Shop wall bowing out

[mrobins297aaa]

go out and buy two 2x4's long enough to go from floor to bottom of truss.
now notch out the 2x6 top plate sister the 2x4's to the 2x6 wall studs and 2x4 studs above.
when your finished you'll be amazed at how stiff that makes your wall.
now go out and buy the rest of the 2x4's you need.

your over thinking this...........as we use to say in the trades "this stuff is 90% common sense and a car that starts".

 

[mrobins297aaa]

by the way you should never have had a gable end truss on the end with scissor trusses, the truss manufacturer should have told you that.

at each end of the building the trusses have to be the same so you can properly brace the bottom chords. Just like the examples lakeroadster showed in his post.

I'm no expert but I went threw this when I build my last barn I wanted a gable truss on the end that had scissor trusses and the truss manufacturer said he couldn't do it because there was no way to brace it.

 

[GMCGarage]

2x4's will work beautifully, and are very strong compared with the nothing whatsoever that you have now. My opinion.

Top plates would actually have been adequate had they been straight, but 2x4's from floor to ceiling will be much stronger.

I dont think that 2x6's spanning 40feet are adequate.

 

[GMCGarage]

I can’t use a 2x6 all the way to the top as the end gable truss would be in the way. In this picture you can see the 2x6 studs ending at the top plate, and then there is a gable on top of the top plate and a 2x4 wall that goes up behind the gable. The gable will be in the way of running a 2x6 all the way up.
I hope I’m explaining that correctly.
I would rather use 2x6’s but they won’t work/fit the upper wall.

Sorry, didnt see that. I guess 2x4's is the best you can do without loosing some interior space. If its not required to be engineered/signed off on by inspector, then thats better than what you have. hopefully first big windstorm you will know how it performs!

 

[tapered-pin]

what do you have in place for permanent truss bracing?
why does your gable end (scissor) truss not rest ON the exterior end wall?

 

[BigBri]

what do you have in place for permanent truss bracing?
why does your gable end (scissor) truss not rest ON the exterior end wall?

The trusses are braced to each other with 2x4’s and the Roof plywood. The inside ceiling will have plywood as well.
The gable truss is on the exterior wall, it rests on the entire top plate on the gable wall.

 

[RocketScott]

Did you read my post?

 

[dave_dj1]

The 2x4 were added to make the inside wall flush for sheet rock

I get that but in your application we would have just framed the gable and not used a gable truss.

 

[dave_dj1]

go out and buy two 2x4's long enough to go from floor to bottom of truss.
now notch out the 2x6 top plate sister the 2x4's to the 2x6 wall studs and 2x4 studs above.
when your finished you'll be amazed at how stiff that makes your wall.
now go out and buy the rest of the 2x4's you need.

your over thinking this...........as we use to say in the trades "this stuff is 90% common sense and a car that starts".

Instead of using regular old 2x4's you get a microlam and rip it down to 3.5" , it would be bueno

 

[tapered-pin]

The trusses are braced to each other with 2x4’s and the Roof plywood. The inside ceiling will have plywood as well.
The gable truss is on the exterior wall, it rests on the entire top plate on the gable wall.

Did the trusses come with erection plans?
I've historically had to brace several trusses together with permanent bracing (1X4, typically) at the bottom (green below) and top (red below) chord..

I only ask because the entire roof system would still be susceptible to racking if you only brace each truss to the trusses on either side of it.

 

[BigBri]

Did you read my post?

Yes, sorry. There is no bulge after pulling the wall straight. I think the wall leaned after they finished the roof.

 

[BigBri]

Did the trusses come with erection plans?
I've historically had to brace several trusses together with permanent bracing (1X4, typically) at the bottom (green below) and top (red below) chord..

I only ask because the entire roof system would still be susceptible to racking if you only brace each truss to the trusses on either side of it.

I know they tied them together like the green lines length way, I’m not sure if they did any diagonal bracing but can check when I get off work.
The trusses did come with erection dwgs, I just assumed the framers followed the instructions.

 

[BigBri]

Instead of using regular old 2x4's you get a microlam and rip it down to 3.5" , it would be bueno

I will read up on microlam, thanks

 

[tapered-pin]

the roof assembly should be so stiff that it helps laterally support the walls that hold it up.

it might not be a bad idea to get up into the scissor trusses and check them for plumb with a 4' level (or plumb bob, of course) - just to make sure your roof assembly didn't rack any.

