Show us your pb swiss tools!

[rust in the eye]

Saw this display in a stairwell at a Mt. Titlis (Lucerne) lift station.
Thought you guys might enjoy it:

 

[KnurledNut]

Finally. Someone who actually beats on a PB Swiss tool.

The "heavy duty" set is towards the top of list to buy.

In the USA PB Swiss is priced as a premium tool.
Why destroy a good screwdriver when there are so many cheap ones available?

 

[Nobody-named-Olli]

It is not destroyed, it got a scar. The heavy duty/ demo screwdrivers are meant to do the heavy lifting - that’s what I buy them for. (Once I got the ’project workshop’ makeover done, I re-gain access to a Wera demolition driver that has been put through its paces and is retired by now - the tip is almost round by now - I’ll show a pic then.)

The thing with premium tools is, they are safe - and that is what counts. Tip will not fragment/burst, handle will not fragment/burst and the blade goes all the way through. Perfect tool for the job.

And experience: I did this with readily and cheaply available ‘electrician’s chisels’ before, the damage to such a chisel from this type of use is far worse and requires a lot more grinding/ re-shaping - which then ‘costs more’ than the chisel (in time) so the chisel is retired/recycled much faster.

This PB driver will work well for many more years to come and then be retired. PB will NEVER see this driver as a warranty claim or whatsoever.

Kind regards,
Olli

 

[KnurledNut]

Tip will not fragment

From what I see in the pictures it kinda did.
I do own PB screwdrivers and to me the parallel grind is a weaker design in general for abuse. Plus the step in the tip can be a hinderance when wedging/prying.
Thanks for sharing your experience and posting pictures.

 

[snowblindb]

I have the black ”heavy duty” pb swiss flathead screwdriver and the tip got twisted while I opened two paint cans! I couldn’t belelieve my eyes and not even the cheapest screwdrivers are ever got their tips twisted while opening a can. I can’t recommend them to prying. I think that the heavy duty screwdrivers should have the same tip profile that is in their VDE screwdrivers (full wedge/wedgelike?).

 

[knock knock]

New to me $8 at an estate sale.Feel solid.

 

[KnurledNut]

New to me $8 at an estate sale.Feel solid.

Incredible score!!!

 

[Nobody-named-Olli]

@KnurledNut

As promised in #283, I was able to access the Wera demolition driver I retired. Although it doesn’t fit this topic, I thought it was still useful to follow up with it here.

It’s a 1.6 x 10 shown along a newer, lesser used, 1.6 x 9.








Kind regards,
Olli

 

[Steve_P]

New to me $8 at an estate sale.Feel solid.

Are you in the US? I can't imagine finding any PB at any sale in my area unless I went to a million of them.

 

[knock knock]

Yeah I don’t see many around here

 

[Jaywalk3r]

My humble collection. I find it all to be excellent quality, but I particularly like the knurled round keys.

Interestingly, the hex end of the L-keys are machined differently than the hex bits, with turned chamfering and faceted chamfering, respectively.

 

[KnurledNut]

Came across this randomly and am plugging it just for the cool factor.
Not too many companies offer the smallest torx sizes in 1/4 hex.

 

[YesIHaveAHammer]

Any love for the PB 1255 MR ratcheting T-handle?

I've been looking for this sort of thing for a while, after being tempted by the Wera 416 RA but not really being convinced about it based on a few comments and reviews.

• Much longer than the Wera - shaft 80mm vs. 44mm, overall 124mm vs. 99mm. Wera sell theirs in sets with 89mm bits, but this seems more suited for 50/25mm. Add a 1/4" square adapter for sockets and it gets even longer.
• Nicer handle shape IMO and ratchet switch isn't in your palm
• No locking bit holder (magnet is very strong according to reviews), this does allow greater obstacle clearance.
• SwissGrip handles are comfy, don't like getting dirty (read about that on here)

PB 1255 MR

www.pbswisstools.com

 

[Dave455]

Any love for the PB 1255 MR ratcheting T-handle?

I've been looking for this sort of thing for a while, after being tempted by the Wera 416 RA but not really being convinced about it based on a few comments and reviews.

