shop spectators

[galwaytt]

I wish i had a window.. Until i strike up a flame people are like shadows! its getting better now that heath and safety is cracking down, i wish for a day were i can work in my dark damp corner in peace

Ha - I remember working in one shop that was so bad they had polythene under the trusses, to catch the leaks from the roof.........another time, working on a car from a creeper, when I had the ability to have long hair ! - I 'ran over' my own hair.......in a puddle of oil!.........that's only the half of it - I travel my motorcycle, so had to put a helmet over that, later, to ride home !!! Eeeeuuuuuw!

I don't get it. If you are a tech, and are doing a professional, competent job, then why not let the customer watch so they will gain confidence and want to come back?

If you take shortcuts, don't know what your doing, or are just a slacker, then sure, I wouldn't want anyone to watch either. As a customer, if you don't want me to watch, then I figure you are trying to cover up something.

I realize s--t happens. I've worked on mechanical things enough to know that even when someone does their best, things don't always go as planned. Things break. Trying to remove old rusty components often damages adjacent components. I am forgiving of that and am willing to pay extra if the tech is willing to make it right. I am even more willing to pay for it if I see it happen. But if it happens "behind the curtain", I wonder if the tech is just trying to pad the bill just to make a few extra bucks.

C'mon. As a customer, treat me like you care about me. If you treat me with respect, I'll treat you with respect. If you treat me like a jerk, then I'll probably be a jerk.

Respect is a two-street. Why should a tech put up with someone who by default assumes them to be incompetent and sub-skilled? Not being rude - but what do you do for a living, and is it fair to assume that your clients/boss etc, work on the premise of utmost good faith, first, and only from that determine - through an ongoing relationship - that their faith in you is either well or mis-placed ? Anyone can write great CV you know........

CarCrafter, how long do you think it's going to be before Ford just starts attaching the cab with wing nuts and velcro to make it easier???

Crumbs - I didn't realise people still built stuff that way !

i wonder if they will let me go into the kitchen to make sure my meal is prepared to my expectations at a restuarant?

Ha, good one !

I dont trust anyone when it comes to my vehicles. Ive heard to many stories of abuse, and pure negligence. i.e. not replacing filters, half *** work, etc... I myself took my truck to a "Trusted" garage to have a head gasket fixed. $2K and one month later, I had a new engine, and a court case.

A friend of mine works at a local dealership. He once told me about the fishbowl thing. And says when the customer walks in the garagem, they all yell out. "Fish out of water.... Fish out of water!"

You just cant trust everybody anymore...

As my comment above, but don't forget that you're dealing wit PEOPLE, and that being the case, they come in all shapes, sizes, personalities and capabilities. You're only paying for one trait: skill.

Sounds like an excuse to get you out of the way. Maybe someone else (in his shop) was going to actually be doing the work. In any case, if someone can't do the repair while explaining it, they can't do their work well. I mean if that really throws them off, there is something more to it. IMHO.

No, I disagree, for several reasons:
1. The tech is required to use his skill and experience, to get a result: i.e. fix your item. He is not (always) paid to do it in a manner specific, other than that necessary to effect the job properly. There is always more than one way to skin a cat, as they say.......don't tell me that even in the company of the 'perfect tech' that you wouldn't wince when you see him reaching for the 4lb hammer.........it's in the toolbox for a reason...........him using it won't make him 'bad' or 'worse' than anyone else.

2. He is also paid to be effective at the (repair) job. He is not an entertainer, he is not an educator or teacher, and his ability to do the former should not be confused with his competence to do the latter. If he is skilled at all of those facets, then I suggest he would be an invaluable aid to the formal technical education system !!

3. If your tech is competent, but not a great communicator, well................that's what service writer's are for

4. Finally, another reason we on this board shouldn't take all this so personal: we know too much ! The vast majority of the motoring public have neither the interest nor the inclination to visit workshops, thankfully !

Finally, for such a litigous country, I can't for the life of me understand how anyone is allowed within an ***' roar of a working 'shop !

 

[Moose-LandTran]

I'll throw in my view on this..