 

[NUTTSGT]

I can’t use a 2x6 all the way to the top as the end gable truss would be in the way. In this picture you can see the 2x6 studs ending at the top plate, and then there is a gable on top of the top plate and a 2x4 wall that goes up behind the gable. The gable will be in the way of running a 2x6 all the way up.
I hope I’m explaining that correctly.
I would rather use 2x6’s but they won’t work/fit the upper wall.

They would fit if you notched them. While it may not be the strongest solution, it would allow you to fasten the exterior sheathing to sistered 2x6.


Right or wrong, I honestly don't know.



EDIT: ****, just realized this thread has went to three pages.

 

[WNYflyer]

I live in a small town, engineering is not required and the plans as built were approved.

From looking at your initial post, the drawings done look like they were professionally done. Who did the design/drawings? Did the framers build/erect the roof trusses and gable end in accordance with the drawings? If the framers interpreted the drawings correctly then I would first make the problem your designers problem and not yours. If the framers took liberties as in "this is the way we have always done it" then I would be going after them. I wouldn't be knocking myself out and messing around with it if someone other than yourself is responsible for the design.........make it the designer or framers problem first if they were the responsible party for the design.

If no real design was done well then you are probably going to have to get an engineer involved.

 

[BigBri]

From looking at your initial post, the drawings done look like they were professionally done. Who did the design/drawings? Did the framers build/erect the roof trusses and gable end in accordance with the drawings? If the framers interpreted the drawings correctly then I would first make the problem your designers problem and not yours. If the framers took liberties as in "this is the way we have always done it" then I would be going after them. I wouldn't be knocking myself out and messing around with it if someone other than yourself is responsible for the design.........make it the designer or framers problem first if they were the responsible party for the design.

If no real design was done well then you are probably going to have to get an engineer involved.

So it was a local designer who drew the plans, a truss company from TX that designed and built the trusses, and a local company that erected the building.
While I could possibly go after any one of them I know in the long run I will have a shop I can’t use sitting idle while it all gets hashed out. On top of that the stress of fighting something like this and the expense just isn’t worth it to me.
I would rather spend a little extra and get this project done and move on with life. My end goal is to have some place dry to work on my cars.
Thanks

 

[James-W]

So it was a local designer who drew the plans, a truss company from TX that designed and built the trusses, and a local company that erected the building.
While I could possibly go after any one of them I know in the long run I will have a shop I can’t use sitting idle while it all gets hashed out. On top of that the stress of fighting something like this and the expense just isn’t worth it to me.
I would rather spend a little extra and get this project done and move on with life. My end goal is to have some place dry to work on my cars.
Thanks

I understand your frustration and I sympathize with your situation. But in the final analysis the building is going to have to pass inspection. Depending on how knowledgeable and strict the building inspector is, you may have a major expense getting the building up to code.

 

[climb.on]

So it was a local designer who drew the plans, a truss company from TX that designed and built the trusses, and a local company that erected the building.
While I could possibly go after any one of them I know in the long run I will have a shop I can’t use sitting idle while it all gets hashed out. On top of that the stress of fighting something like this and the expense just isn’t worth it to me.
I would rather spend a little extra and get this project done and move on with life. My end goal is to have some place dry to work on my cars.
Thanks

Just to push this option a little...you don't have to threaten to sue right out of the gate. But you certainly can ask them to explain what happened. If they are reputable contractors, they won't necessarily "fight" you on it. It never hurts to have the conversation. You did hire and pay these folk good money to do a job, and there is a problem. Hey **** happens it doesn't automatically have to mean a lawsuit or nothing. There can be some middle ground. You'll know pretty quickly how it's going to go.

 

[James-W]

Just to push this option a little...you don't have to threaten to sue right out of the gate. But you certainly can ask them to explain what happened. If they are reputable contractors, they won't necessarily "fight" you on it. It never hurts to have the conversation. You did hire and pay these folk good money to do a job, and there is a problem. Hey **** happens it doesn't automatically have to mean a lawsuit or nothing. There can be some middle ground. You'll know pretty quickly how it's going to go.

I agree with you in principle, when a contractor screws up they should correct their error. But the reality is that very few contractors are willing to take a loss and re-do a job for free, unless you take them to court and win. He can certainly try talking with them, but I wouldn't count on the conversation being fruitful.

 

[BigBri]

I agree with you in principle, when a contractor screws up they should correct their error. But the reality is that very few contractors are willing to take a loss and re-do a job for free, unless you take them to court and win. He can certainly try talking with them, but I wouldn't count on the conversation being fruitful.

