than most they've seen and that there was no creaking, groaning, movement, or (most importantly) any blow-outs during concrete placement, especially since the concrete was vibrated to remove air pockets (which really increases hydraulic pressure on the formwork and is risky).
Not bad for a first attempt. I was aware of these concerns so I tried to be conscientious while building everything.
Getting the door way knock-outs set in place (along with the top chamfer
strips) prior to attaching the second form panel.
Got the wall forms all braced up and aligned with the strings.
This is what the formwork looked like when it was all finished, waiting for the
concrete trucks to show up.
The threaded ends of the anchor bolts are wrapped in tape to keep the threads
from getting gunked up with wet concrete. The tape extends down to where
the bolts need to be embeded to provide sufficent thread exposure for when
the wall's wood mudplate, washer, and nut go on.
One of the many many sketches I've made on this project for planning
purposes. These are a link between the "working drawings" and the built
structure. In this case I'm laying out where the anchor bolts need to be placed
so they won't be accidentally set where a wall stud comes down on the mud
plate.
The morning of the pour I spent a few minutes and marked off on the wall
forms where the anchor bolts needed to be set (red arrows) based on the
sketch.
This time I had two trucks show up. The first one in this picture is the pump
truck, the second is the concrete delivery truck.
The trucks are backed up to one another so the concrete truck can dump the
wet concrete into the pump hopper on the back of the pump truck.
This was the crew for the pump truck. Usually it's just one guy to control
the pump and the home owner has to manage the hose. They cost a bit
more but I was glad to have the two-person crew. The guy in the white
shirt is controling the truck and pump via the little remote control box he is
holding (hard to see). This way he can be right where the concrete is
coming out into the forms to see what's going on.
The concrete being gooped into the forms. It's a little tough as the hose is
heavy and awkward and I only have a 4" opening at the top of the form due
to the chamfer strip.
As soon as the guys were done pumping my friend and I screeded off the
top of the wall forms and set the anchor bolts.
.
Yes. Concrete is in and I'm ready to start stripping the formwork after work tonight. Couldn't resist peeling a few panels off this morning to check things out. See bottom of the post for end result. Otherwise, the pictures are basically in "order of operations" along with descriptions:
I ended up having to take a day and a half off of work at the end of last week to get the formwork finalized. This included setting up the last of the form panels, cutting and installing the chamfer strips, the door knock-outs, and bracing and aligning the walls, then getting the anchor bolts prepped.
The concrete guys who showed up this Saturday were impressed with the quality build of the form work. They said it was a lot better than most they've seen and that there was no creaking, groaning, movement, or (most importantly) any blow-outs during concrete placement, especially since the concrete was vibrated to remove air pockets (which really increases hydraulic pressure on the formwork and is risky).
Not bad for a first attempt. I was aware of these concerns so I tried to be conscientious while building everything.
Getting the door way knock-outs set in place (along with the top chamfer
strips) prior to attaching the second form panel.
Got the wall forms all braced up and aligned with the strings.
This is what the formwork looked like when it was all finished, waiting for the
concrete trucks to show up.
The threaded ends of the anchor bolts are wrapped in tape to keep the threads
from getting gunked up with wet concrete. The tape extends down to where
the bolts need to be embeded to provide sufficent thread exposure for when
the wall's wood mudplate, washer, and nut go on.
One of the many many sketches I've made on this project for planning
purposes. These are a link between the "working drawings" and the built
structure. In this case I'm laying out where the anchor bolts need to be placed
so they won't be accidentally set where a wall stud comes down on the mud
plate.
The morning of the pour I spent a few minutes and marked off on the wall
forms where the anchor bolts needed to be set (red arrows) based on the
sketch.
This time I had two trucks show up. The first one in this picture is the pump
truck, the second is the concrete delivery truck.
The trucks are backed up to one another so the concrete truck can dump the
wet concrete into the pump hopper on the back of the pump truck.
This was the crew for the pump truck. Usually it's just one guy to control
the pump and the home owner has to manage the hose. They cost a bit
more but I was glad to have the two-person crew. The guy in the white
shirt is controling the truck and pump via the little remote control box he is
holding (hard to see). This way he can be right where the concrete is
coming out into the forms to see what's going on.
The concrete being gooped into the forms. It's a little tough as the hose is
heavy and awkward and I only have a 4" opening at the top of the form due
to the chamfer strip.
As soon as the guys were done pumping my friend and I screeded off the
top of the wall forms and set the anchor bolts.
.
This morning before heading into work I stripped three of the form panels just to see what the wall looked like. I have to say I'm very pleased with the results. So far everything is looking straight and true. The vibration produced a very nicely consolidated wall with very few air bubbles. And the corners came out nice and crisp (which admittedly is a bit of a weak spot for concrete, this is why most corners are chamfered with a 45 deg bevel).
The only problem spot was some air bubbles that formed under the top chamfer strip. This wasn't a big surprise and I was expecting it. After I get all the forms stripped, cleaned and returned to the rental place I'll go back and sack finish the top face of the bevel.