I don't like pople standing watching because it makes me nervous. I have anthropophobia and xenophobia (Fear of people, fear of stangers.) and it's makes me anxious/on edge when people watch me or stare at me. It stresses me out to the point i get very agitated and even violent.

It's not because i'm a hack or incompetent, i just want to be left alone to get on with my work. If i wanted to teach people how to fix their own cars, i'd be a teacher. I don't want customers hanging around me when i'm working because i don't want to be answering all their questions, treading on eggshells etc..

I've had customers come over to me when i'm working, asking me what i'm doing every other second, asking why i'm doing it, telling me that i'm doing it wrong, telling me how it should be done.

I put the car back as it was, take it off the ramp and ask them to leave. If you don't trust me to do my job, **** off and take your car elsewhere.

Usually, when customers asked if they could go onto the shop floor i told them that for insurance reasons that wasn't allowed.

When working for a friend, one of his other techs kept coming over and telling me i was doing a job wrong. I told him to piss off and leave me alone, repeatedly. He kept coming over until i shouted at him. Then he just stood in his bay and stared at me, i warned him again and so he came over and started at me from about 2' away. He weren't so ******* smart when i hit him with a pickle fork.

 

[krusty the clown]

Some people have no clue about how flat rate works....

yep......and that while i entertain them it's costing me time and money.

 

[mkdive]

Dang moose, remind me not to piss you off!!!

 

[Moose-LandTran]

Dang moose, remind me not to piss you off!!!

I can't handle people staring at me. I warned him and he didn't listen. Aside from everything else he did to piss me off, that was the final straw. Apparently being hit with an 18" pickle fork is a good enough inscentive to shut up and leave me alone..

 

[krusty the clown]

I can't handle people staring at me. I warned him and he didn't listen. Aside from everything else he did to piss me off, that was the final straw. Apparently being hit with an 18" pickle fork is a good enough inscentive to shut up and leave me alone..

did you let him keep the pickle

 

[Moose-LandTran]

did you let him keep the pickle

Nope, just the welt.

 

[caper]

As an auto mechanic, you are primarily working in the customer service field, not a technical one.

I bet thousands of automotive techs would argue with that opinion.Cars and trucks are more technical now than ever.When we have to spend half our day using scopes,multimeters and computers to diagnose problems it's hard to say it's not a technical job.These aren't the days of going to work with a pair of vise grips and a ballpein hammer,if they were then most of the guys wanting to watch wouldn't need us in the first place.The last thing I want is some guy hanging over my shoulder while I diag some obscure electrical issue.I'm kinda like Moose,I don't play well with others.Even my coworkers stay out of my way and give me space.

 

[Moose-LandTran]

I'm kinda like Moose,I don't play well with others. Even my coworkers stay out of my way and give me space.

Only one guy i've worked with has understood to just leave me alone to work. Coincidentally also a very good friend of mine.

One job i moved from the office (front desk, customer liason etc.) into the workshop, for the 2 months after that i was constantly asked how to do stuff, to do the bodyshop computer, to teach the newbie etc. That pissed me off no end. Then they wanted me to explain stuff to customers, whose vehicles i wasn't even working on. And i had to go to the office to explain stuff to the other working the front desk, or get on the phone to describe parts to suppliers, usually for cars i wasn't working on.

And then i'd get bitched at for low productivity. In the end, i got the boot for it. Wonderful.

 

[crewchief888]

I bet thousands of automotive techs would argue with that opinion.Cars and trucks are more technical now than ever.When we have to spend half our day using scopes,multimeters and computers to diagnose problems it's hard to say it's not a technical job.These aren't the days of going to work with a pair of vise grips and a ballpein hammer,if they were then most of the guys wanting to watch wouldn't need us in the first place.The last thing I want is some guy hanging over my shoulder while I diag some obscure electrical issue.I'm kinda like Moose,I don't play well with others.Even my coworkers stay out of my way and give me space.