• Much longer than the Wera - shaft 80mm vs. 44mm, overall 124mm vs. 99mm. Wera sell theirs in sets with 89mm bits, but this seems more suited for 50/25mm. Add a 1/4" square adapter for sockets and it gets even longer.
• Nicer handle shape IMO and ratchet switch isn't in your palm
• No locking bit holder (magnet is very strong according to reviews), this does allow greater obstacle clearance.
• SwissGrip handles are comfy, don't like getting dirty (read about that on here)

PB 1255 MR

www.pbswisstools.com

Generally speaking, any PB Swiss tool is a grade above any Wera.

I have some of each though (especially bits) as sometimes the job doesn’t warrant the PB Swiss.

I have never tried that Wera bit driver in question, but I do have the PB 225 ratcheting bit driver.


The handle is probably the most ergonomic of any tool I own. It’s a pleasure to hold and use.

No, the bit holder doesn’t lock. Yes, the magnet is very strong. The PB have probably the strongest magnets of any bit drivers I own. But… PB bits fit particularly well also, so it’s still possible to get them wedged in a fastener. There is a case for a locking bit holder.

Yes, the handles don’t like dirt, or oil, or grease, or dust. Worst still a combination of these. For this reason, I tend to reserve mine for clean work.

Snap On bit drivers, particularly with the hard handles, are preferable for automotive work for this reason. The PB is better in dirty conditions than most of the Wera though.

I wish PB would make one of these with a CAB handle.

The outstanding feature of this tool, and others that share this feature, is the ratcheting mechanism. Buttery smooth, very strong, easily selectable but not prone to accidental selection.

I wouldn’t hesitate to choose any tool that uses this ratchet. PB offer them as options on their interchangeable shank drivers, as well as on their 1/4 inch bit drivers with conventional handles.

 

[YesIHaveAHammer]

No, the bit holder doesn’t lock. Yes, the magnet is very strong. The PB have probably the strongest magnets of any bit drivers I own. But… PB bits fit particularly well also, so it’s still possible to get them wedged in a fastener. There is a case for a locking bit holder.

I'm not too worried about this, but it appears they could design a locking holder into it if they wanted. We have locking impact bit holders now (e.g. DeWalt DT7522-QZ) that are the same size as the age-old magnet style.

Yes, the handles don’t like dirt, or oil, or grease, or dust. Worst still a combination of these. For this reason, I tend to reserve mine for clean work.

Snap On bit drivers, particularly with the hard handles, are preferable for automotive work for this reason. The PB is better in dirty conditions than most of the Wera though.

Yeah with this and a price there's a risk this becomes a bit of a toolbox queen. I don't want getting a tool dirty to even cross my mind when I want to use it. From what I'd read I thought they were worse than Wera, but if they're actually same or better then that's good enough for me.

Much longer than the Wera - shaft 80mm vs. 44mm, overall 124mm vs. 99mm. Wera sell theirs in sets with 89mm bits, but this seems more suited for 50/25mm. Add a 1/4" square adapter for sockets and it gets even longer.

Found this. I guess it's all about the tradeoffs of having the ratcheting mechanism inside the handle or not.

 

[YesIHaveAHammer]

I wouldn’t hesitate to choose any tool that uses this ratchet.

I read some comments about high backdrag, and a low tooth count - 24, for a 15 degree return angle. Surprising given the size of the ratchet bulb. Any thoughts on that?

The Wera on the other hand has 80 teeth for a 4.5 degree return angle (not that that much is really necessary), inside a much smaller space in the handle.

 

[Dave455]

I'm not too worried about this, but it appears they could design a locking holder into it if they wanted. We have locking impact bit holders now (e.g. DeWalt DT7522-QZ) that are the same size as the age-old magnet style.

Ultimately, the PB Swiss is designed for C6 bit’s - i.e. for hand use.

They produce C6 bits for hand tools, E6 bits for power tools and In PB Swiss world you don’t mix the two.

If you need the longer shank then they make interchangeable shank drivers, which might be more appropriate.

The Wera driver is designed to hold E6 power bits, so the bit holder locks as standard.