Late in the day on the day of the pour I went around the tops of the forms and popped off the cleats one at a time to scrape down any ridges left by the cleat in the previously wet concrete. Then I'd put the cleat back in place "just in case" before moving on to the next one. Very glad I did this. When the forms were pulled off this morning the tops of the wall were nice and clean and smooth. I don't think I'll need to do any prep work before the walls are set in place.
Stripping the first three wall panels this morning. Trying to be careful about
it as the concrete is still delicate.
This is a pic of the door opening. Everything turned out nice and crisp. I
haven't put a spirit level up to it yet but I think it's still plumb. I was
worries that the hydraulic pressure would have kicked out the bottom of the
knock-out slightly.
Tops of the concrete wall are nice and smooth for the most part.
This is the back-side of the yard tool building. The wall finish is nice and
smooth and the wall looks straight. Good. But there are some pronounced
air bubbles that needed to be filled and sacked.
I also took some care to keep things neat and tidy around the Ufer ground
stub and the conduit. The anchor bolts were wet set. As they were pushed
into the concrete I twisted the J-bolts 1/4 turn to hook them under the top
horizontal rebar. Then I wiggled the bolts to "vibrate" the concrete and get
it to flow back around the bolt and close up the air pocket created by
pushing the bolt into the concrete.
The only problem spot was some air bubbles that formed under the top chamfer strip. This wasn't a big surprise and I was expecting it. After I get all the forms stripped, cleaned and returned to the rental place I'll go back and sack finish the top face of the bevel.
Late in the day on the day of the pour I went around the tops of the forms and popped off the cleats one at a time to scrape down any ridges left by the cleat in the previously wet concrete. Then I'd put the cleat back in place "just in case" before moving on to the next one. Very glad I did this. When the forms were pulled off this morning the tops of the wall were nice and clean and smooth. I don't think I'll need to do any prep work before the walls are set in place.
Stripping the first three wall panels this morning. Trying to be careful about
it as the concrete is still delicate.
This is a pic of the door opening. Everything turned out nice and crisp. I
haven't put a spirit level up to it yet but I think it's still plumb. I was
worries that the hydraulic pressure would have kicked out the bottom of the
knock-out slightly.
Tops of the concrete wall are nice and smooth for the most part.
This is the back-side of the yard tool building. The wall finish is nice and
smooth and the wall looks straight. Good. But there are some pronounced
air bubbles that needed to be filled and sacked.
I also took some care to keep things neat and tidy around the Ufer ground
stub and the conduit. The anchor bolts were wet set. As they were pushed
into the concrete I twisted the J-bolts 1/4 turn to hook them under the top
horizontal rebar. Then I wiggled the bolts to "vibrate" the concrete and get
it to flow back around the bolt and close up the air pocket created by
pushing the bolt into the concrete.
One annoying thing I notice in working with concrete is it's incredible ability to dry out one's hands. And I normally hate wearing glove.
Last night I got about 3/4 of the form panels stripped off. It's a semi-slow process as there are many pieces to remove. The form system is simple. Just some clips or cleats at the top of the wall to pop off (that kept the panels from spreading out. Those get knocked out with a hammer or something. Then some wedges that interface with the form ties. Again, pretty simple, just hammer them out the reverse of how they went in. Then twist off the ends of the snap tie. It's just that there are about 200 snap tie ends and wedges to pound out and the wedges can be stubborn as many are encrusted jammed with concrete.
And then finally there is stripping off the form panels. Lots of work with a flat prybar and 3 lb. mallet, being careful not to mark up or chip the still green concrete.
I figure by tonight I'll have the rest of the rental forms stripped off. That will leave me the hours after work on Thursday to get them scraped clean and restacked in the trailer so I can return them Friday morning. Once they are returned I can "relax" a bit and not have to worry about time pressures. This concrete phase has been and probably will be the most stressful because everything is a relatively expensive chunk of the project, I'm dealing with a time sensitive material, it's heavy and can be difficult to work with, very little room for screw ups, and screw ups can be expensive and time consuming to fix. I still need to pour the slab on grade floors of the shed buildings but those should be much easier to do than the patio or even pouring the walls.
The small shed building wall panels are completely stripped and
most of the large shed building panels are, too.
The bottom of the door way can be a bit rough as that will be a couple
inches under the bottom of the floor slab and won't be visible.
Working on getting the big shed stripped.
The small shed building walls stripped and mostly ready for back filling.
Last night I got about 3/4 of the form panels stripped off. It's a semi-slow process as there are many pieces to remove. The form system is simple. Just some clips or cleats at the top of the wall to pop off (that kept the panels from spreading out. Those get knocked out with a hammer or something. Then some wedges that interface with the form ties. Again, pretty simple, just hammer them out the reverse of how they went in. Then twist off the ends of the snap tie. It's just that there are about 200 snap tie ends and wedges to pound out and the wedges can be stubborn as many are encrusted jammed with concrete.
And then finally there is stripping off the form panels. Lots of work with a flat prybar and 3 lb. mallet, being careful not to mark up or chip the still green concrete.
