The Frisco Kid
Well-known member
I might get flamed to death on this... But here goes. Should current product manufacturers all switch to metric? Your thoughts?
Should manufacturers standardize?
- Thread starter The Frisco Kid
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mayday0017
Well-known member
It is going more and more that way... I would guess about 75-80% of items made are metric and more and more are headed that way every day.
there is a lot of standardization that should happen. we are too far into the industrialized world for there to be anything new as far as sizes or fitting types coming out that would require a whole new tool to be produced, and it is about time to start having the world downsize. it would probably take 200 years of standardization to get rid of all the non standard equipment and fasteners though, so don't hold your breath on this one
no, they should standardize to sae and we could sell of the metric **** for scrap.
metric may be no worse but it sure as hell isn't vastly superior in anyway shape or form. if anything, to be prepared for every size you may need there seems to be more sizes needed.
metric may be no worse but it sure as hell isn't vastly superior in anyway shape or form. if anything, to be prepared for every size you may need there seems to be more sizes needed.
OP
The Frisco Kid
Well-known member
I know that there is no way we would be able to flip the switch and toss our SAE tools overnight... Two sets of each length of wrench, two sets of sockets in each ratchet size and depth. It would take some serious time to weed out, but I think the turnaround would be shorter than 200 years, more like 25-50 for most users. That's our lifetime (most of us... haha!)
Buckgnarly
Well-known member
Of course we should switch to metric! The whole rest of the world uses it, and it is a MUCH easier system based on logic, but....
http://www.poetv.com/video.php?vid=115149
http://www.poetv.com/video.php?vid=115149
HellaFab
Well-known member
yes.
and we should get rid of flat bit screws and screw drivers completely. such a pain in the ***.
Huge fan of torx and robertson bits over anything with a flat.
and we should get rid of flat bit screws and screw drivers completely. such a pain in the ***.
Huge fan of torx and robertson bits over anything with a flat.
Quijote
Well-known member
Metric all the way. But it is far too late. If we didn't pull the trigger a few decades ago, it's not going to happen now.
JJThrasher
Well-known member
Go metric. Hell working on cars I barely use any sae anymore.
Sent from my SCH-I535 using Tapatalk 2
Sent from my SCH-I535 using Tapatalk 2
Merely relabel SAE as 1/32, 2/32, 3/32, etc. and you've got something as simple as metric, at least in terms of hand tools (just kidding).
Heck, I'd be happy just to see the car companies standardize on 3 or so wheel bolt patterns.
For that matter, think about how you could reimagine car mechanical design as a series of standardized modules.
...or standardizing battery hook ups for cordless tools.
or, or, or...
Truth be told, I don't think you'll ever see simplification with fasteners. The head size of a bolt is the least of your problems, they'll always invent new methods for clamping, attaching a tool, etc. We're lucky they don't completely glue together cars.
Heck, I'd be happy just to see the car companies standardize on 3 or so wheel bolt patterns.
For that matter, think about how you could reimagine car mechanical design as a series of standardized modules.
...or standardizing battery hook ups for cordless tools.
or, or, or...
Truth be told, I don't think you'll ever see simplification with fasteners. The head size of a bolt is the least of your problems, they'll always invent new methods for clamping, attaching a tool, etc. We're lucky they don't completely glue together cars.
Alchymist
Well-known member
I kind of liked the "interim" time frame- when a bolt might have metric threads but an SAE head on it. More of a challenge to it.
Milton Shaw
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Metric is never going to happen in the US as long as we think 36-24-36 sounds a lot better than 91-60.5-91.
Cryptic1911
Well-known member
Alchymist
Well-known member
You left out rods, chains, furlongs for length, and scruples and troy measurements for weights, as well as pints, quarts and gallons, bushels and pecks, hogsheads for volume. What were you thinking?
Nearly 200 countries in the world... 190 plus use the metric system, 3 use the dinosaur system.
It's not easy for an Englishman to praise a Frenchman
But the metric system has justsuch a simple and elegant logic about it, that even your brothers and sisters that live in the
centre of the Universe with you are gradually accepting it.
neophyte
Well-known member
Yeah, and the USA should adopt French Revolutionary Decimal Time.
http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Decimal_time#France
http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Decimal_time#France
LAROKE
Banned
Standards are great 'cause . . . there's so many to choose from!
Dave455
Well-known member
It wouldn't be a bad idea, but to make it really viable you'd have to rebuild every existing bit of equipment with the metric fasteners! Personally, I reckon the USA adopting metric is the most insane idea imaginable! How do I know, I've been here before!
The U.K. was the first country to adopt standardised screw threads. They were called Whitworth (British Standard Whitworth or BSW to be precise!) The sizes evolved pretty naturally, so later on when finer threads were required for steel, British Standard Fine came along too! The system worked well, and you would only ever need about 5 sizes of wrench for any bolt on a vehicle!
America developed it's own standards too, but completely independently. Surprisingly, or perhaps not as they were evolving to do the same job, they were very similar. Differing only in using a thread angle of 60 degrees, and in some of the thread pitches! Wrenches however, instead of being bigger than the thread by a fixed proportion, were rounded, usually to the nearest 1/16 of an inch. This gave a greater selection of wrenches so you might now need 8 or so for the same bolt size range as the Whitworth!
