Shop heater for remote cabin

[finn]

How much wood does yours hold and what do you have for a blower?

Just measured: the firebox is ~27” wide X 13” deep X 17” useable tall. It has a simple thermostatically controlled bi metallic strip cage fan mounted low in the back that blows air up and over the firebox.

Nothing fancy. It’s an old 1960s era Montgomery Ward branded stove. Never got around to replacing it with something more modern and efficient, and it’s old enough now that it has its own mid century modern charm.


We probably only burn a quarter or half cord of wood in it these days. Lugging out the ashes gets old.

 

[472scout]

Just measured: the firebox is ~27” wide X 13” deep X 17” useable tall. It has a simple thermostatically controlled bi metallic strip cage fan mounted low in the back that blows air up and over the firebox.

Nothing fancy. It’s an old 1960s era Montgomery Ward branded stove. Never got around to replacing it with something more modern and efficient, and it’s old enough now that it has its own mid century modern charm.


We probably only burn a quarter or half cord of wood in it these days. Lugging out the ashes gets old.

Well no wonder. We could and would load 3x the wood of your stoves capacity and our fan could be felt 25 feet away.

 

[yeldogt]

Heating any space when it's really cold is going to take time. When I was a kid our house at the shore had a gas floor heater and that took longer then would have liked --- even in the spring and fall at 55 degrees.

You need lots of BTU s and time --- as the transfer is mostly from the air to surfaces.

When I built my log cabin kit in PA many years ago the answer was electric baseboard and later a propane cabinet heater to help out as the electric was expensive ... we had a wood stove ... but, that got old quick as time went on.

 

[Jackfre]

Heating any space when it's really cold is going to take time. When I was a kid our house at the shore had a gas floor heater and that took longer then would have liked --- even in the spring and fall at 55 degrees.

You need lots of BTU s and time --- as the transfer is mostly from the air to surfaces.

When I built my log cabin kit in PA many years ago the answer was electric baseboard and later a propane cabinet heater to help out as the electric was expensive ... we had a wood stove ... but, that got old quick as time went on.

My apologies, but I have to point out the Yogi-ism. “…that got old quick as time went on.” Good one

 

[finn]

Well no wonder. We could and would load 3x the wood of your stoves capacity and our fan could be felt 25 feet away.

A stove that takes 3x the wood mine does would also take up 3x the space. The great room is 20x24 and the whole building footprint is (was) only 24’x40’.

And more often than not I had to open the windows at midnight because it got too hot in there, despite the outside temperature being in the teens.

It just takes time to warm up that mad. It’s all thermodynamics, heat transfer, and air circulation.
Also, explain how your fan heats up the bedroom and bath. It really doesn’t circulate much except in the room the stove is in.

 

[kelpaso1]

A stove that takes 3x the wood mine does would also take up 3x the space. The great room is 20x24 and the whole building footprint is (was) only 24’x40’.

And more often than not I had to open the windows at midnight because it got too hot in there, despite the outside temperature being in the teens.

It just takes time to warm up that mad. It’s all thermodynamics, heat transfer, and air circulation.
Also, explain how your fan heats up the bedroom and bath. It really doesn’t circulate much except in the room the stove is in.

Then you dont know how to work a stove properly. Spring, small wood, small fire. I have never overheated my house because I know how to work a stove.

 

[purplezr2]

Curious to the location of the cabin, see your user name is Aaronmn,

Cabin located at the Northwest Angle on an island by chance?

 

[472scout]

A stove that takes 3x the wood mine does would also take up 3x the space. The great room is 20x24 and the whole building footprint is (was) only 24’x40’.

And more often than not I had to open the windows at midnight because it got too hot in there, despite the outside temperature being in the teens.

It just takes time to warm up that mad. It’s all thermodynamics, heat transfer, and air circulation.
Also, explain how your fan heats up the bedroom and bath. It really doesn’t circulate much except in the room the stove is in.

I'm not going to debate. I made 2 posts stating that OUR stove heated up our shop very quickly. You quoted me saying that was basically incorrect. I pointed out that your stove and fan are much smaller than ours were hence the difference. Moving air from one room to another is not rocket science.