More like no conversation at all. There were other smaller things that need addressing that he never came back to fix as well as installing the porch columns and beams. (I had to put them up) he stoped taking my calls 4 weeks ago and hasn’t responded to text ether. Last text I got from said “I know you are ready you kill me but I promise I will finish everything”
I wasn’t upside down on his payments so it’s not like he took off with my money, still had enough left to pay that I would have come pack for the last draw....but maybe he saw this wall and figured it was time to tap out.
I went through something like this with a plumber when I built my house, failed final inspection because of a plumbing flaw. Plumber refused to fix it ($3000 for me to hire a new plumber to pass inspection). The plumber put a lien on the house for what I owed him $2000. After a year in a half we go to court and the judge said I should have paid him and then sued afterwards, then said the “house looked fine in her opinion” I even had to pay his attorney fees. All for something he did wrong, that wouldn’t pass inspection.
So yes it’s not worth it to me to go through this again. The stress and anger it out on myself and my wife lasted for years.

 

[GMCGarage]

What location are you in? That way we can determine the wind loading on the wall and check it for double 2x4's you want to try and use.

 

[climb.on]

More like no conversation at all. There were other smaller things that need addressing that he never came back to fix as well as installing the porch columns and beams. (I had to put them up) he stoped taking my calls 4 weeks ago and hasn’t responded to text ether. Last text I got from said “I know you are ready you kill me but I promise I will finish everything”
I wasn’t upside down on his payments so it’s not like he took off with my money, still had enough left to pay that I would have come pack for the last draw....but maybe he saw this wall and figured it was time to tap out.
I went through something like this with a plumber when I built my house, failed final inspection because of a plumbing flaw. Plumber refused to fix it ($3000 for me to hire a new plumber to pass inspection). The plumber put a lien on the house for what I owed him $2000. After a year in a half we go to court and the judge said I should have paid him and then sued afterwards, then said the “house looked fine in her opinion” I even had to pay his attorney fees. All for something he did wrong, that wouldn’t pass inspection.
So yes it’s not worth it to me to go through this again. The stress and anger it out on myself and my wife lasted for years.

That sounds like a painful experience with the plumber and totally understand your approach here...I'd do the same. Often court and lawyers isn't worth it. I just like to encourage people to at least try talking through things, if they haven't already tried. It's amazing how many people just don't want to deal with any confrontation. You'll get this worked out.

 

[The Tool Tyrant]

Okay Bri, here's some 'out of the box thinking' for you to ponder.

1) Remove all the 2x4 rake fill studs.
2) Order a 40' (Standard length) piece of 4x4x3/8"L (angle iron) (40' weighs 392#)
3) Layout and drill 1/2" holes 16"o/c thru one web (locate holes to hit the center of the stud bays of the wall)
4) Clamp a 2x4 plate over the holes and drill through the existing holes (this will become your new bottom plate for the gable fill rake studs)
5) Place the angle on top of the wall plates with the vertical flange butting the bottom chord of the gable end truss.
6) Align the wall to plumb.
7) Using the holes as a guide, drill 1/2" holes through the top plates.
8) Place the drilled 2x4 plate over the matching holes.
9) Using 1/2"x 6-1/2" machine bolts, bolt everything together.
10) Layout, cut and install the 2x4 gable rake fill studs.
11) Stand back, admire your hard work and drink a few ice cold beers.

Seriously, this is NOT crazy and the structural integrity of the wall has not been compromised.

 

[GMCGarage]

Okay Bri, here's some 'out of the box thinking' for you to ponder.

1) Remove all the 2x4 rake fill studs.
2) Order a 40' (Standard length) piece of 4x4x3/8"L (angle iron) (40' weighs 392#)
3) Layout and drill 1/2" holes 16"o/c thru one web (locate holes to hit the center of the stud bays of the wall)
4) Clamp a 2x4 plate over the holes and drill through the existing holes (this will become your new bottom plate for the gable fill rake studs)
5) Place the angle on top of the wall plates with the vertical flange butting the bottom chord of the gable end truss.
6) Align the wall to plumb.
7) Using the holes as a guide, drill 1/2" holes through the top plates.
8) Place the drilled 2x4 plate over the matching holes.
9) Using 1/2"x 6-1/2" machine bolts, bolt everything together.
10) Layout, cut and install the 2x4 gable rake fill studs.
11) Stand back, admire your hard work and drink a few ice cold beers.

Seriously, this is NOT crazy and the structural integrity of the wall has not been compromised.

Would you not expect the angle to deflect with the wall still?

 

[The Tool Tyrant]

No. There is no horizontal force pushing on the plates. Once it's straight and plumb, it just needs help maintaining that position. Being as the exterior walls at each end are maintaining the plumb position at that point for the problem wall, it probably only needs help with the center third of its length.