Yeah with this and a price there's a risk this becomes a bit of a toolbox queen. I don't want getting a tool dirty to even cross my mind when I want to use it. From what I'd read I thought they were worse than Wera, but if they're actually same or better then that's good enough for me.

It’s a risk with any PB Swiss tool. I have PB Swiss hex keys and CAB handled drivers in my primary tool box and I use them on everything appropriate without any concerns.

Having said that, these are metal or CAB tools and they will take it. I don’t think any of the soft grip tools would take it well, so I do reserve mine for cleanish tasks.

I think the Swissgrip are better than the regular Wera in this regard. I have some Wera I only use for woodworking / property maintenance. Love the blades but the handles are awful.

The soft inserts get dirty and will not clean. I’m not a ”tool polisher” but you need to be able to wipe off handles or they just pick up more and more crud till they get damaged.

Having said that, this particular Wera handle has smaller soft inserts so may be a slight improvement.

I read some comments about high backdrag, and a low tooth count - 24, for a 15 degree return angle. Surprising given the size of the ratchet bulb. Any thoughts on that?

The Wera on the other hand has 80 teeth for a 4.5 degree return angle (not that that much is really necessary), inside a much smaller space in the handle.

There will be loads of haters out there who will complain about PB Swiss. They will complain about ratchet toothcount, about engagement angle etc etc. I’m betting that most have never used one.

I can tell you that these PB Swiss ratchet’s are probably the nicest I have ever used. Beautifully smooth and superbly designed. They have an action like winding a Swiss watch and I don’t think any mechanism on a tool gives me more enjoyment to use.

I have one or two…

 

[Dave455]

PB 256 ratcheting handle with 225 series blades.

These tools are superb if you find yourself running out of steam with 1/4 inch hex bits.

Here shown with a PZ3 bit inserted, and a large slotted bit below.

These bits are beautifully forged and the balance of the whole tool is superb.

The bigger slotted bits feel more like precision chisels when you first pick them up. They are probably as tough!

 

[YesIHaveAHammer]

Thanks. I was just typing a reply to myself with further thoughts when you posted, so now revised!

I'm just doing my diligence like I do especially on any tool that is much loved and attractive - is it actually useful for me, would something else suit better, what critiques are there of it and are they valid and relevant etc. Sometimes that drives me away from something, other times it satisfies the criteria, other times it doesn't but I get it anyway just because I like it!

There will be loads of haters out there who will complain about PB Swiss. They will complain about ratchet toothcount, about engagement angle etc etc. I’m betting that most have never used one.

I can tell you that these PB Swiss ratchet’s are probably the nicest I have ever used. Beautifully smooth and superbly designed. They have an action like winding a Swiss watch and I don’t think any mechanism on a tool gives me more enjoyment to use.

Good to hear. Your opinion carries much weight with me.

Before you posted, I was in the middle of typing some thoughts on the tooth count matter. It appears there would be a trade-off against strength, and that the optimal answer isn't the same for a T-handle as it is for conventional screwdrivers given how much torque a hand can apply using each and the likely different scenarios they'd be used in.

I did subject myself to Project Farm's (yes, I know) ratcheting screwdriver group test. The PB came up top or near-top on everything except backdrag - where it was near-last. Many remarks on this aspect appear to come from users doing delicate work using the screwdrivers, so not as relevant for T-handles. In the twist destruction test at the end (19:35, not included in the table), the ratchet spun inside the handle rather than breaking, however this was at a low 26Nm compared to competitors (e.g. Wera 27 RA's 60T ratchet broke at 68Nm). However it turns out that's barely of any relevance as the strongest PZ bit tip (PB the winner) broke at 16Nm, and by my own testing with a raw bar 1/4" sliding tee handle and a torque wrench I can only apply about 10Nm by hand. So you'd have to be super strong and use a 1/4" drive adapter with a socket to get anywhere near the limit of the driver.

 

[IndyGarage]

I'm really surprised at the photos on here of brand new looking PB swiss screwdrivers with soft handles.

I love the screwdrivers but mine will never again look as good as the ones shown in this thread and haven't from literally the first day in my shop. There is no way to keep those handles clean, unless you are building some kind of spacecraft or something in a clean room.