 

[aaronmn]

Curious to the location of the cabin, see your user name is Aaronmn,

Cabin located at the Northwest Angle on an island by chance?

You nailed it!! Come on up and help?! Free stay

 

[finn]

I'm not going to debate. I made 2 posts stating that OUR stove heated up our shop very quickly. You quoted me saying that was basically incorrect. I pointed out that your stove and fan are much smaller than ours were hence the difference. Moving air from one room to another is not rocket science.

Ok: move on now.

I didn’t say it’s incorrect, but question whether you are heating a structure that’s cold soaked for a month to the low teens to a “comfortable” level.

My experience heating vacation homes like that in Northern Minnesota, and three in Upper Michigan over a fifty year period says it doesn’t work that way.

 

[sz0k30]

Hope this thread is okay here. I have a small, very, very, remote cabin. I do have electricity.

Can't be that remote if you have electricity.

 

[aaronmn]

Can't be that remote if you have electricity.

It is a geographic anomaly, but remote is accurate.

 

[472scout]

Ok: move on now.

I didn’t say it’s incorrect, but question whether you are heating a structure that’s cold soaked for a month to the low teens to a “comfortable” level.

My experience heating vacation homes like that in Northern Minnesota, and three in Upper Michigan over a fifty year period says it doesn’t work that way.

First time you've brought that up. Our was temps down to 30 below (0 to 10 below more typical) with no heat for up to 4 days. Max 30 minutes to reach 70F. Montana mountains.

And you're correct it doesn't work that way if you don't have the BTUs. i.e. small or medium vs very large stove.

 

[aaronmn]

First time you've brought that up. Our was temps down to 30 below (0 to 10 below more typical) with no heat for up to 4 days. Max 30 minutes to reach 70F. Montana mountains.

And you're correct it doesn't work that way if you don't have the BTUs. i.e. small or medium vs very large stove.

Do you know the size of your stove?

 

[PoorUB]

When the All Star Wrestling is over I would just put cove heaters in each room. They will give you radiant heat and you will feel the heat from them. You will feel warmer faster from the radiant heat. You can put them on thermostats and set them just a bit lower than what you want the cabin temp to be so they kick in if the fire in the stove dies down.

It is a seldom used place and everything else is more hassle.

 

[472scout]

Do you know the size of your stove?

Not exactly, but at least 3x3x2 for the firebox. Just as important was the blower system to extract the heat. We didn't have the best wood, mostly pine.

 

[Jazz1]

I’m guessing you could turn electric heaters on remotely with IPhone so cabin is warmed ahead of arrival.

 

[472scout]

I’m guessing you could turn electric heaters on remotely with IPhone so cabin is warmed ahead of arrival.

Great way to go. Can't do that with wood.

 

[PugetDude]

If you have a source of wood, it's hard to beat a big wood stove for pumping BTU's into a space quickly. Uppgrade to a more efficient stove with a catalytic and integral blower and a Magic Heat unit on a section of bare pipe and it will run you out of there. If you have insulated pipe all the way to the ceiling you're sending a lot of BTU's out the top.

A buddy of mine swore by an Ashley Circulator for his remote cabin in Wyoming; his was similar to this one:

https://www.lowes.com/pd/Ashley-Hearth-Products-2000-Sq-Ft-EPA-Certified-Wood-Burning-Circulator/5000894481

Here's a bigger stove that should take care of your needs; it's a lot more efficient than a 1960's Monkey Wards Stove.

https://www.lowes.com/pd/Ashley-Hearth-Products-3-200-Sq-Ft-EPA-Certified-Large-Pedestal-Wood-Stove/5000894483

 

[finn]

If you have a source of wood, it's hard to beat a big wood stove for pumping BTU's into a space quickly. Uppgrade to a more efficient stove with a catalytic and integral blower and a Magic Heat unit on a section of bare pipe and it will run you out of there. If you have insulated pipe all the way to the ceiling you're sending a lot of BTU's out the top.