I figure by tonight I'll have the rest of the rental forms stripped off. That will leave me the hours after work on Thursday to get them scraped clean and restacked in the trailer so I can return them Friday morning. Once they are returned I can "relax" a bit and not have to worry about time pressures. This concrete phase has been and probably will be the most stressful because everything is a relatively expensive chunk of the project, I'm dealing with a time sensitive material, it's heavy and can be difficult to work with, very little room for screw ups, and screw ups can be expensive and time consuming to fix. I still need to pour the slab on grade floors of the shed buildings but those should be much easier to do than the patio or even pouring the walls.
The small shed building wall panels are completely stripped and
most of the large shed building panels are, too.
The bottom of the door way can be a bit rough as that will be a couple
inches under the bottom of the floor slab and won't be visible.
Working on getting the big shed stripped.
The small shed building walls stripped and mostly ready for back filling.
hmbemis
Well-known member
Fantastic build thread... my SO the psychologist was leaning over my shoulder while I was reading this during breakfast today and said you're a class "ISTJ" personality... I assume that's a compliment because that's what she calls me too
Excuse me if I'm jumping the gun on planned a future post, or I've overlooked something from earlier--but have you gone into your plans for the electrical? I see the Ufer ground info, but are you planning to install a load panel out there, or just a single circuit? I'm assuming panel because of the effort put into the grounding?
Excuse me if I'm jumping the gun on planned a future post, or I've overlooked something from earlier--but have you gone into your plans for the electrical? I see the Ufer ground info, but are you planning to install a load panel out there, or just a single circuit? I'm assuming panel because of the effort put into the grounding?
I haven't decided 100% yet on the electrical.
Prudence says to put in more electrical than needed "now" for any future "just in case" uses.
However, I've always looked at using the new shed WITH the main garage attached to the house (think same purpose but split into two building). The house garage has more space than the shed and would thus make a better work space. But currently I'm tripping all over my tools, equipment and materials. Hence the shed. I'll store things in the shed long-term but bring in what I need for each project that I'll work on in the garage.
Under this scenario I'm not expecting to do much work, if any, in the shed and it'll be used mostly just for storage. As such I just need a couple lights. However, I do plan to wire in a few outlets in each shed building.
IIRC, I think I was reading in the electrical forum that out buildings of a single circuit and/or under 20 amps could be run off of a circuit from the house but anything bigger than that would need it's own sub panel. To this end I put in the Ufer grounds. If it turns out I can't or don't need to use them then whoopee, the vertical stubs were made with scrap rebar and took me ~40 minutes to bend and wire up. No big loss. But they are there if I need them.
I plan to run conduit between the two shed buildings so I don't need to dig anything up for that run in the future, but there is an existing underground rated 12/2 w/ ground cable running from the house out to where the old shed used to be (that was torn down). The cable had been there for at least 2 decades and was in very good condition when I carefully dug it up and coiled it out of the way. I plan on using this existing cable to get things up and running. When we get to a remodel of our house in the years ahead I'll "fix" the wiring at that time between the house and the closest shed building. The set up is diagramed like this;
[HOUSE GARAGE]-----Exist.-12/2-cable-----[New Yard Tool Building]----new-conduit-----[New Shed Building]
In an ideal world I'd re-do the line from the garage now but the system was working perfectly fine in the old shed for decades so I don't want to monkey with that.
Prudence says to put in more electrical than needed "now" for any future "just in case" uses.
However, I've always looked at using the new shed WITH the main garage attached to the house (think same purpose but split into two building). The house garage has more space than the shed and would thus make a better work space. But currently I'm tripping all over my tools, equipment and materials. Hence the shed. I'll store things in the shed long-term but bring in what I need for each project that I'll work on in the garage.
Under this scenario I'm not expecting to do much work, if any, in the shed and it'll be used mostly just for storage. As such I just need a couple lights. However, I do plan to wire in a few outlets in each shed building.
IIRC, I think I was reading in the electrical forum that out buildings of a single circuit and/or under 20 amps could be run off of a circuit from the house but anything bigger than that would need it's own sub panel. To this end I put in the Ufer grounds. If it turns out I can't or don't need to use them then whoopee, the vertical stubs were made with scrap rebar and took me ~40 minutes to bend and wire up. No big loss. But they are there if I need them.
I plan to run conduit between the two shed buildings so I don't need to dig anything up for that run in the future, but there is an existing underground rated 12/2 w/ ground cable running from the house out to where the old shed used to be (that was torn down). The cable had been there for at least 2 decades and was in very good condition when I carefully dug it up and coiled it out of the way. I plan on using this existing cable to get things up and running. When we get to a remodel of our house in the years ahead I'll "fix" the wiring at that time between the house and the closest shed building. The set up is diagramed like this;
[HOUSE GARAGE]-----Exist.-12/2-cable-----[New Yard Tool Building]----new-conduit-----[New Shed Building]
In an ideal world I'd re-do the line from the garage now but the system was working perfectly fine in the old shed for decades so I don't want to monkey with that.
51rider
Well-known member
Any updates?
Yes. This is a fascinating one. . . . it's about shoveling dirt.
The backfilling work is tedious and slow. Basically shoveling dirt from the piles into a wheel barrow then dumping said wheel barrow, spreading out the soil and stomping on it to compact it. Ideally I'd employ a plate compactor but I think simply stepping on thin lifts (or layers of dirt) will be fine. The soil is compacting very well and firm and when I'm done with it stepping on it will not leave an depression.