After the war, it was thought that it would be a good idea if all the 'allies' used the same screw threads. The result was 'Unified' which in theory uses the best features of both the systems, but in practice is almost identical to the old American National Coarse and American National Fine. Although most folks in the U.S. refer to the bolt sizes as SAE, the threads are actually Unified!
This system was adopted by almost every industry in the U.S. and U.K. which was sensible and we are still enjoying the benefits although... every mechanic in the U.K. now needs 2 sets of wrenches!
So far so good, but in the 1980's, some numpty thought metric would be a good idea! It is, in some respects, but not in others! If you divide an inch in 2, you get 2 halves. Divide again you get 4 quarters and so on. Your first choice for a bolt smaller than an inch is a half inch, then quarter, half, three quarter and so on. There is no such natural division in metric. Half of 10mm is 5 mm, but then what? Do you adopt halves, go up in 2mm steps or what?
There are more different metric systems than inch ones, each of which uses a different range of bolt sizes. European countries tried to sort this out by adopting S.I. (System Internationale) metric, but the Germans were different, as were the French, and the Swedish even used Whitworth threads with metric heads!!
The U.K. has now adopted I.S.O. Metric. I should find nuts of 7, 8, 10, 13, 17, 19mm, and so on, on my vehicle! This is fine, but they keep jerking around with the standard, so I might find myself needing 16 and 18 instead of 17 and 19! Also, I might work on a Japanese vehicle, and they use JIS, so I might need 12 and 14 as well! In practice, I now need about 13 wrenches to cover the same range of bolt sizes that I needed about 5 Whitworth ones for!
But it doen't end there, because I still need all my SAE wrenches, and my Whitworth ones AS WELL, quite often on the same day, and sometimes even on the same job! It's a bleedin' nightmare that the USA could avoid. Unfortunately, the useless accountants who wrecked so much British industry with their 'cheaper is always better' philosophy are now trying to wreck America's industry the same way. The only reason there are metric fasteners on U.S. products is because the crappy outsourced fasteners are a few cents cheaper than inch ones! And if you have to spend hundreds of dollars on new tools they don't care!
Rant over - back to wrenching' !
The U.K. was the first country to adopt standardised screw threads. They were called Whitworth (British Standard Whitworth or BSW to be precise!) The sizes evolved pretty naturally, so later on when finer threads were required for steel, British Standard Fine came along too! The system worked well, and you would only ever need about 5 sizes of wrench for any bolt on a vehicle!
America developed it's own standards too, but completely independently. Surprisingly, or perhaps not as they were evolving to do the same job, they were very similar. Differing only in using a thread angle of 60 degrees, and in some of the thread pitches! Wrenches however, instead of being bigger than the thread by a fixed proportion, were rounded, usually to the nearest 1/16 of an inch. This gave a greater selection of wrenches so you might now need 8 or so for the same bolt size range as the Whitworth!
After the war, it was thought that it would be a good idea if all the 'allies' used the same screw threads. The result was 'Unified' which in theory uses the best features of both the systems, but in practice is almost identical to the old American National Coarse and American National Fine. Although most folks in the U.S. refer to the bolt sizes as SAE, the threads are actually Unified!
This system was adopted by almost every industry in the U.S. and U.K. which was sensible and we are still enjoying the benefits although... every mechanic in the U.K. now needs 2 sets of wrenches!
So far so good, but in the 1980's, some numpty thought metric would be a good idea! It is, in some respects, but not in others! If you divide an inch in 2, you get 2 halves. Divide again you get 4 quarters and so on. Your first choice for a bolt smaller than an inch is a half inch, then quarter, half, three quarter and so on. There is no such natural division in metric. Half of 10mm is 5 mm, but then what? Do you adopt halves, go up in 2mm steps or what?
There are more different metric systems than inch ones, each of which uses a different range of bolt sizes. European countries tried to sort this out by adopting S.I. (System Internationale) metric, but the Germans were different, as were the French, and the Swedish even used Whitworth threads with metric heads!!
The U.K. has now adopted I.S.O. Metric. I should find nuts of 7, 8, 10, 13, 17, 19mm, and so on, on my vehicle! This is fine, but they keep jerking around with the standard, so I might find myself needing 16 and 18 instead of 17 and 19! Also, I might work on a Japanese vehicle, and they use JIS, so I might need 12 and 14 as well! In practice, I now need about 13 wrenches to cover the same range of bolt sizes that I needed about 5 Whitworth ones for!
But it doen't end there, because I still need all my SAE wrenches, and my Whitworth ones AS WELL, quite often on the same day, and sometimes even on the same job! It's a bleedin' nightmare that the USA could avoid. Unfortunately, the useless accountants who wrecked so much British industry with their 'cheaper is always better' philosophy are now trying to wreck America's industry the same way. The only reason there are metric fasteners on U.S. products is because the crappy outsourced fasteners are a few cents cheaper than inch ones! And if you have to spend hundreds of dollars on new tools they don't care!
