Show us your VFD conversions/installations

[fnieto]

The plate roller is built very well and with ultra low hours. No regrets on the money spent to bring it up to speed. Originally built in 1997 so I can imagine the original VFD was big money. None VFD versions plate rollers sell for $13-15K and the company is still around.
The large enclosure cover was modified for new VFD access. The machine runs so sweet that it started my interest in the Lathe's system build. I have had a ton of help from a friend with both machines, have learned a bunch and feel very confident in any future troubleshooting. I might have another VFD build for the smaller Mil (step pulleys). This build would be much simpler by comparison. New labels replaced the hand writing and another status light was also added indicating perimeter wire tripping (safety cable at front and back of rolls).
This system is also 24v controls.

 

[Rigpig]

fnieto, not to derail this thread, but is that a square bezelled '83FJ40 in the background, or '80's BJ42??
Post up some pics next to the VFD's...
Cheers!

 

[fnieto]

fnieto, not to derail this thread, but is that a square bezelled '83FJ40 in the background, or '80's BJ42??
Post up some pics next to the VFD's...
Cheers!

Hi, its a 82 fj40 (daily driver). Good eye cruiser head!

 

[Techie1961]

Fnieto, that roller is incredible and great story with it as well. It's incredible how far VFDs have come in the last few years. So much cheaper and smaller and more reliable.

 

[manwithtools]

Hi, its a 82 fj40 (daily driver). Good eye cruiser head!

Great eye and that is a SWEET daily driver. My 79 is waiting on me and time....

 

[manwithtools]

Great job on that plate roller and lathe BTW. You have got some very functional equipment for an extremely reasonable price.

 

[fnieto]

Thanks guys I appreciate the nice words and the fact that you all can relate to the functionality of the upgrades. I have been purchasing machines for some years now and as a working class stiff, I really need to find good deals on equipment and preform the work on them myself as the tooling is where the real money is spent. My goal is to be as self sufficient as possible and prevent outsourcing as much as possible for quality control reasons.

The plate roller history is indeed cool, but I couldn't believe the the original machines wiring and control system for a machine made for NASA
I did reach out to the New Dimension to share the upgrades but never heard back. The quality of the overall machine is excellent but now its even better IMO.

 

[Rigpig]

Great to see more Cruiser-heads around! I've got an '84BJ42 sitting next to my "Voest" 1960's era lathe, needing a VFD. If you guys have a manufacturer preference post them up, i'd like have options at the wholesaler in a couple weeks. I need to get this thing spinning.
Cheers!

 

[fnieto]

I guess I start, first off, I'm no expert (in anything) but have learned a ton on the subject recently. I believe you want to stay with a Vector drive VFD as it uses motor feedback to adjust to real world conditions. More expensive VFD will be Vector drive and allow you to connect a laptop and preform a auto tune once you have input motor perimeters. For lathe application this is important as RPM can remain steady.
I like Hitachi myself, but many options available, just know if the less expensive VFD is Vector drive. For full benefit you might eventually need to upgrade the motor as well.
Again, I'm no expert.

 

[mtechgunman]

I've got a mitsubishi FR700 series VFD on my leblond. So far I like it.

Yesterday I got everything wired up in the main panel. My electric/mechanical brake functions!

I had to power the brake separate from the VFD. Also, I had to steal a rectifier from the original panel. Power goes to the e stop switch which has a normally open and normally closed terminals, then to the rectifier, then to the brake.

The completed 24V cycle goes to the e stop switch on the normally closed side. Therefore, when I hit the e stop, the VFD cuts power to the motor and sends power to the brake at the same time.

Other than function testing each line run individually, I haven't fully tested the brake yet because I need to set the VFD to tell the motor to coast rather than decelerate. I'm very happy with this because I'd much prefer the motor to coast. There's certain operations on the lathe where that coasting feature comes in handy as opposed to decelerating.

I'm still waiting on my e stop switch box, it should be here Monday. I'll get some pics posted of the completed install. Definitely happy to have this VFD working to it's strengths rather than working only as a phase converter.

 

[fnieto]

Looking forward to seeing your setup.

 

[mtechgunman]

Alright, I am pretty much done with this install.

Here's the electrical panel.


I cut the face out of the panel for the VFD. I plan to put some plexiglass with cutouts for the fan over it.



Here's the manual shift levers. I am making knobs for them now.




Here's the front of the lathe. Potentiometer and light switches wired in for ease of access.



Only thing left to do is figure out where to mount the e stop switch at.





Sent from my iPhone using Tapatalk

 

[fnieto]

Man, thats a nice machine. I see a DRO in your future hehe.
Perhaps mount your E-stop with your pot/light switches (bigger box) same seal tight.