After doing some calcs I figure with each step I'm exerting about 6 psi of ground pressure. Where as with 50 psf for the concrete slab and 100 psf for any storage "stuff" there's barely over 1 psi of ground pressure. And the 100 psf is about 2 1/2 times what a normal wood house floor is designed to support in terms of load.
After filling up the interior of the small shed building and before filing in the trench in front of the door to the big shed building for an access ramp, it seemed like a good idea to install some electrical conduit. That way I wouldn't need to re-dig anything to lay down some electrical cable and I wouldn't need to mess with any electrical work at this time. Originally I planned to just do some direct burial cable but the PVC conduit was dirt cheap. 40 ft of conduit plus several ell fittings and a pull box ran less than $20. And after a morning's worth of digging the trench and cutting, fitting, and gluing the PVC together it was done.
There is still a lot of back filling to do and final grading on the interior of the foundation wall to get everything leveled for the concrete slab. I took off several days of shed work for a multi-day Jeep expedition and then for the fourth of July weekend. But I'm back on the project now. Hopefully I can get this wrapped up before long and get the floor poured. Then the framing.
Starting to back-fill the foundation. Good dirt goes on the inside and bad
dirt on the outside of the concrete wall. My son is "helping" me with his
construction toys. He plays in the dirt while I do the shoveling.
The existing electrical will run from the house out to
the small shed building first, there it will have an
electrical panel or breaker of some kind that will
supply the electrical for both shed buildings. Here
you can see the T-union pull box that connects to
the line from the house and the larger shed building.
.
Laying the conduit through a the trench. On the left is a wood block
I set between the corner of the concrete and the conduit. The PVC
was able to bend well enough here in a gentle arc that I didn't need
an elbow fitting. I figured this was best since it's one less restriction
while fishing the wire. The wood block will get buried and eventually
rot away but by that time the surrounding dirt will keep the conduit
away from the corner of the foundation to keep it from rubbing on
the concrete.
The trench with the conduit in it in front of the large shed building is now
back filled in this picture. This gives smooth access to the wheel barrow to
start dumping soil into the interior of the foundation wall.
After a few nights of working an hour or two in the evenings I almost have
half the big shed foundation filled up. Some of the left over lumpy concrete
in the middle will probably need to be bused up. Also, I'm starting to get
worried I won't have enough "good dirt" to go around. There is still a left
over pile of dirt from the patio excavation last year I can tap into if need be.
The backfilling work is tedious and slow. Basically shoveling dirt from the piles into a wheel barrow then dumping said wheel barrow, spreading out the soil and stomping on it to compact it. Ideally I'd employ a plate compactor but I think simply stepping on thin lifts (or layers of dirt) will be fine. The soil is compacting very well and firm and when I'm done with it stepping on it will not leave an depression.
After doing some calcs I figure with each step I'm exerting about 6 psi of ground pressure. Where as with 50 psf for the concrete slab and 100 psf for any storage "stuff" there's barely over 1 psi of ground pressure. And the 100 psf is about 2 1/2 times what a normal wood house floor is designed to support in terms of load.
After filling up the interior of the small shed building and before filing in the trench in front of the door to the big shed building for an access ramp, it seemed like a good idea to install some electrical conduit. That way I wouldn't need to re-dig anything to lay down some electrical cable and I wouldn't need to mess with any electrical work at this time. Originally I planned to just do some direct burial cable but the PVC conduit was dirt cheap. 40 ft of conduit plus several ell fittings and a pull box ran less than $20. And after a morning's worth of digging the trench and cutting, fitting, and gluing the PVC together it was done.
There is still a lot of back filling to do and final grading on the interior of the foundation wall to get everything leveled for the concrete slab. I took off several days of shed work for a multi-day Jeep expedition and then for the fourth of July weekend. But I'm back on the project now. Hopefully I can get this wrapped up before long and get the floor poured. Then the framing.
Starting to back-fill the foundation. Good dirt goes on the inside and bad
dirt on the outside of the concrete wall. My son is "helping" me with his
construction toys. He plays in the dirt while I do the shoveling.
The existing electrical will run from the house out to
the small shed building first, there it will have an
electrical panel or breaker of some kind that will
supply the electrical for both shed buildings. Here
you can see the T-union pull box that connects to
the line from the house and the larger shed building.
Laying the conduit through a the trench. On the left is a wood block
I set between the corner of the concrete and the conduit. The PVC
was able to bend well enough here in a gentle arc that I didn't need
an elbow fitting. I figured this was best since it's one less restriction
while fishing the wire. The wood block will get buried and eventually
rot away but by that time the surrounding dirt will keep the conduit
away from the corner of the foundation to keep it from rubbing on
the concrete.
The trench with the conduit in it in front of the large shed building is now
back filled in this picture. This gives smooth access to the wheel barrow to
start dumping soil into the interior of the foundation wall.