i work on contruction equipment, when computers first showed up, we virtually went from beating on stuff with a slegdhammer to using a laptop. this was back before windows 95. everything was in DOS, and for a bunch sledgehammer jockeys it was a rude awakening. thos that couldnt or wouldnt progress with the times got left by the wayside.
the last thing i want is some "knowitall" looking over my shoulder, everybody that ive worked with for the past 20 years knows i dont play well with others.
i'm not at work to be anybody's buddy, i have a job to do plain and simple. i'm a field service tech, and when i have to chase down someone elses screwup, the service managers dont have to say a word. i explain to the "tech" that worked on the problem, in not so kind words exactly how much $$ and time he just cost us, and the fact that now we have yet another customer thats PO'd.
business is business

 

[kaffine]

My problem with flag rate is not getting paid for diag. I spend 3 hours to find where the wire is shorting out in the headliner and I got paid 0.3 hours to splice the wire. Didn't matter how detailed I wrote the story or talked with the service manager about how long it actually took to find the problem. They would complain about my low production but whenever a problem car came in that no one else could fix I was they one they went to. Still if a customer wanted a detailed explanation of what was done I still took the time to give him as much detail as he wanted. The service writers are useless if the customer really wants to know what was done to the car. Flag rate would be better if I ever got to do customer pay but that only went to the long time techs. I might go back to automotive if they start paying for skill. The mechanics that made the most money where the ones doing 60k sevices and brakes. The Technicians that actually fixed the cars got screwed.

The reason I became a Technician is because I got screwed by a mechanic saying they changed a starter when they didn't they changed a $6 relay. And another one replaced a carb just to find out the fuel filter was plugged I had to pay for the carb, fuel filter and tow bills. While I think most are honest too many don't take the time to troubleshoot the first time. Of course that is a result of flat rate it takes to much time to troubleshoot.

 

[Pure Oil]

All I know is if the person watching me was a Daisy Duke type - I would not mind in the least bit...

 

[herbet99]

I spend 3 hours to find where the wire is shorting out in the headliner and I got paid 0.3 hours to splice the wire.

That does ****. Of course, I'll get charged the three hours labor. Someone is making money.

 

[z28snksknr]

I don't take my car to a shop unless I do not have the tools to complete the job needed. When I do bring it in, all I want is to talk with the tech before the job starts because I know my car better than anyone who's working on it and I may have a preference as to what is being done or have specific symptoms regarding the problem. 90% of the time, I've already spent considerable time and effort diagnosing the problem myself and I don't want to pay for him to do what I already did. I've had too many service writers who stare at me while I explain all the symptoms and diagnosis without writing it down for the tech, then I see the tech looking around and testing things I already looked at.

I also want to take a look under the car while it's on a lift since I never get a good look in my garage. I've spotted broken exhaust hangers, nails in my tires, missing grease fittings, and lose bolts. I gladly paid the tech extra time to "tidy" up the car before setting it back down on the ground.

If the shop is busy, I'll wait in the office like a good little customer. If it's slow, I want to see what the tech sees and how he fixes it because next time, I'm going to do it myself.

 

[krusty the clown]

I want to see what the tech sees and how he fixes it because next time, I'm going to do it myself.

i am not in the business to teach.........i spent $10k (30 years ago) for my education

 

[z28snksknr]

i am not in the business to teach.........i spent $10k (30 years ago) for my education

Never said I want the tech to teach me. I said I want to "see what the tech sees". I just want to watch them do the step I can't do at home.

BTW, I spent $130k on my education and I would gladly answer any question about my field that people have, if their eyes didn't glaze over 10 seconds into it everytime.

 

[caper]

If it's slow, I want to see what the tech sees and how he fixes it because next time, I'm going to do it myself.

Another reason not to have spectators-job security.If everybody comes out and sees what we do and how we do it before long they are doing things themselves and we are out of work.If you want to learn go to school don't stand over my shoulder.I don't get paid enough to be a teacher and I certainly don't get the time off teachers do.Then there is the safety aspect of these people seeing a repair done and thinking they know how to do it themselves,screwing it up and causing an accident on the road.

 

[Cobra4B]

labor rates at my shop are
$40 an hour
$50 if you watch
$60 if you help
$70 if you worked on it first

A sign I saw on a service station wall years ago read,
$40.00 per hour.
$65.00 per hour if you watch.
$100.00 per hour if you help.
$150.00 per hour if you have started the job and buggered it up.
$200.00 per hour if your "buddy" said this is how it should be done.

and no we don't loan tools.