A buddy of mine swore by an Ashley Circulator for his remote cabin in Wyoming; his was similar to this one:

https://www.lowes.com/pd/Ashley-Hearth-Products-2000-Sq-Ft-EPA-Certified-Wood-Burning-Circulator/5000894481

Here's a bigger stove that should take care of your needs; it's a lot more efficient than a 1960's Monkey Wards Stove.

https://www.lowes.com/pd/Ashley-Hearth-Products-3-200-Sq-Ft-EPA-Certified-Large-Pedestal-Wood-Stove/5000894483

Had an Ashley at a friends seasonal house. I suspect the Monkey Wards is actually made by Ashley, as it looks and operates quite similar.

We still use it in the spring and fall, but heat with a propane boiler and radiant now.

The only reason to upgrade is to get something that looks better. We have a lifetime supply of wood, and the trees keep growing and need regular thinning.

 

[PoorUB]

I’m guessing you could turn electric heaters on remotely with IPhone so cabin is warmed ahead of arrival.

Only if there is internet, or cell service available. There might not. This isn't the big city!

 

[u3b3rg33k]

Only if there is internet, or cell service available. There might not. This isn't the big city!

if North America, then STARLINK

 

[Jazz1]

if North America, then STARLINK

Yes,,on Starlink here on Black Bay Lake Superior. Its excellent service.

 

[finn]

Yes,,on Starlink here on Black Bay Lake Superior. Its excellent service.

Not sure the economics make sense just to be able to turn on the heat three times per winter.

The people that have Starlink here seem to like it, but availability is limited since it’s still in beta test.

 

[That1Guy]

I hope you have at least one Big *** Fan if that ceiling is that high. Keep that heat down low where it can be useful.
I agree with a bigger woodstove and the magic heat cube. I made one of those magic cube type things out of the top barrel of a double barrel stove many years ago and wow! It worked almost too good. I welded in several full length tubes, lengthwise, in the top barrel, much like those magic heat cubes, and used a box fan to run air through the tubes and it easily doubled the heat extraction from that monster. Not exactly pleasing to the eye, but it got the job done. And speaking of "eyes", one of the neighbors almost lost an eye when he and his brother stopped by the shop one night and had obviously had a few drinks. I was using the box fan to blow exhaust fumes out the window instead of blowing air through the stove. Brother one was looking through the heat tubes on the stove and brother 2 thought it'd be funny to blow into the tube. The air was so hot it literally blistered the surface of his eye. That's what too many barley pops will get ya. That's also why I don't drink - lol. OK, sorry for rambling...

Best of luck figuring out how to best heat your remote cabin. Sounds like a slice of heaven. Lots of opinions and suggestions here. I hope you get it worked out. Please post back, hopefully with some pictures, once you have this dilemma solved. It's always nice to hear the end of the story when you follow these kind of threads.

 

[Bretny]

With tall ceilings your always going to have temp difference..but if you try to blow the hot air down your just cooling it. Blow the cold air to the stove. And for tall ceilings blow cold air up. You dont need a blower on the stove, Infact I find a $20 box fan that I can move around works better. This gives me control of moving cold air out of back rooms.

As to what secondary heat source to use that depends on what you want to use for fuel. Alot of remote places use those on the wall propane heaters. A 100lb propane tank can last a long time if your only useing it a few hours at a time and few trips a year.

I have a little 10x14 shed that's only got 2in of foam in the roof. We use a wood stove and a buddy heater connected to a 20lb tank. A few hours a trip and a few trips a year we use the buddy heater. We are on year 2 of the same 20lb tank.

Not for nothing but cheap $30 portable 1500w electric heaters may be your easiest and most mobile option. They make them with thermostats and remotes for about $45. Dont like how 3 or 4 of them help with heating..return them.

 

[finn]

With tall ceilings your always going to have temp difference..but if you try to blow the hot air down your just cooling it. Blow the cold air to the stove. And for tall ceilings blow cold air up. You dont need a blower on the stove, Infact I find a $20 box fan that I can move around works better. This gives me control of moving cold air out of back rooms.

As to what secondary heat source to use that depends on what you want to use for fuel. Alot of remote places use those on the wall propane heaters. A 100lb propane tank can last a long time if your only useing it a few hours at a time and few trips a year.

I have a little 10x14 shed that's only got 2in of foam in the roof. We use a wood stove and a buddy heater connected to a 20lb tank. A few hours a trip and a few trips a year we use the buddy heater. We are on year 2 of the same 20lb tank.