After a few nights of working an hour or two in the evenings I almost have
half the big shed foundation filled up. Some of the left over lumpy concrete
in the middle will probably need to be bused up. Also, I'm starting to get
worried I won't have enough "good dirt" to go around. There is still a left
over pile of dirt from the patio excavation last year I can tap into if need be.
51rider
Well-known member
Progress is progress whether it is shovelling dirt or laying conduit.
Why did you not use armoured cable rather than conduit? Can you not get it/use it in domestic situations in the US?
Would be a much quicker way to get power into the buildings.
I'm glad you have an 'assistant' all that work without one would be a pain
Why did you not use armoured cable rather than conduit? Can you not get it/use it in domestic situations in the US?
Would be a much quicker way to get power into the buildings.
I'm glad you have an 'assistant' all that work without one would be a pain
Stuart in MN
Well-known member
The existing electrical will run from the house out to
the small shed building first, there it will have an
electrical panel or breaker of some kind that will
supply the electrical for both shed buildings. Here
you can see the T-union pull box that connects to
the line from the house and the larger shed building.
FYI, that tee fitting isn't supposed to be buried.
Stuart in MN said:
This is part of the problem with relying on the people who work at Lowes or Home Depot. The fellow at Lowes "who had worked for over 20 years as an electrician" said it would be fine for direct burial. I should have suspected something when he had no clue what an Ufer / CEE was a few weeks before.
It's not a major concern (at least I wouldn't think it would be but maybe I'm wrong?) since there isn't going to be any spliced connection in that T fitting or anywhere else in the conduit. I plan to pull a continuous wire from the house up to the inside of the first shed. Then a second continuous wire from the first shed to the second shed. Zero splices.
The only thing the T-Fitting is for is acting as a pull box allowing me to bring two feeds to a single conduit going up into the first shed building. . . . since I only put in a single conduit through the foundation wall. It's not an issue on the second shed building but the first one it would have been nice to have two separate conduit feeds, one from the house and one to the second shed.
I'll also be using direct burial cable through the conduit.
Was there another T or Y fitting that would have been more appropriate?
Rider51 said:
Yes, but it is sloooooooowwwww progress. And I want to make sure this whole project is sided, roofed, and painted before the return of crappy weather in the Fall.
Almost nothing was done this weekend. Saturday I went on a garden tour with my aunt and son and didn't get home until after dark. And sunday I was busy rummaging through the salvage material warehouses for doors and windows. . . . with mixed results. More later. I did get another 6-8 wheelbarrow loads filled in.
As for why the conduit vs. armored cable? I just didn't want to mess with any of the electrical at this point. The conduit lets me backfill with dirt while still leaving a way to fish the cable through at a later date. Plus, eventually I'd like to put in a concrete slab between the two shed buildings and having the conduit run under the slab would be nice "just in case" something needs to be done with the electrical in the future. That way I don't have to bust up the slab. . . just fish the electrical cable through again. At first I figured I'd just run the conduit under where the slab would be. Then I figured, what the heck and ran it the full way between the two buildings.
Cost was minimal: 40 ft of conduit, three 90 deg ells, one 45 deg ell, and the T-fitting was $15, I already had the PVC primer and glue on hand.
Finished Buying Doors / Starting on Windows
I now have all my doors for this project. The pair of french doors I picked up last winter when I thought I'd be starting the project last year. They are a pair of uncut VG fir solid core french doors. Got both for $100. This sunday I picked up a full-class 36" x 84" solid oak commercial door for the big shed. Talked them down to $100 from $125. I'll be making my own door jambs for them, though. Still. Good quality doors for reasonable prices.
The window I picked up was a 30" x 75" tall window. It should be pretty cool. A bit beat up but not too bad at $25. It will require some cleaning, however. Still need to find 2-4 other windows. Pretty much exhausted the salvage yards. Time to start looking on craigslist.
Almost ready to pour the concrete (which is schedules for this Saturday). The back filling is finished and the fill level is high enough to support the slab. I needed to do some chipping away at left over concrete lumps that were sticking up too high. Used the pick ax. Not fun but it didn't take too long.
Once I got the fill level close I took out the laser again and did spot measurements around the top of the foundation wall to double check the height. Turns out the top of the wall was a lot more uneven than I figured. It won't be a problem but it still irks me. Everything is a minimum 3/16" higher than I figured but it ranges from 3/16 - 9/16" higher around the perimeter. Anyways, the added height was noted and written down on some tape put on the wall at each measurement point.
Later I measured down from each tape strip down the face of the wall the original heigh to the floor slab plus the extra height. A mark was made here and then 4" below this for the bottom of the slab elevation. Then final filing and leveling was done to just below the 4" mark.
Last night I glued on some expansion strip material around the perimeter at the height of the top-of-slab marks on the walls. This will help with any expansion / contraction of the slab and wall plus give me a more noticeable horizontal line for doing the concrete pour.
Next up, vapor barrier, rebar, and forming off the doorways with a 2x4, then waiting until Saturday morning.
Marking height measurements on tap after verifying
things with the laser again.
Using a pick ax to chip down the lumps of concrete
that were sticking up too high. Also note the blue
tape about every 4 ft along the top of the wall.
Finally! Interior of both shed buildings is brought up to the spec'd level.
Starting to glue up the expansion strips to the foundation.