EDIT:krusty had the same thought and got it typed out faster

That's pretty funny... need to find that sign for my garage

I might go back to automotive if they start paying for skill. The mechanics that made the most money where the ones doing 60k sevices and brakes. The Technicians that actually fixed the cars got screwed.

Chevy dealer about 45 in north of here in Newport News used to have a "Vette Shop" that consisted of 4 bays and a Master Corvette Technician named Mike Arnold. It was the only place I've ever been 100% comfortable leaving my car (other than a performance shop). Mike would take the time to chat with me about my car and discuss the issues/TSBs etc. etc. that were in the system. He actually respected the fact that I knew the car inside and out and was coming to him b/c I had a warranty on it. I remember him saying that the real money is made by the guys doing basic lube/brake/service jobs and that the warranty rates paid to diagnose a complex electrical gremlin in a car like a Corvette (or any comoplex modern car) doesn't provide a very good return on the time invested.

I don't trust dealer mechanics because I've been around them enough to know the noobs are lazy and incompetent, they don't care enough to check torque settings or do a job w/o damaging the car. They only care about turnover and when working on a car that is someones prized posession that's not acceptable.

Before I found Mike's "vette shop" for warranty work I've had my car joyrided during a state inspection and the door edge chipped when the ***** pulled it on the allignment rack and just flung the door open. Little things like that have lasting effects.

Now I do everything on my own other than things where the tools to do it right cost more than the labor bill. But I also have go-to places that I trust and know how **** I am about my vehicles.

One thing I've found really helps when using a new place/dealer is to type up an outline of what you need done, why, and print the TSB out if applicable. When I got my truck after my grandfather passed I took it in to GM for a laundry list of things before the factory warranty ran out. I had an outline of like 13 items, the symptom/manifestation of the item, and the TSB printed w/ TSB number if there was one. I left that in the truck and showed it to the service writer.

When I got my truck back the tech and written "Thanks... awesome." On my outline/docs. The work was done correctly the first time around and everything was taken care of

 

[bindernut]

WOW! I live in St. Louis, and I can't think of one dealership in my part of town that has a window to let customers watch. And not of them would let a customer stand around in the shop & watch, except maybe Londoff Chevy; their parts dept. is in the shop. There is a walkway along 1 edge from the door past the cashier to the parts counter, but there is alos a big yellow stripe & posted signs saying customer's aren't to cross the line. And unless your car is being worked on right by the walkway you can't see **** anyway. Most of the independent shops won't even let you into the workshop. they might if you need to get something from your car, but that's it, back to the waiting room. most shops have big signs posted about no customers int he shop due to insurance regulations.

early in the thread someone posted that they worked for an ag dealer. I used to work at one also, and it was the same way. Customers could come into the shop, and when they did, whoever they were talking to would stop what they were doing. I also agree w/ the 4 or 5 things they said all farmers think.

 

[z28snksknr]

Another reason not to have spectators-job security.If everybody comes out and sees what we do and how we do it before long they are doing things themselves and we are out of work.If you want to learn go to school don't stand over my shoulder.I don't get paid enough to be a teacher and I certainly don't get the time off teachers do.Then there is the safety aspect of these people seeing a repair done and thinking they know how to do it themselves,screwing it up and causing an accident on the road.

You aren't losing buisness on me since I have taken my car to a shop twice in the last 6 years - for a ****** rebuild, and to install a new engine. I know what I'm doing and have been wrenching for 10 years, but if I'm paying you literally THOUSANDS of dollars to do something to my car, I'm going to see what you are doing and how you did it. I've encountered too much incompetence in the past to do otherwise.

You can defend it any way you want, but it's MY CAR and I have the right to see what you are doing to it. Your annoyance at my presence when I'm the one writing your paycheck that week is not justified. At my job, I have my work reviewed 3 times by 3 different people before the customer gets it back- it's company policy. No one has the ego to think they are incapable of making mistakes.