Mine get beat on and twisted and covered with grease and oil. I think they work great. The only thing I would like better is a Wera shape screwdriver with that grippy PB Swiss handle material. Maybe someone will tell me they make such a thing.

 

[Dave455]

I'm really surprised at the photos on here of brand new looking PB swiss screwdrivers with soft handles.

I love the screwdrivers but mine will never again look as good as the ones shown in this thread and haven't from literally the first day in my shop. There is no way to keep those handles clean, unless you are building some kind of spacecraft or something in a clean room.

Mine get beat on and twisted and covered with grease and oil. I think they work great. The only thing I would like better is a Wera shape screwdriver with that grippy PB Swiss handle material. Maybe someone will tell me they make such a thing.

I do reserve my soft handles for clean work.

In my case that was primarily clean assembly work. Clean parts, and assembled wearing thin gloves.

So no, not spacecraft work, but not vastly different conditions.

The 226 saw hardly any use as I stopped doing that work shortly after acquiring it.

All the others have been used, though I must admit the 8510 handles got swapped for new ones shortly before I left, so not heavily used. No good getting older if you don’t get artful!

I have CAB handles for dirtier conditions, and Snap On hard handles for greasy / oily / automotive.

Although I love PB Swiss generally, the soft handles are not ideal for a lot of tasks.

 

[Dave455]

Good to hear. Your opinion carries much weight with me.

I feel honoured!

Most of the work I was doing with those ratcheting drivers was assembling components with relatively small (M4 / M5) csk screws or button head screws.

Despite the relatively small sizes I never had a problem with backdrag, but I found I was able to use PB drivers slightly differently from others.

With other tools you often need to position the screw with your left hand, and tighten it using the driver in your right. Excessive backdrag is a nightmare.

With PB ratcheting drivers I’d usually locate the screw on the driver, and allow it to be held magnetically. I could then position the driver with my right hand, freeing my left to guide it in, and hold the shaft for a couple of twists till the screw was started, if necessary.

After that, with freshly tapped holes in steel, there was really no issue.

 

[pizza]

The outstanding feature of this tool, and others that share this feature, is the ratcheting mechanism. Buttery smooth, very strong, easily selectable but not prone to accidental selection.

interesting. i'm a total pb fanboy and do not find their ratcheting mechanisms to be their strong suit. not that it's bad, but it's probably my least favorite aspect. however, i've been using it exclusively for so long now (specifically a couple of insider 3s (6510 R-30)) that i can't say with complete confidence that another is strictly better in every respect. my main complaint of the pb mechanism is that it does not have industry-leading (or trailing?) backdrag which is frankly pretty annoying when you need low backdrag, but everything else about the mechanism is fine.

however, i am inclined to hazard that rolgear has the best mechanism. i have one but have used it so little because i hate everything about their screwdrivers except the mechanism, lol.

i would also guess that snap on's is better than pb's. i remember thinking that the backdrag was considerably lower than pb's, but i keep that screwdriver at my summer place and haven't used it in a while.

 

[YesIHaveAHammer]

I went looking for some photos to get an idea of what people mean by dirty. This guy is a locksmith and here's the state of his SwissGrip handle after a few months. Going by his video thumbnails only it seems a pretty clean job.

 

[IndyGarage]

I went looking for some photos to get an idea of what people mean by dirty. This guy is a locksmith and here's the state of his SwissGrip handle after a few months. Going by his video thumbnails only it seems a pretty clean job.

Mine get pretty bad when I use them a lot. I clean them so they don't look like that, but you can never get all that dirt off of them. Even if you get them clean, you still have a haze of dirt on them.

I do love the grip of that handle, however I still like the Wera shape better than PB Swiss. I find Felo Ergonics to be a pretty good compromise between the two and they are much cheaper as well. Any of those three brands work for me.