The chunks of concrete are there to hold the strips to the
wall until the glue dries. The empty bag of dog foot was
used for kneeling on.
All the expansion strips have been glued up.
Once I got the fill level close I took out the laser again and did spot measurements around the top of the foundation wall to double check the height. Turns out the top of the wall was a lot more uneven than I figured. It won't be a problem but it still irks me. Everything is a minimum 3/16" higher than I figured but it ranges from 3/16 - 9/16" higher around the perimeter. Anyways, the added height was noted and written down on some tape put on the wall at each measurement point.
Later I measured down from each tape strip down the face of the wall the original heigh to the floor slab plus the extra height. A mark was made here and then 4" below this for the bottom of the slab elevation. Then final filing and leveling was done to just below the 4" mark.
Last night I glued on some expansion strip material around the perimeter at the height of the top-of-slab marks on the walls. This will help with any expansion / contraction of the slab and wall plus give me a more noticeable horizontal line for doing the concrete pour.
Next up, vapor barrier, rebar, and forming off the doorways with a 2x4, then waiting until Saturday morning.
Marking height measurements on tap after verifying
things with the laser again.
Using a pick ax to chip down the lumps of concrete
that were sticking up too high. Also note the blue
tape about every 4 ft along the top of the wall.
Finally! Interior of both shed buildings is brought up to the spec'd level.
Starting to glue up the expansion strips to the foundation.
The chunks of concrete are there to hold the strips to the
wall until the glue dries. The empty bag of dog foot was
used for kneeling on.
All the expansion strips have been glued up.
Almost ready to pour the concrete (which is schedules for this Saturday). The back filling is finished and the fill level is high enough to support the slab. I needed to do some chipping away at left over concrete lumps that were sticking up too high. Used the pick ax. Not fun but it didn't take too long.
Once I got the fill level close I took out the laser again and did spot measurements around the top of the foundation wall to double check the height. Turns out the top of the wall was a lot more uneven than I figured. It won't be a problem but it still irks me. Everything is a minimum 3/16" higher than I figured but it ranges from 3/16 - 9/16" higher around the perimeter. Anyways, the added height was noted and written down on some tape put on the wall at each measurement point.
Later I measured down from each tape strip down the face of the wall the original heigh to the floor slab plus the extra height. A mark was made here and then 4" below this for the bottom of the slab elevation. Then final filing and leveling was done to just below the 4" mark.
Last night I glued on some expansion strip material around the perimeter at the height of the top-of-slab marks on the walls. This will help with any expansion / contraction of the slab and wall plus give me a more noticeable horizontal line for doing the concrete pour.
Next up, vapor barrier, rebar, and forming off the doorways with a 2x4, then waiting until Saturday morning.
Marking height measurements on tap after verifying
things with the laser again.
Using a pick ax to chip down the lumps of concrete
that were sticking up too high. Also note the blue
tape about every 4 ft along the top of the wall.
Finally! Interior of both shed buildings is brought up to the spec'd level.
Starting to glue up the expansion strips to the foundation.
The chunks of concrete are there to hold the strips to the
wall until the glue dries. The empty bag of dog foot was
used for kneeling on.
All the expansion strips have been glued up.
Once I got the fill level close I took out the laser again and did spot measurements around the top of the foundation wall to double check the height. Turns out the top of the wall was a lot more uneven than I figured. It won't be a problem but it still irks me. Everything is a minimum 3/16" higher than I figured but it ranges from 3/16 - 9/16" higher around the perimeter. Anyways, the added height was noted and written down on some tape put on the wall at each measurement point.
Later I measured down from each tape strip down the face of the wall the original heigh to the floor slab plus the extra height. A mark was made here and then 4" below this for the bottom of the slab elevation. Then final filing and leveling was done to just below the 4" mark.
Last night I glued on some expansion strip material around the perimeter at the height of the top-of-slab marks on the walls. This will help with any expansion / contraction of the slab and wall plus give me a more noticeable horizontal line for doing the concrete pour.
Next up, vapor barrier, rebar, and forming off the doorways with a 2x4, then waiting until Saturday morning.
Marking height measurements on tap after verifying
things with the laser again.
Using a pick ax to chip down the lumps of concrete
that were sticking up too high. Also note the blue
tape about every 4 ft along the top of the wall.
Finally! Interior of both shed buildings is brought up to the spec'd level.
Starting to glue up the expansion strips to the foundation.
The chunks of concrete are there to hold the strips to the
wall until the glue dries. The empty bag of dog foot was
used for kneeling on.
All the expansion strips have been glued up.
JTSmithson
Well-known member
my old man says this about everything he builds, it won't fly, but it'll never fall apart. overbuilt and "bulletproof".
cdrewferd
Well-known member
Great progress. I can't wait to see how the sheds turn out. You're putting enough work into them it should be a garage your building, not two little sheds.
Not yes. I haven't wanted to monkey with the wiring yet. Hence the reasons for putting the conduit it. It let me focus on getting things back filled and ready for the slab pour.