 

[mtechgunman]

Thank you! This machine is in phenomenal condition. The ways look like they are brand new. Hardly ever been used.

Yep, DRO is definitely next. I have an old Kearney and Trecker rotary head mill showing up today so I'll need to figure out if I want to do a phase converter or VFD (or both)on that one. This project has been so rewarding I can't wait to do the next VFD project.


Sent from my iPhone using Tapatalk

 

[mtechgunman]

My mill showed up today!



VFD's or Phase converter?

FML




Sent from my iPhone using Tapatalk

 

[fuzzytek]

Power feeds on axis?

Sent from my SM-G935V using Tapatalk

 

[mtechgunman]

Yeah.

It's got 6 motors.

1/3 hp air pump
1/4 hp coolant pump
1/4 hp table feed
1/4 hp rotary feed
3/4 hp spindle
1/2 hp knee

I am going to try to put a higher HP spindle motor in there.

I'll either have to run a phase converter, or run spindle motor off VFD and replace the other motors with single phase motors.

After completing this lathe I am contemplating ripping everything out and starting from scratch on my own panel.

Probably best to start with a phase converter and see how it all runs before getting too far.


Sent from my iPhone using Tapatalk

 

[manwithtools]

Use one VFD for the spindle. Get another VFD large enough for all the remaining motors hp combined. A 2 hp should do it. A little rewiring (which i could help you with) with no need to replace the motors and cheaper than a phase converter.

Sent from my SM-G920V using Tapatalk

 

[manwithtools]

To explain my previous post a bit more, a single VFD can operate multiple motors if each motor has its own overload protection. Obviously all motors will operate at the speed the VFD is set for. In this case it's okay to set the speed at 60hz and let all operate at thier design speed.

Sent from my SM-G920V using Tapatalk

 

[mtechgunman]

So would you wire switches after the VFD to power each motor?


Sent from my iPhone using Tapatalk

 

[fuzzytek]

To explain my previous post a bit more, a single VFD can operate multiple motors if each motor has its own overload protection. Obviously all motors will operate at the speed the VFD is set for. In this case it's okay to set the speed at 60hz and let all operate at thier design speed.

Sent from my SM-G920V using Tapatalk

I understand what you are saying but doesn't only work if motors are the same? I know when i have to program drives i have to put in the nameplate data per motor. 2 of feed motors are identical hp but may be different in other aspects. In this case you may want coolant to be running while table is going. So at least 4 drives without touching spindle.

 

[manwithtools]

In theory yes, best if all are the same. It will work with dissimilar motors as long as total current is less than drive capacities. It's best if they are all running at the same time, but should work as I see this application. I would want to look at the motor details.

Sent from my SM-G920V using Tapatalk

 

[mtechgunman]

Seems like I am best off using a VFD sized for all the motors x2 and running it as a phase converter straight into the old wiring panel.

Or a VFD sized for all the motors wired into old panel except the spindle and a separate VFD completely


Sent from my iPhone using Tapatalk

 

[mikegt4]

I use VFDs to run both my Millrite and Weiler lathe. I use a FM50 VFD to run my Millrite, I have used it for about 5 years. The motor is a 1 hp GE pancake. The VFD is 220/1ph input, 220/3 ph output. I have it set up to utilize the original drum switch, FWD-OFF-REV. It has always worked well but it has the annoying habit of occasionally starting to turn in the direction that I select but immediately reverses direction and rotates at a very low speed, 10-20 rpm at the spindle. If I switch it back to OFF and restart it it will run fine. Sometimes it takes cycling the switch 2 or 3 times before operating correctly, other times it starts normally without any "shutter". I also use a FM50 to run my lathe and have had no problems with it.
Back when I was researching VFD' s I recall someone on a forum had the same problem and a solution was posted. IIRC it was a setting in the VFD parameters but I don't remember what it was. It is just an annoying problem that I would like to fix. Any suggestions

 

[600SL]

VFD on my Bridgeport. I will be moving this to an enclosure someday.

 

[454ragtop]

So would you wire switches after the VFD to power each motor?


Sent from my iPhone using Tapatalk

No, never put a switch between a VFD and a motor, unless it is only operated with the VFD OFF. I don't really think it is practical to try to run this whole machine off 1 VFD. IMO a small rotary phase converter of say 2 HP should be fine. I think the problem with trying to do it with a VFD is you probably don't require running all those motors all the time, so randomly turning the various motors off and on would be hard or worse on the VFD. Might want to research before adding a larger spindle motor, I seem to remember that machine as a very high precision, but lighter duty somewhat specialized mill that could be damaged by adding/using more HP. At least that's how I remember what I read, no direct experience with that machine.