Not for nothing but cheap $30 portable 1500w electric heaters may be your easiest and most mobile option. They make them with thermostats and remotes for about $45. Dont like how 3 or 4 of them help with heating..return them.

Fans, in themselves, don’t cool the air. The thermal energy in the air is still there, at best, the moving hot air is heating up objects in the room.

Laws of thermodynamics, you know,

 

[Mallen]

Hope this thread is okay here. I have a small, very, very, remote cabin. I do have electricity. Currently, a wood stove is my only source of heat. What would the drawbacks be of using two 5,000 kw shop/garage heaters as supplemental heat? With just the wood stove, it takes many hours to get the space to a tolerable temp. It is not heated all of the time.

2x6 walls. Insulated floor. First floor, with a loft up stairs. Very, very cold climate. 0 degrees may be a high temp in January.

First, the good natured ribbing.
Is this a picture of your 10 MEGAWATT generator? I assume you meant 5000W heater, not 5000KW, which would be 5MW.



If you have 10KW of power available then obviously it will work, or at least you will be able to run the heaters. The second question is, how many hours will you run them and what is the cost per hour. Electricity is about 20 cents/kw here. It tends to range between 10 and 30cents depending on what state you live. That means it costs 2.00/hr to run it. If you run it on average ,say 30 minutes to get the room up to heat then keep it warm with the wood that's about 30 dollars a month. Very reasonable. But if your not disciplined it's going to be a lot more. (be honest with yourself. It's great to say "I am disciplined and I will run it like that" but if it's not the case and your really going to just run it all the time and end up forgeting about the wood, your not doing any favors to yourself by pretending. You don't have to tell us, it's just between you and your wallet) if you run it 5 hours a day, figure between 150 and 300 dollars a month. That may or may not be more money than you would like to spend. If it gets really cold and you run it a lot, it could easily run between $300/mo and 600/mo or more.

Obviously those are off the cuff guestimates. (Actually more of a WAG). You could bring the room to temp and measure the time to cool off and calculate the energy needed to keep it warm and get a better handle on it.

A quick Google search shows a small wood stove puts out around 30-60000btu. There are 3412btu/kwhr. So a good approximation is, your stove probably puts out around 10-15KW already. So those heaters will roughly cut the time to get the room hot in half.

But maybe your stove is really really small. Look at the amount of fuel you use and try to get a handle of the BTU it produces. You probably want to know how those electric heaters compare. If it doesn't look like they will work, kerosene or propane is an option.

 

[Mallen]

Terrible advice. Nothing like pumping warm, moist, fume laden air inside a cabin.

There are indoor rated heaters so fumes should not be an issue. Moisture could be. But if your just running it to get up to temp it should be ok. There are kerosene and propane heaters that are built more like a space heater and are built for that kind of use.

 

[kelpaso1]

There are indoor rated heaters so fumes should not be an issue. Moisture could be. But if your just running it to get up to temp it should be ok. There are kerosene and propane heaters that are built more like a space heater and are built for that kind of use.

Sorry I don't buy it. If you use propane or kero heaters in an enclosed space/house etc, where does the byproducts of combustion go? INTO THAT SPACE is where. There is no getting around it. Just because you don't smell it doesn't mean its not there.

 

[Mallen]

Sorry I don't buy it. If you use propane or kero heaters in an enclosed space/house etc, where does the byproducts of combustion go? INTO THAT SPACE is where. There is no getting around it. Just because you don't smell it doesn't mean its not there.

You mean CO2 and water? Seriously, people have been using these kind of heaters for years and they are perfectly safe so long as they are in good operating condition. This sort of thing where people wave their arms in the air and talk about the so called safety concerns in wide eyed panic is just absurd. If you buy a heater that was made for that purpose, and use it as it's intense it's just fine. The only issue might be moisture if you have poor ventilation.

 

[kelpaso1]

You mean CO2 and water? Seriously, people have been using these kind of heaters for years and they are perfectly safe so long as they are in good operating condition. This sort of thing where people wave their arms in the air and talk about the so called safety concerns in wide eyed panic is just absurd. If you buy a heater that was made for that purpose, and use it as it's intense it's just fine. The only issue might be moisture if you have poor ventilation.

So the CO combustion byproduct of burning any carbon fuel just magically disappears into thin air?