 

[caper]

You can defend it any way you want, but it's MY CAR and I have the right to see what you are doing to it. Your annoyance at my presence when I'm the one writing your paycheck that week is not justified. At my job, I have my work reviewed 3 times by 3 different people before the customer gets it back- it's company policy. No one has the ego to think they are incapable of making mistakes.

My opinion is that it's MY life and I have every right to tell you to take it somewhere else if your going to stand around watching me.I don't HAVE to work on it.If you don't like the fact that I won't let you watch me take it someplace else.As I said earlier in the thread I had a boss who figured he'd still let customers watch me work after I told him not to.Next customer got "bumped into accidentally"with a greasy wheel bearing.Ruined his nice shirt.I could just as easily "trip" over a customer and have a workers comp claim.I usually end up replacing more parts and taking longer when somebody annoys me.It's not my ego,I know I make mistakes,and I admit when I do.It's more to do with me not being a people person.I barely tolerate being out in pubic let alone having some person I don't know staring at me and questioning me.When someone is watching me I get highly agitated.Not because I don't know what I'm doing,I get most of the technical repairs in just about every shop I've worked in,but because I have a social disorder.Remember it's not paranoia if everyone is really out to get you!

 

[krusty the clown]

You can defend it any way you want, but it's MY CAR and I have the right to see what you are doing to it. Your annoyance at my presence when I'm the one writing your paycheck that week is not justified.

no sir........you have the right to have your car repaired properly by the shop that you have chosen to trust. you have the right to inspect the parts that are replaced. you do not have a "right" to watch me. ask a lawyer.......

you are also not writing my paycheck, my boss does. what you are doing is paying for a service.

 

[kiall1987]

In our workshop you'll be told no way allowed in the workshop for insurance , but if am on site at your place and you ask stupid questions you'll get a stupid question

I don't care if you've been wrenching for 10 years ,obvious you cant fix the problem so f'off

 

[z28snksknr]

no sir........you have the right to have your car repaired properly by the shop that you have chosen to trust. you have the right to inspect the parts that are replaced. you do not have a "right" to watch me. ask a lawyer.......

you are also not writing my paycheck, my boss does. what you are doing is paying for a service.

I understand your point and it is probably valid for you and a few others posting here, but since I've seen work done on my car that is not trustworthy and borderline hack-like, as the customer that is getting the shaft, I'm going to watch you until you can prove to me that I'm getting my money's worth. You, yourself, seem very well educated and you treat your job like a profession. I would have no problem trusting you with my car. I just have not found someone like that in the shops I've worked at, managed, and sold parts to, so I have the viewpoint of "if I don't watch their ***, I'm going to get screwed out of money, or worse, have a poorly repaired vehicle".

 

[GDA]

Very interesting thread.....

As one who wrenches on weekends with friends who also have MBAs, its really difficult to understand why several of you don't want others to watch. I actually enjoy it when others come by while I am doing a difficult repair or major job on one of the cars. Most people are amazed at the amount of expertise needed to accomplish the task and several admit they could never do that themselves.

I think you guys might be underselling yourself by not allowing others to watch as its one of the best ways to demonstrate first hand your total skill set:

knowledge and ability to walk and talk the person through the job
experience and depth of talent to do the job with complete calm (no matter what it throws at you)
demonstrate the skill to do the job right
ability to do the job quickly
charge a reasonable rate based on your publicly displayed talent/attention to detail/workroom etc

 

[z28snksknr]

In our workshop you'll be told no way allowed in the workshop for insurance , but if am on site at your place and you ask stupid questions you'll get a stupid question

I don't care if you've been wrenching for 10 years ,obvious you cant fix the problem so f'off

Wow, that's a bit uncalled for I think.

I never said anyone here, including you, was a dishonest or inept mechanic. I just said that I prefer to watch the guy working on my car do something I can't do at home (with the tools I currently own) and make sure he is doing a good job.

I'm not talking about standing next to you, asking questions and getting in the way. I'm talking about seeing the broken parts, what I'm being charged for, and how the repair is being made.

There's no need to take personal offense here. We're all friends sharing opinions in a civilized manner.

 

[krusty the clown]

its really difficult to understand why several of you don't want others to watch.

because most can't just watch......they have to help by telling you about how uncle jim's car needed this or you need to check that. sometimes it require's a lot of concentration that you can't get with someone trying to help. it usually costs me time and money........it would be different if i was getting paid by the hour instead of flatrate.

