Shop wall bowing out

[BigBri]

Looking for some advice/help

I am in the process of building my dream shop. 40 x 60 wood frame building with 2 x 6 studs 12’ High walls and gables on each end. Total height is 23’ with the 8/12 pitch Roof.

The problem I’m having is one of the gable ends is bowing out at the top plate. It is bowed outward 3 1/2”. The baseplate and the peak are plumb but the top plate is pushing uutward making the wall have a V shape top to bottom.

I can pull the wall straight with a ratchet strap but keeping it straight is the problem. There are no joist connecting that wall so it’s a long span.

I have thought about bolting a c8x18 to the face of the top plate and studs but I’m not sure if that would also deflect over such a long span.
Thanks for any help or suggestions.
It’s the wall right above the title “floor plan & plumbing layout”
Brian

 

[matt_i]

The double top plate (iow adding the 2nd top plate) should help handle this if you keep the wall straight as its nailed off. You could potentially also use flat metal strapping in a "V" profile as seen from above, with the vertex near the centerline of the wall. The thin metal would then nail to the bottom chords of the trusses and ideally end at the top plate of the other walls.

See also - Simpson part # CS16 "coiled strap 16 gage"

Imo, bolting on a heavy metal channel is directionally correct but now you are into attaching wood to metal, that's never fast or easy. While it might bolt down quickly, fitting and attaching the endwall truss won't merge with that very fast.

 

[BigBri]

Matt, thanks for the reply.
The trusses are pitched with the roof, like a cathedral ceiling so they can’t be tied to. The roof is (8/12 ceiling is 6/12) so the top plate can’t be tied to it.
Hand drawing of what’s it’s doing and a pic looking up one of the studs, check out the space between the string line and the stud. String line was pulled corner to corner at the top plate

 

[Copymutt]

Not a fan of the way the end wall was constructed. Face off, tie the upper verticals framing members to the wall studs with dimensional lumber and it will all pull together. You'll end up w/ a thicker wall but that's not all bad.
Excuse the chicken scratches.
Jim

 

[kbs2244]

On a wall that long is going to be hard to build stiff.
I am used to seeing 2x4s from wall to wall at a 45 degree across the corners at the top plate.

I your case you would lose some of the vaulted area in the corners.
But that may be the price you have to pay.

 

[Ret Nailbender]

Do you have a single 2x6 top plate? If so, the wall should had been framed with two 2x6 top plates.

 

[like2wheel]

Had that problem with my mom's garage when I was young. Solved it by pulling it straight & building a shelf across to keep it stiff. Shelf came in handy.

Don't know if that works for your situation.

 

[NUTTSGT]

Is the second picture, the wall looking up into the trusses ? Is the wall built in two sections vertically ?

 

[383]

Sawzall 5 1/2" out of the plate and run a 6x6 from the bottom plate to the bottom of the truss. Pull the wall in and nail everything to the post. The building is 40' wide, you could add two 6x6's to the wall and make a huge difference.

 

[BigBri]

Do you have a single 2x6 top plate? If so, the wall should had been framed with two 2x6 top plates.

Yes, it does have a double top plate, just can’t see it in the photo.

 

[mrobins297aaa]

if I'm understanding this correctly you'll never stiffen that wall until you do something like 383 said, you need to cut out that top plate maybe every 4' and run some continuous studs from the bottom plate and tie them to the bottom of the truss.
I had a similar situation where I had a short wall up to the bottom of a end scissor truss and I could not get that wall stiff until I doubled up some 14' 2x4's and made them continuous from the bottom plate up to the bottom of the truss it made a world of difference. This was in a previous house I had.

it's hard to see in the pic but if you look close you can see where the studs are doubled up, the inspector made me put that 10ga plate along the top 2x4 plate which didn't do anything

 

[BigBri]

On a wall that long is going to be hard to build stiff.
I am used to seeing 2x4s from wall to wall at a 45 degree across the corners at the top plate.

I your case you would lose some of the vaulted area in the corners.
But that may be the price you have to pay.