 

[Mallen]

So the CO combustion byproduct of burning any carbon fuel just magically disappears into thin air?

So, these companies sell Kerosene heaters that produce toxic carbon monoxide fumes and kill off all their customers? Are you kidding? Lowe's sells thousands of these things. They don't produce toxic fumes any more than your properly adjusted gas stove. CO is produced primarily where something is combusted with insufficient oxygen for full combustion. That's why your gas stove doesn't kill you.

Simply put, there are Kerosene and Propane heaters that are MADE TO USE INDOORS. They don't produce meaningful amounts of CO. Simply put, your wrong. They are fine. So long as used as per manufacturers instructions and in good working condition. Should you have a CO alarm just in case? Well, that's required most places by the fire code anyway.


I guess it's probably the case that they produce an infinitesimal amount. When I worked in an analytical lab,I used to have to explain to people who wanted to know if there was ANY of a particular substance present, that they had to specify what detection limit they wanted, because I could pretty much see as low as I wanted to, if someone was willing to spend the money to pay for me to do it. Percent? Easy. PPM? Not much harder? PPB? I did it commonly? Parts per trillion? Lower? Give me a big sample and I'll extract it and concentrate it. So I guess if we're talking ANY, then yea, it's probably there. But probably less is produced than what you find in the background anyway.

Simply put, your pontificating from your ******. Get a good quality heater. Not a used one that some idiot screwed with and not some junk import from AliExpress. (I'm more worried about fire actually) Read the manual and operate it as directed. And since this is garage journal, and we all like to fix things, it bears saying, don't ever repair your heater. Send it to a factory authorized repair center or just take it to the dump.

https://www.lowes.com/pd/Dyna-Glo-23800-BTU-Convection-Kerosene-Heater/1000241241

 

[Mallen]

Oh, and I know it sounds like the dumbest thing in the world, but do NOT try to use gasoline. I know, what kind of a grade A idiot would think you could do that, but apperantly, people do.

 

[PCustoms]

Oh, and I know it sounds like the dumbest thing in the world, but do try to use gasoline. I know, what kind of a grade A idiot would think you could do that, but apperantly, people do.

Might want to check that typo.....

Oh the ironing!

 

[Mallen]

What makes you think it's a typo, maybe I'm just a a-hole like that.

 

[finn]

Don’t the available indoor rated ventless heaters have a catalyst that converts the CO to CO2?

 

[cpttuna]

propane furnace ???

 

[Bretny]

Fans, in themselves, don’t cool the air. The thermal energy in the air is still there, at best, the moving hot air is heating up objects in the room.

Laws of thermodynamics, you know,

Still dosnt negate the fact that trying to move hot air by blowing it through a fan dosnt work well. Move the cold to the hot.

 

[Mallen]

Don’t the available indoor rated ventless heaters have a catalyst that converts the CO to CO2?

I know there are propane units that have that. Wouldn't surprise me if they made kerosene with it too. But I bet that would present a potential issue with not being a total ******* and following directions. I know diesel fuels have sulfur and low sulfur diesel was necessary to protect the catalyst. If a kerosene heater had such a thing, then presumably the manual would specify kerosene with low sulfur for the same reasons..

I'm no expert but my understanding was that the propane catalyst heaters didn't use the catalyst explicitly to eliminate CO. My understanding is that the fuel is burned ON the hot catalyst. The result is that the fuel burns completely and very cleanly and does not create any CO to begin with, and maintains the temp of the red hot catalyst, which radiates that heat into the room. A kerosene version would be a little trickier to implement. But it wouldn't surprise me if they have done that.

Still, kerosene heaters are a very old technology and indoor rated units are commonly available. While you do hear of kerosene heater accidents from time to time, considering that there are probably tens of millions of them, if not hundreds of millions, and only a handful of problems, it seems like a pretty reliable old technology.

If you discount the case over in India,Pakistan and the Middle East like "My sister was horribly burned in a "kerosene heater explosion", that miraculously didn't burn down the one room building it was used in, or injure a single other member out of the 15 family members living there, confidentially right after she refused to marry the guy we picked out for her", most of the problems are with very old worn out, improperly repaired units, or people using the wrong fuel.