 

[GMCGarage]

No. There is no horizontal force pushing on the plates. Once it's straight and plumb, it just needs help maintaining that position. Being as the exterior walls at each end are maintaining the plumb position at that point for the problem wall, it probably only needs help with the center third of its length.

Wouldnt wind load be a horizontal force pushing on it? Essentially you are adding a beam to span left to right, with tributary area of half the wall above it and half the wall below it. Perhaps a sketch would help us understand.

 

[The Tool Tyrant]

Quick sketch... Option of upgrading to 1/2" vs. 3/8". 1/2" would be 512 lbs.

 

[GMCGarage]

Quick sketch... Option of upgrading to 1/2" vs. 3/8". 1/2" would be 512 lbs.

I think you are still asking that angle to span between the walls. There is no way thats transferring full bending moment vertically from the 2x6 to the 2x4.

 

[The Tool Tyrant]

I think you are still asking that angle to span between the walls. There is no way thats transferring full bending moment vertically from the 2x6 to the 2x4.

That is correct, but as long as the wall is held in line end to end it really is a moot point...ie, in order for the center of the wall to be out of plumb, the dbl. top plates would need to have a bow in them.
Being as both ends of the wall are held plumb by the two exterior perpendicular walls, the only way that the problem wall can have a vertical bow is if the plates are bowed.

 

[tapered-pin]

in order for the center of the wall to be out of plumb, the dbl. top plates would need to have a bow in them.
Being as both ends of the wall are held plumb by the two exterior perpendicular walls, the only way that the problem wall can have a vertical bow is if the plates are bowed.

not necessarily.. the trusses could be eccentrically loading the end gable wall and the weakest point along that wall is where that eccentric loading is apparent.

 

[The Tool Tyrant]

not necessarily.. the trusses could be eccentrically loading the end gable wall and the weakest point along that wall is where that eccentric loading is apparent.

You're missing the point...irregardless of the source causing the bow, if the top plates are straight, and both ends of the wall are plumb, then the wall would have no bow, either vertically or horizontally as it would be an impossibility.

Perhaps you misunderstood me...I was not inferring that the top plates were bowed CAUSING the wall to have both a horizontal and vertical bow (out of plumb)

 

[tapered-pin]

perhaps you misunderstood me...I was not inferring that the top plates were bowed CAUSING the wall to have both a horizontal and vertical bow (out of plumb)

yes, I misunderstood you.

 

[johnyg]

what caused this in the first place ???

 

[The Tool Tyrant]

what caused this in the first place ???

There is nothing tying the wall at the top plate line of the lower wall, so it acts as a horizontal 'hinge' at that point. If the trusses were standard trusses instead of scissor, the 'cat walks' installed perpendicular to the bottom chords and run to and tying off the 'problem' wall, it would have been fine OR if the framers would have balloon framed the wall, it too would have been fine.

 

[RocketScott]

what caused this in the first place ???

Too much mental ************ on the part of internet engineers

I posted the solution on page 2

 

[mrobins297aaa]

If the top of the truss is good all those flat blocks at the top of the wall are probably pushing the gable out. When you ratchet it back in do you have a bulge in the gable truss at that spot?

I'd start by removing anything in the trusses that connects the gable end to the rest of the trusses then see where it sits.

really that's the solution?

 

[lakeroadster]

I’m not sure, but a good point. With what this frame crew has done.... or not done I wouldn’t be surprised if they didn’t stagger the plywood. They already installed the tyvek wrap and brick ties so I can’t really check.

Brick ties... if the exterior is going to have brick veneer the issue you're having will eventually lead to cracked mortar joints.

It's just a bad design and the wall strength isn't adequate.

You talk about the one end of the building... what about the other end? Both ends need re-engineered and re-worked.

 

[GMCGarage]

Brick ties... if the exterior is going to have brick veneer the issue you're having will eventually lead to cracked mortar joints.

It's just a bad design and the wall strength isn't adequate.

You talk about the one end of the building... what about the other end? Both ends need re-engineered and re-worked.

Lakeroadster is right, short of getting the studs to be full height again, you are forcing that wall to span horizontally from side wall to side wall, and expecting a double 2x6 top plate to take the load.

The gable end truss cannot take that lateral load, nor can the 2x6 top plate.

 

[johnyg]

i am glad ive never been in this guys situation ,but the input from the forum shows allot of compassion. i cant imagine being that close to my dream and have this **** happen. we need an end to this ordeal.