 

[GDA]

because most can't just watch......they have to help by telling you about how uncle jim's car needed this or you need to check that. sometimes it require's a lot of concentration that you can't get with someone trying to help. it usually costs me time and money........it would be different if i was getting paid by the hour instead of flatrate.

^ Now that statement makes total sense. I think some are interpreting "watching" and "doing the job and carrying a conversation" as the same. Obviously, they are not and I can see how some owners could then get in the way.

 

[Moose-LandTran]

Its really difficult to understand why several of you don't want others to watch.

Because it makes me very nervous and on edge.

If they're friends, it doesn't bother me. Strangers, it does.

 

[Mr.Nutcase]

The reasons,
The average joe does not know ****....
They will look to you like you are wierd( or they will think you are abusing their car) when you whip out the torch or the big hammer to suspension.....

 

[walrus]

People watch me work on equipment every day but its not their equipment so maybe that makes a difference? I could care less. Sometimes when I'm in a good mood I carry on a conversation like I've known them forever

 

[kiall1987]

Wow, that's a bit uncalled for I think.

I never said anyone here, including you, was a dishonest or inept mechanic. I just said that I prefer to watch the guy working on my car do something I can't do at home (with the tools I currently own) and make sure he is doing a good job.

I'm not talking about standing next to you, asking questions and getting in the way. I'm talking about seeing the broken parts, what I'm being charged for, and how the repair is being made.

There's no need to take personal offense here. We're all friends sharing opinions in a civilized manner.

Who said a was aiming anything at you other than I said ten years I could of said 11 years 15 years am just making a broad point !

 

[z28snksknr]

Who said a was aiming anything at you other than I said ten years I could of said 11 years 15 years am just making a broad point !

It was in my last post before yours. Guess I just assumed you were referencing me.

 

[Stuart in MN]

If the customers were allowed to wander around in the shop, certainly there are safety and liability concerns, but I don't see a problem with there being a window in the waiting room.

I can think of two specific examples of why I like to be able to see what's going on, both times were at tire stores (and mounting tires is something most DIY'ers aren't going to be able to do at home.) One place that had a window claimed they always used a torque wrench to tighten the lug nuts, but I watched the kid working on my car run them down with his impact wrench. Since I saw what happened, I was able to talk to the manager and he went out and torqued them properly. On the other hand, another place that didn't have a window only put the lug nuts on finger tight, but I didn't know it because I wasn't able to see them working on the car. By the time I drove the mile to my house, a couple of the lug nuts had nearly come off - it could have been bad if I'd gotten right on the highway and tried to drive someplace.

Most people who bring their car in for service aren't gearheads, so they're probably not interested in watching anyway. They'll fiddle with their cellphones, or they'll read the ancient People magazines in the waiting room.

 

[herbet99]

So why is there so little work? Are the cars these days that good or are the cars so bad that no one buys them?

Also, If you only have 8 hours of work in 6 days. Why the rush? is it first come first serve as far as who gets the work?

 

[tonydanzah]

That is not how flatrate works. He was only paid for 6 six hours after he stood around for 40hrs waiting for a car to come in.

 

[benjamming]

So why is there so little work? Are the cars these days that good or are the cars so bad that no one buys them?

Lots of reasons - folks not repairing cars, more performing the repairs at home, & still others taking them to independent mechanics where the overheard can be quite a bit lower.

 

[Cobra4B]

I guess car sales and dealer service work are directly correlated... i.e. people only go to the dealer when they have a warranty on their relatively new car.

Now that people are keeping cars longer due to the economy they want to save a buck and go to Joe-independent now.

 

[STORMEASTON]

I'm watching you!

 

[herbet99]

That is not how flatrate works. He was only paid for 6 six hours after he stood around for 40hrs waiting for a car to come in.

Then the necessity to rush is so... to be available in case a new job comes through the door. I'm guessing this wouldn't be a problem if you are the only tech.

What I don't understand yet is how the competition among techs works.

Why rush for 6 hours just to stand around for 34 hours?