Good idea, I had thought of also using a cable with a turnbuckle as well

 

[BigBri]

Is the second picture, the wall looking up into the trusses ? Is the wall built in two sections vertically ?

Kinda yes, there is a 12 foot wall with double top plate and then the gable is on top of that

 

[BigBri]

if I'm understanding this correctly you'll never stiffen that wall until you do something like 383 said, you need to cut out that top plate maybe every 4' and run some continuous studs from the bottom plate and tie them to the bottom of the truss.
I had a similar situation where I had a short wall up to the bottom of a end scissor truss and I could not get that wall stiff until I doubled up some 14' 2x4's and made them continuous from the bottom plate up to the bottom of the truss it made a world of difference. This was in a previous house I had.

it's hard to see in the pic but if you look close you can see where the studs are doubled up, the inspector made me put that 10ga plate along the top 2x4 plate which didn't do anything

I see what y’all are talking about! Makes sense. I’m going going to look at the framing in the morning and see how I might do this.
Thanks

 

[NUTTSGT]

Kinda yes, there is a 12 foot wall with double top plate and then the gable is on top of that

Does the outside sheathing break on that double top plate or does it span it ?

 

[BigBri]

Does the outside sheathing break on that double top plate or does it span it ?

I’m not sure, but a good point. With what this frame crew has done.... or not done I wouldn’t be surprised if they didn’t stagger the plywood. They already installed the tyvek wrap and brick ties so I can’t really check.

 

[ddawg16]

You took the easy rout.....and now you are paying the price.

Basically, you built the first part of the wall using all the same length studs....put a plate on top of that....then built up the rest.

In other words, you're depending on that first plate to keep the wall straight....which it is not...

I think you need to cut that first plate and put doublers in there.

 

[captaindiode]

Look at this:

https://www.google.com/url?sa=t&sou...FjALegQIBRAB&usg=AOvVaw1cyc0ncZx2lYk4DO0Syhvg

 

[lakeroadster]

Look at this:

https://www.google.com/url?sa=t&sou...FjALegQIBRAB&usg=AOvVaw1cyc0ncZx2lYk4DO0Syhvg

Very Interesting... thanks Captain!

You would think this would be a code requirement?

 

[GMCGarage]

Looking for some advice/help

I am in the process of building my dream shop. 40 x 60 wood frame building with 2 x 6 studs 12’ High walls and gables on each end. Total height is 23’ with the 8/12 pitch Roof.

The problem I’m having is one of the gable ends is bowing out at the top plate. It is bowed outward 3 1/2”. The baseplate and the peak are plumb but the top plate is pushing uutward making the wall have a V shape top to bottom.

I can pull the wall straight with a ratchet strap but keeping it straight is the problem. There are no joist connecting that wall so it’s a long span.

I have thought about bolting a c8x18 to the face of the top plate and studs but I’m not sure if that would also deflect over such a long span.
Thanks for any help or suggestions.
It’s the wall right above the title “floor plan & plumbing layout”
Brian

Can you take out the blocking and frame in full height studs? You essentially built a hinge into the wall. Either need continuous member, or a beam behind to remove the hinge. It will be a massive beam to handle the load and deflection.

Other option is to use plywood and attach to the underside of the trusses and the top plate that is their. Essentially creating a diaphragm using plywood.

The details will be in the connections though.

 

[NUTTSGT]

Look at this:

https://www.google.com/url?sa=t&sou...FjALegQIBRAB&usg=AOvVaw1cyc0ncZx2lYk4DO0Syhvg

I believe this is one of the most informative link posted here. Thanks to lakeroadster for bringing a section of it over here.


Notice how the full length studs run all the way to the top ? Laying the exterior sheathing out to span as many studs as possible will help strengthen the wall too.

If the work crew doesn't fix this mistake, than you need to or find somebody that will before any exterior finish goes on.

 

[lakeroadster]

I believe this is one of the most informative link posted here. Thanks to lakeroadster for bringing a section of it over here.