JTSmithson said:
Maybe. Might be a bit overkill but I'm just surprised how little rebar I see in the foundations on GJ here. I didn't have anything engineered but I looked through some of the boiler plate minimum recommendations on our office General Notes page (for houses), plus some research in various construction and framing books. The rebar I have in the shed is a little light for a house-size structure. But based on that and my field observations over the last decade it seemed about right.
Plus I was being careful to make good connections and get it all set up neat and tidy with proper coverage of the rebar.
Thanks. I can't wait to see how it turns out, either.cdrewferd said:
I have three projects going on at the same time right now. The shed, trying to finish up the home office remodel, and I just started working on a cargo deck / camp table for my Jeep.
You thinking what I'm thinking...if he doesn't have a pull wire already in there, he is going to have fun pulling anything through the Y
Other than that, everything looks great.
993James993
Well-known member
- Joined
- Feb 24, 2008
- Messages
- 524
Looking great! Can't wait to see the next photos.
vtx531
Well-known member
Hey, I recognize you from JeepForum. Anyways, looks like lots of work on the sheds. Should turn out good.
Um. . . yes, I agree.
I "think" it should be ok.
The conduit is getting back filled except to the t-connection. I'll leave that exposed in an open hole until I pull the wire. At this point the trench where the t-connection is located is on the side of the project and out of the way, so no pressing need to fill it in.
I plan to fish the wire from the big shed to the t-connection and pull it out there. Then from the existing feed to the t-connection and pull that out there. I thought I'd pull out about 8-9 ft of wire from each run (however much I need to then finally snake up through the small shed building) out of the t-connection. Then I'll fish a wire from the small shed down to the t-connection and hook on both of the 8-9 ft wire lengths and carefully snake that back through and follow the fish tape up and out of the small shed.
I'll probably have to have a helper for this. One of us to pull the wire up and out of the small shed. The other to help feed the paired electrical cables back into the t-connection.
As I said, it would have been smarter to run two conduit lines up through the foundation of the small shed and then there wouldn't be this issue with the t-connection. There'd be one conduit to-and-from the house and one to the second shed.
But "old too soon, smart too late" was a phrase my Dad used to say and I'm finding the wisdom of that phrase is more and more accurate the older I get.
I was under the impression that the T junction was back filled as well. Sounds like you've thought it through. In case you're not aware, the big box stores sell a "lubricant" in the electrical section to use when pulling wire. May or may not be of interest to you or even needed. Makes pulling long lengths of wire a bit easier, and less likely to actually snag the wire and tear it's covering. Best of luck.
#3 rebar on a 24" o.c. grid for the floor slabs. Plus a vapor barrier under that.
At the door openings some #3 bar was set at a 45 deg
angle across where the inside corners of the slab will
be. Concrete tends to crack at a 45 deg angle from
the point of an inside corner. Setting the rebar at an
angle will put it exactly perpendicular to the potential
crack line and improve the crack resistance.
This saturday was the last of the three concrete pours. Here is the breakdown of the concrete I've had delivered this summer:
2.0 cy = Shed footings
6.0 cy = Shed wall
3.0 cy = Shed floor slabs
11.0 cy Shed total
+4.5 cy = Patio pour
15.5 cy total
At 4,000 lb. per cy that's 62,000 lb. of concrete delivered this summer with 44,000 lb. going into the shed.
Saturday's pour went well enough. With the ground drier and firmer than earlier this spring the truck was able to access both shed buildings this time. This meant it could drop the concrete straight out of the chute so there was no need for any wheel barrowing or bucket brigades. Just putting the concrete around with the steel garden rake and maybe a shovel.
As with the other pours I had friends help me with this one. We would pour about 1-2 ft all the way across the slab area and then lift the rebar grid up into the middle of the concrete. A little shake to re-settle the concrete under the rebar and the wet concrete would keep the steel supported. No need for dobie blocks, rocks, rebar chairs, or other supports.
After the rebar was lifted into place the wet concrete was screeded until we reached the end of the 1-2 ft pour. Then the process would start again with another 1-2 ft of concrete placed. In this manner we worked our way from one end of the buildings to the other.
Pouring inside a taller foundation wall was challenging because of the lack of boards or formwork to run the screed on. Fortunately I had glued on the expansion strips to the wall and that at least gave us a 1/2" ledge which was easier to find that a chalk line would have been. But otherwise, most of the slab screeding was done by eye-balling it.
Just after the screeding was done the slabs were bull floated which smoothed and evened them out a lot. After that I cut in some beveled slopes at the door openings so rainwater dripping down the doors won't flow into the building interiors. Again, just eye-balling it but they turned out well.
The night before I tape plastic sheeting over the foundation wall to keep any wet concrete from mucking up the nice smooth foundation wall surface. While it did this very well the side benefit was being able to flip the plastic over the slabs late in the evening to help keep the moisture in the concrete until it cures enough. Premature letting the concrete dry out can increase chances of surface cracking and lead to weaker slabs. I figure over the next week I'll lift up the plastic and hose down the slabs to keep them nice and wet.
However, there were a few problems with the pour:
I waited too long to cut in the control joints. If I had dont it immediately after bull floating any large aggregate would have easily be pushed into the wet concrete. Instead as the groover was pushed a long the concrete was a little to firm so the aggregate wouldn't move out of the way and instead pushed the groover around. While the control joints are more or less straight there's a wiggle along their length.