Rant over - back to wrenching' !
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That's brilliant. I wonder if I can get a wall clock that's set up like that.
This '10' thing is so arbitrary anyway. We should probably all go to the hexadecimal system so it's all powers of 2. A wrench stamped '1E' might be an odd thing, though.
Then there's the finest SAE invention of all, the 1970 and prior Chrysler lug nut.
dirtmister16
Banned
give me sae anyday. i don't want 3 systems of measurement. i have no problem with metric just want one type of fastner size to deal with. give me sae bolts and nuts, torx, no allens on a car.
Allens have there place in small set screws and industrial machines. but a car, no thank you. i like meauring shafts, motors,gears ect in standard. i also think metric is a great way to measure precisely, so just depends on the job.
as far as bolts and screws and ect, i see no reason for metric honestly at least for products made here anyway.
Allens have there place in small set screws and industrial machines. but a car, no thank you. i like meauring shafts, motors,gears ect in standard. i also think metric is a great way to measure precisely, so just depends on the job.
as far as bolts and screws and ect, i see no reason for metric honestly at least for products made here anyway.
monkeyspanners
Well-known member
A lot of refrigeration stuff is still imperial sized, some of the older stuff is whitworth, and a lot of the new stuff is metric.
Prefer the older sizes, the threads seem to stand the test of time better (or maybe the steel was better quality)
End up needing to carry metric, imperial, whitworth, square drive, torx M+F, flat, phillips, posidrive, robertson, allen, JIS phillips, combination -+ in posi and phillps for electrical terminals. Good job i like collecting tools!
Prefer the older sizes, the threads seem to stand the test of time better (or maybe the steel was better quality)
End up needing to carry metric, imperial, whitworth, square drive, torx M+F, flat, phillips, posidrive, robertson, allen, JIS phillips, combination -+ in posi and phillps for electrical terminals. Good job i like collecting tools!
ChevyEFI
Well-known member
Metric is simpler in conversion of units?
Base 8 math would be simpler than base 10 too.
Base 8 math would be simpler than base 10 too.
oldldh
Well-known member
Furlongs per deciliter is difficult enough...not to mention Furlongs per Fortnight...
Damn, how did things get so out of whack...
Damn, how did things get so out of whack...
N.I.
Well-known member
There is something very elegant about the Whitworth system.
So I think it would be a fair compromise for everyone just to revert back to Whitworth fasteners. And, considering most of Europe use BSP we are most of the way there.
So I think it would be a fair compromise for everyone just to revert back to Whitworth fasteners. And, considering most of Europe use BSP we are most of the way there.
cosmik binturong
Well-known member
teh US of A are already "metric": you already use SI to weight your psychoactive street powdery stuff...
crewchief888
Well-known member
i'd would just be nice if they quit changing wheel bolt patterns and sizes every couple years
FWIW
i dont have any issues telling the difference between metric & std hardware.
maybe it's a trained eye, machinist backround, or just pulling wrenches "professionally" for 30 years....
diesel research
Well-known member
fractions keep the USA ahead, by weeding out the weaklings who struggle with 3rd grade math. Cant handle fractions, move out of the way, and let the real men take care of it.
nothing against metric, it's fine. SAE fractions are just an easy way to weed out simple minded people who probably dont have business using wrenches or designing things or operating machine tools. Those who can pass the simple fraction test can carry on using which ever unit or drive style is appropriate for the task.
nothing against metric, it's fine. SAE fractions are just an easy way to weed out simple minded people who probably dont have business using wrenches or designing things or operating machine tools. Those who can pass the simple fraction test can carry on using which ever unit or drive style is appropriate for the task.
Pardon my ignorance, but what is that?
As for Metric vs SAE, I think we in Canada have you all beat.
I recieved my International Tool box yesterday, and it was not the "Fabrique au Canada - Made in Canada" sticker that told me it was truely made in Canada ...
It was the fact the caster bolts were SAE and needed a 3/8" socket to install.
And ...
The bolts for the handle were Metric and needed a 10mm socket to install.
Just kidding around of course, well except for the fact the tool box did come with both SAE and Metric.
Dimitri
celticbhoy
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Of course they should all be Metric. It's already going that way anyway. But if anyone should learn to follow the rules, it's Chrysler.... I don't know why, but it seems like they're just thrown together with whatever nuts and bolts are found lying on the floor when they're assembled. Apparently they think it's some sort of sick joke mixing sae and metric of all shapes and sizes on the vehicle!!
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diesel research
Well-known member
I'll believe that, when they start drilling for oil with a completely metric drill string.
celticbhoy
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I should have said i'm really only talking about automotives. Sorry for the miscommunication. I don't know a lick about offshore drilling or anything like that.
diesel research
Well-known member
i know. im just saying that will be the last front, even after airplanes and carpenters go metric.
Driver's side used left-hand thread lug nuts, passenger side used right-hand thread lug nuts. Folks in the UK might have trouble telling which side is which.
Chrysler wasn't the only manufacturer to do that, but they did it for a lot longer than everyone else did.
Buckgnarly
Well-known member
I have always wondered about that and Europe...do carpenters buy wood sized differently?