 

[Dave455]

interesting. i'm a total pb fanboy and do not find their ratcheting mechanisms to be their strong suit. not that it's bad, but it's probably my least favorite aspect. however, i've been using it exclusively for so long now (specifically a couple of insider 3s (6510 R-30)) that i can't say with complete confidence that another is strictly better in every respect. my main complaint of the pb mechanism is that it does not have industry-leading (or trailing?) backdrag which is frankly pretty annoying when you need low backdrag, but everything else about the mechanism is fine.

however, i am inclined to hazard that rolgear has the best mechanism. i have one but have used it so little because i hate everything about their screwdrivers except the mechanism, lol.

i would also guess that snap on's is better than pb's. i remember thinking that the backdrag was considerably lower than pb's, but i keep that screwdriver at my summer place and haven't used it in a while.

I’m something of a PB fan myself, but I would be the first to admit they are not suited to every environment.

I’ve used their “Twister” drivers a fair bit (and much prefer the handles) and I use the non ratcheting drivers as my “go to”, but backdrag or not, I do love the feel of the ratcheting mechanism.


For automotive use I much prefer the Snap On. The handles are durable and easy to wipe clean, and the ratcheting mechanism is light.


The Facom are not bad either. Nice feel to the ratchet, and a wipeable handle!

 

[cbracer]

I will concur the swissgrip handles are a pain to clean. So much I don't like to grab them with dirty hands. There is no one solvent or cleaner to works well. A little passion is required to keep them clean. My older craftsman handles I could easily wipe off. I bought some of the original PB handles but the diameter is sized rather small. The multi-craft handles are good and I've been happy with those although they are harder to find in the US than the swissgrip or original.
Quality is fine, but the PB picks I've found are easily broken so those are the only things I don't recommend. I do love their bits and have almost a full set !!

 

[AJHD]

I know this isn't PB Swiss specific, but I don't understand cleaning tools.

Sure, I wipe off my tools with a rag so they're not wet with oil or grease, but that's the extent of it. All of my soft grip Snap On screwdrivers are dirty, so are my hammers and other tools.

The only reason my PB Swiss tools are still clean is because they haven't seen any automotive or equipment use (yet).

 

[cbracer]

I always wipe down my tools before putting them back in. If you want to keep them clean, then don't buy swissgrips.

 

[YesIHaveAHammer]

Never thought it about until I read about this either, and just wipe down when necessary after the odd particularly dirty task.

As I have one set of tools for homestead, small equipment, vehicle, and home outdoor/indoor, I don't want my occasional use in dirtier contexts to permanently soil (absorbed oils, ingrained dirt etc., as picture above) tools to such an extent that I no longer really want to use them in cleaner contexts. So a choice would need to be made to keep them moderately clean (my likely choice) or to allow them to get dirty, and in both cases I get less use out of the tool.

 

[KnurledNut]

Something I have not seen mentioned on GJ all these years with regards to PB bit holders is the shallow retention depth. The magnets are strong and hex tolerances tight, but still something that could be a concern, especially if using a variety of bit brands and designs. Also FOD considerations.

 

[Qualitytools]

I went looking for some photos to get an idea of what people mean by dirty. This guy is a locksmith and here's the state of his SwissGrip handle after a few months. Going by his video thumbnails only it seems a pretty clean job.

I got as far as 5 minutes into it and stopped. Who puts a screwdriver with the blade down in the pocket.

 

[Phang]

I guess you can tell that I don't grab them when my hands are greasy

besides the ratcheting action feels like winding a swiss watch, the "clicks" from switching direction are satisfying too, felt positive and solid like a high quality rotary switch

 

[YesIHaveAHammer]

Looking at bit holding screwdrivers, what would you go for? I have one of all common bits in 89mm, and multiples of everything else in 25mm. Don't really want to go buying more in 50mm, although I do have impact ones.

8451 short (32mm shaft, 135mm overall) - short, but a little longer than my Wera 816 R and with shallow insertion depth, so perhaps just long enough to be practical with 25mm bits. Suits 89mm bits for length, although the short insertion depth and only a magnetic hold might not be ideal for that, and magnetism won't reach the tip to hold the screw. This is the one that caught my eye at first.

8451 long (100mm shaft, 205mm overall) - for 25mm bits only. Not too similar to things I have already. Strongest bit magnet available on a long driver without going for bulkier mechanical locking holders. Probably my current leading contender.