I've learned many members here won't click on a link... or in other words...

 

[The Tool Tyrant]

As others have suggested, best fix at this point would be to cut the plates at the hinge point and run continuous 4x6 or 6x6 posts from the bottom plate to the top plate. Personally, I'd start at the center, installing the posts @ 8'0 O.C. each direction and if that doesn't suffice, add an additional post in between. Finally, run Simpson coil strap at the block line to tie it back together.
Your "framers" should have known better!

 

[BigBri]

Great info and that link was awesome. I believe this is gonna be my next course of action.
I’m going to not touch the 2 x 6 top plates and install double 2x4’s and sandwich the studs together.
I think that should work. I think I’m going to do every stud for piece of mind as the cost is not going to be bad at all just a lot of time.
What do y’all think
Thanks again for the advice.
BTW the frame crew quit.

 

[BigBri]

This is what I have in mind.

 

[vavet]

Lots of helpful responses here.

I can't help with specific advice, but I can offer this: talk to your building inspector sooner rather than later. They might have other ideas and if you point out problems they might otherwise miss, they'll be more critical when it comes time to do their inspections. Thats not a bad thing, IMHO.

 

[lakeroadster]

What do y’all think

Did you get a permit? Are there inspections?

If the answer is yes an engineer will need to approve the changes and someone will need to revise the drawings and resubmit them to the county / city.

I'd suggest to the engineer that the existing top plate be cut and 2x6's installed on 16" c/l's, sistered to the existing 2's.

And I'd be pushing the engineering firm to do the updates for free... they should have known better.

 

[BigBri]

Did you get a permit? Are there inspections?

If the answer is yes an engineer will need to approve the changes and someone will need to revise the drawings and resubmit them to the county / city.

I'd suggest to the engineer that the existing top plate be cut and 2x6's installed on 16" c/l's, sistered to the existing 2's.

And I'd be pushing the engineering firm to do the updates for free... they should have known better.

I live in a small town, engineering is not required and the plans as built were approved.

 

[Homerr]

This is what I have in mind.

I've been designing and drawing homes for 30 years. This seems woefully inadequate and I think you're overestimating what 2x4's will do.

Keep in mind that you're not just straightening the wall for aesthetics, it should be structurally sound to withstand seismic and, probably more critically, high wind loads. All of us quasi-engineering this is probably a bad idea.

Get an engineer involved for a few hundred bucks. They will probably want everything shored back to eliminate the V and then block the bottom chords of the trusses and possibly plywood the ceiling to create a diaphragm at the ceiling; or they may have a way to diagonally brace the top plates up through the truss webbing to the roof diaphragm; or something like what 383 said at so many feet on center in the gable. If you have no idea what I'm talking about then it really is time to call an engineer.

 

[lakeroadster]

I live in a small town, engineering is not required and the plans as built were approved.

You're modifying the construction such that it no longer meets the specified plans that were approved.

Just be aware, if there is ever an issue, your modifications may shift responsibility away from the engineering firm and back on to you.

Whenever there is an issue or failure the first thing that inspectors look for is a deviation from the approved plans.

Just looking out for you. Good luck with your project.

 

[RocketScott]

If the top of the truss is good all those flat blocks at the top of the wall are probably pushing the gable out. When you ratchet it back in do you have a bulge in the gable truss at that spot?

I'd start by removing anything in the trusses that connects the gable end to the rest of the trusses then see where it sits.

 

[dave_dj1]

One well placed 4x6 in the center should straighten things right up. Maybe add a couple of brackets where you cut the plate for it.
Why did they use a truss and then frame in front of it?

 

[LXCam]

This is what I have in mind.

That won't work. You're not understanding how to mitigate the hinge point that splitting the framing at the top plate created. The only way to straighten that wall and maintain it plumb is to do as suggested. Or you could sister it on the inside but you'll lose depth either the entire wall or maybe create three columns.

Good luck.

 

[BigBri]

One well placed 4x6 in the center should straighten things right up. Maybe add a couple of brackets where you cut the plate for it.
Why did they use a truss and then frame in front of it?