I also waited too long to hit the slabs with the steel trowel. It's not an exact science and you need to wait until the surface water is re-absorbed after bull floating. There was a 15-20 minute window where I was cleaning the equipment and putting things away that the concrete started setting up too much. So now about 20% of the concrete has a rougher texture from the bull float where the steel trowel couldn't smooth it out.
And finally, there is some variation in the floor level. It's only about 1/4 - 3/8".
The concrete truck getting ready to start pouring into the small shed building first.
Both slabs have been poured but only the small was has been bull floated yet.
This is what the rough screeding job looked like before it was floated.
And this is after bull floating. Some float marks are still
visible and the control joint has been cut in.
A detail showing the beveled area in the door openings for drainage.
The plastic sheeting was flipped over the foundation walls to cover the floor
slabs and keep the moisture in the concrete from escaping too soon.
.
2.0 cy = Shed footings
6.0 cy = Shed wall
3.0 cy = Shed floor slabs
11.0 cy Shed total
+4.5 cy = Patio pour
15.5 cy total
At 4,000 lb. per cy that's 62,000 lb. of concrete delivered this summer with 44,000 lb. going into the shed.
Saturday's pour went well enough. With the ground drier and firmer than earlier this spring the truck was able to access both shed buildings this time. This meant it could drop the concrete straight out of the chute so there was no need for any wheel barrowing or bucket brigades. Just putting the concrete around with the steel garden rake and maybe a shovel.
As with the other pours I had friends help me with this one. We would pour about 1-2 ft all the way across the slab area and then lift the rebar grid up into the middle of the concrete. A little shake to re-settle the concrete under the rebar and the wet concrete would keep the steel supported. No need for dobie blocks, rocks, rebar chairs, or other supports.
After the rebar was lifted into place the wet concrete was screeded until we reached the end of the 1-2 ft pour. Then the process would start again with another 1-2 ft of concrete placed. In this manner we worked our way from one end of the buildings to the other.
Pouring inside a taller foundation wall was challenging because of the lack of boards or formwork to run the screed on. Fortunately I had glued on the expansion strips to the wall and that at least gave us a 1/2" ledge which was easier to find that a chalk line would have been. But otherwise, most of the slab screeding was done by eye-balling it.
Just after the screeding was done the slabs were bull floated which smoothed and evened them out a lot. After that I cut in some beveled slopes at the door openings so rainwater dripping down the doors won't flow into the building interiors. Again, just eye-balling it but they turned out well.
The night before I tape plastic sheeting over the foundation wall to keep any wet concrete from mucking up the nice smooth foundation wall surface. While it did this very well the side benefit was being able to flip the plastic over the slabs late in the evening to help keep the moisture in the concrete until it cures enough. Premature letting the concrete dry out can increase chances of surface cracking and lead to weaker slabs. I figure over the next week I'll lift up the plastic and hose down the slabs to keep them nice and wet.
However, there were a few problems with the pour:
I waited too long to cut in the control joints. If I had dont it immediately after bull floating any large aggregate would have easily be pushed into the wet concrete. Instead as the groover was pushed a long the concrete was a little to firm so the aggregate wouldn't move out of the way and instead pushed the groover around. While the control joints are more or less straight there's a wiggle along their length.
I also waited too long to hit the slabs with the steel trowel. It's not an exact science and you need to wait until the surface water is re-absorbed after bull floating. There was a 15-20 minute window where I was cleaning the equipment and putting things away that the concrete started setting up too much. So now about 20% of the concrete has a rougher texture from the bull float where the steel trowel couldn't smooth it out.
And finally, there is some variation in the floor level. It's only about 1/4 - 3/8".
The concrete truck getting ready to start pouring into the small shed building first.
Both slabs have been poured but only the small was has been bull floated yet.
This is what the rough screeding job looked like before it was floated.
And this is after bull floating. Some float marks are still
visible and the control joint has been cut in.
A detail showing the beveled area in the door openings for drainage.
The plastic sheeting was flipped over the foundation walls to cover the floor
slabs and keep the moisture in the concrete from escaping too soon.
.
Random Guy
Well-known member
- Joined
- Jun 16, 2009
- Messages
- 155
Just so you know, (and I may be wrong about this) you can't put direct burial cable in conduit. You have to pull individual conductors, which will probably cost less than the direct burial anyways.
Ok, cool.
I will definitely double check on what's needed before I pull anything. Although I don't know why you couldn't pull direct burial. I'd think simply being buried in dirt would be tougher environment than sitting in a conduit.
digdug18
Well-known member
Damn your ****, i would have gotten a shed at Home depot and been done with it by now.
993James993
Well-known member
- Joined
- Feb 24, 2008
- Messages
- 524
Looking great! Keep it wet for 28 days!
mmhouse
Well-known member
And to think my wife thought I may have gone a bit overboard on my shed. I'm going to show her yours and she'll be happy as a clam! 
Random Guy
Well-known member
- Joined
- Jun 16, 2009
- Messages
- 155
It has to do with heat dissipation.