8215 handle & 215.M bit holder blade (60mm or 100mm shaft) - wildcard option, no real interest in the rest of the system but leaves the option open. Not much more money to get both shaft lengths, or say a PZ2.


Additionally looking at T-handle bit holders, for smallish quantities of tight things like wood self tappers that tire my hand out with a screwdriver but don't warrant getting a power tool out, or where sensitivity feeling is needed towards the end. 1254 (30mm or 100mm shaft), or 1255 MR ratcheting (80mm shaft). I wonder if non-ratcheting would be a pain to use especially being asymmetric. I've used 1/4" square ones with sockets before and you have to go in 180deg hand rotations, and reposition on the screw head if you want to get the handle in a better orientation when it gets tight. I don't mind symmetric P handle hex/torx drivers for bike work, but little torque needed except for final tightening and initial loosening.

 

[moemc]

I’m something of a PB fan myself, but I would be the first to admit they are not suited to every environment.

I’ve used their “Twister” drivers a fair bit (and much prefer the handles) and I use the non ratcheting drivers as my “go to”, but backdrag or not, I do love the feel of the ratcheting mechanism.


For automotive use I much prefer the Snap On. The handles are durable and easy to wipe clean, and the ratcheting mechanism is light.


The Facom are not bad either. Nice feel to the ratchet, and a wipeable handle!

I haven’t seen that 6510 A before. Can’t find them now either. Discontinued model?

 

[Nobody-named-Olli]

8510.R-30 is my choice with 50mm bits. The only non-ratcheting I have is the stubby (8452.10-10).

If I were to get another non-ratcheting it would be the 8451.10-30.

I would not get a non-ratcheting T-Handle.


Kind regards,
Olli

 

[Phang]

striking tools

 

[Dave455]

I haven’t seen that 6510 A before. Can’t find them now either. Discontinued model?

It looks like it might be, which would be a shame, as it’s one of their better tools.

It‘s one of the few “Multicraft” bit driver’s, and that’s probably the best handle for mechanics use.

The balance and heft of the tool is lovely, as is the sprag clutch ratchet. I don’t know why they have discontinued these, other than the move to the more conventional ratchet.

I don’t mind the conventional ratchet, in fact it’s one of their best out there. As Phang says above, it feels like winding a Swiss watch, but they are only available on soft Swissgrip or hollow handles, and neither are really suited to mechanical work.

I have a couple of Swissgrip drivers, and I have to reserve them for absolutely clean tasks.

 

[moemc]

It looks like it might be, which would be a shame, as it’s one of their better tools.

It‘s one of the few “Multicraft” bit driver’s, and that’s probably the best handle for mechanics use.

The balance and heft of the tool is lovely, as is the sprag clutch ratchet. I don’t know why they have discontinued these, other than the move to the more conventional ratchet.

I don’t mind the conventional ratchet, in fact it’s one of their best out there. As Phang says above, it feels like winding a Swiss watch, but they are only available on soft Swissgrip or hollow handles, and neither are really suited to mechanical work.

I have a couple of Swissgrip drivers, and I have to reserve them for absolutely clean tasks.

I see a lot of appeal in it! I also really like how its ratcheting mechanism does not exceed the traditional silhouette.

 

[Dave455]

I see a lot of appeal in it! I also really like how its ratcheting mechanism does not exceed the traditional silhouette.

I can only agree.

They are a relatively big tool.

The handle size is comparable to a PH3 / PZ3, and considerably bigger than, for example, the “insider” bit drivers.

I don’t consider that a bad thing, as the “insiders” are very compact, although that also suits me. The short one shown is the ultimate pocket screwdriver I think.


About the only complaint I have heard is that you can’t hear when the mechanism is “ratcheting”, so if you were turning a very small screw and the backdrag was turning the screw on the reverse stroke, you wouldn’t know.

In practice, the backdrag is very light (much more so than the conventional ratchets) and I have assembled many components with multiple M4 screws without problems.

The former U.K. importer also told me that he’d had a report of one slipping (on the forward stroke), but the tool was never returned and he never got to the bottom of it. My feeling was that it might have been feasible, but perhaps on a new tool.

I’ve never had an issue with mine, and a friend who also bought one, and used it very heavily, has never had issues.