The 2x4 were added to make the inside wall flush for sheet rock

 

[BigBri]

That won't work. You're not understanding how to mitigate the hinge point that splitting the framing at the top plate created. The only way to straighten that wall and maintain it plumb is to do as suggested. Or you could sister it on the inside but you'll lose depth either the entire wall or maybe create three columns.

Good luck.

I thought that was what I was basically drawing out. Studs going from the floor to the truss. I’m just going to sandwich the existing studs between them.

 

[GMCGarage]

Great info and that link was awesome. I believe this is gonna be my next course of action.
I’m going to not touch the 2 x 6 top plates and install double 2x4’s and sandwich the studs together.
I think that should work. I think I’m going to do every stud for piece of mind as the cost is not going to be bad at all just a lot of time.
What do y’all think
Thanks again for the advice.
BTW the frame crew quit.

I dont think 2-2x4's is the same as a 2x6, the moment of inertia is off by 2 times, meaning your 2-2x4's will deflect twice as much as the 2x6. You cant count on the 2x6 reall since it has a big gap in it where the plates are at.

Cut out the top plate at each stud and sister 1-2x6 full height to the existing.

 

[firebirdparts]

2x4's will work beautifully, and are very strong compared with the nothing whatsoever that you have now. My opinion.

Top plates would actually have been adequate had they been straight, but 2x4's from floor to ceiling will be much stronger.

 

[BigBri]

I dont think 2-2x4's is the same as a 2x6, the moment of inertia is off by 2 times, meaning your 2-2x4's will deflect twice as much as the 2x6. You cant count on the 2x6 reall since it has a big gap in it where the plates are at.

Cut out the top plate at each stud and sister 1-2x6 full height to the existing.

I can’t use a 2x6 all the way to the top as the end gable truss would be in the way. In this picture you can see the 2x6 studs ending at the top plate, and then there is a gable on top of the top plate and a 2x4 wall that goes up behind the gable. The gable will be in the way of running a 2x6 all the way up.
I hope I’m explaining that correctly.
I would rather use 2x6’s but they won’t work/fit the upper wall.

 

[BigBri]

This shows the sizes

 

[lakeroadster]

Propose the following to the engineer:

Cut the top plate, beside each (**) vertical stud, making a 1-1/2" wide slot that is 3-1/2" deep. You can use a hand held circular saw for this or a sawzall, or both.

Install a new 2 x 6 top double top plate to the top chord of the gable truss. Where these top plates meet at the ridge use Simpson heavy plate and 3" structural screws. (you can temporarily add 2 x 4's on the top chord of the gable truss to the 1st scissor truss to support the new double top plates.)

Slide a 2 x 6 into the slot and attach it to the existing studs. This 2 x 6 will go from the bottom sill plate all the way to the new top plate at the top of the gable truss.

Attach the top of the new 2 x 6 studs to the new top plate using Simpson angle brackets and structural 1-1/2" screws.

You will loose 1-1/2" of interior space.

(**) The Engineer may allow you to do these on 32" c/l's (every other stud) instead of every stud. You can then use 1-1/2" x 1-1/2" to space out the other studs for your wall sheathing.

This eliminates the "hinge effect".

____________________________________________

And this is why you need to get an engineer involved. None of us know the specific environmental conditions at your location.

One guy says 2 x 4's may not work, one guy says they will work "beautifully". The Engineer will evaluate the design based on your specific site conditions, environmental conditions and zoning requirements.

I dont think 2-2x4's is the same as a 2x6, the moment of inertia is off by 2 times, meaning your 2-2x4's will deflect twice as much as the 2x6. You cant count on the 2x6 reall since it has a big gap in it where the plates are at.

Cut out the top plate at each stud and sister 1-2x6 full height to the existing.

2x4's will work beautifully, and are very strong compared with the nothing whatsoever that you have now. My opinion.

Top plates would actually have been adequate had they been straight, but 2x4's from floor to ceiling will be much stronger.