 

[manwithtools]

So would you wire switches after the VFD to power each motor?

After thinking about this some more; I would use a VFD on the spindle and phase converter on the rest of the motors. You could also use a phase converter or single VFD to run the whole machine. Two much variability in the loading of a VFD due to the switching on and off of the different motors. If they were all running at the same time, it would be okay to run them with one VFD - f they each had overload protection independent of the internal VFD overload setting.

Sorry for sending you down a rabbit hole.

 

[mtechgunman]

No worries. What are the benefits to running a RPC over a VFD?

It seems to me the VFD's are cheaper now. I ran a VFD directly into the wiring panel of my lathe for several months. Only issue I had was I would trip a breaker on the high RPM settings. That was a 7.5 hp motor.

 

[cbacres]

This is the final configuration of the panel thanks to Manwithtools for the plate. It shows the functions and I've also attached a small video to show the operation.

Techie, have you used it to tap yet? I'm watching with interest as I just bought a drill press with a DC motor and speed control. I can add a reverse swicth and suppose to be able to add a foot switch.
I'm just wondering how the motor at low speeds and high tourqe will work.

And while I'm here, what diffrence is there between the VFD/ 3 phase vs. the speed control/DC motor? Is the VFD just the new way?

I have a Teco unit on my Rockwell lathe, mainley to power the 3 phase motor. Works great!
Thanks

 

[mtechgunman]

Is there a good reason as to why I shouldn't run a VFD as a phase converter directly into the original control panel acting strictly as a phase converter, then run an additional VFD solely for the spindle motor on this machine?

There was mention previously to not having switches after the VFD, but if the VFD is providing 3 phase 60 HZ all of the time to the control panel, how is that different from a RPC?

 

[Techie1961]

Techie, have you used it to tap yet? I'm watching with interest as I just bought a drill press with a DC motor and speed control. I can add a reverse swicth and suppose to be able to add a foot switch.
I'm just wondering how the motor at low speeds and high tourqe will work.

And while I'm here, what diffrence is there between the VFD/ 3 phase vs. the speed control/DC motor? Is the VFD just the new way?

I have a Teco unit on my Rockwell lathe, mainley to power the 3 phase motor. Works great!
Thanks

I have used it to tap. It worked extremely well but it was only 3/8-16 that I was tapping. It was sweet to have a reversing foot switch.

I'll do my best to answer the VFD versus DC motor question. In the past, variable speed was a difficult thing to produce with AC motors since there just wasn't any technology to vary the frequency easily. DC was very easy to do this with so they became the go-to for speed control requirements. As the solid-state devices became easier to manufacture, the VFD made its way into industry. Over time, the manufacturing of the transistors needed for the power a motor requires got better and cheaper. Nowadays, a DC motor doesn't make sense.

VFDs are a device that takes AC power and converts it into DC power first. Once you have DC power, you can use that to create the different AC frequencies and then also vary it as you produce it by firing the transistors at different frequencies.

 

[manwithtools]

The other thing to note about AC motors on a VFD vs. DC motors, the AC motors can develop nearly full torque at low speeds where DC motors torque varies with speed.

Techie is right, VFD's have become very cost effective and reliable. They are highly flexible and given the fact you can run a three phase motor with single phase input is a huge benefit. Makes it very practical to acquire commercial grade equipment and use it in your home shop. Also for tools like lathes and mills you can substantially improve it's function.

 

[manwithtools]

Is there a good reason as to why I shouldn't run a VFD as a phase converter directly into the original control panel acting strictly as a phase converter, then run an additional VFD solely for the spindle motor on this machine?

There was mention previously to not having switches after the VFD, but if the VFD is providing 3 phase 60 HZ all of the time to the control panel, how is that different from a RPC?

I hesitate to answer this because a lot depends on the individual situation, but I'll throw this out there: Some VFD's do not like to have their output unloaded while they are operating. This means that you must shut the VFD down before disconnecting a load (motor). The risk you could run on a VFD feeding an entire machine control panel is that someone will throw the disconnect while the VFD is in operation. Newer VFD's are less susceptible to this, but it can still be a risk. There are ways to design a control circuit to prevent this, but it's not trivial and instructing such over the internet is not something I want to get started.

Most of the old equipment is going to be hard to modify because they stuff so much in a control cabinet and the contactors and other devices are not equipped with the desired auxiliary contacts which can be hard to find and expensive for older equipment.

 

[mtechgunman]

That's how I had my Leblond wired simply because I was unfamiliar with VFD's. The VFD ran the shift motor and the spindle motor fine, with the exception of the high spindle speeds. I'd trip a breaker when trying to engage RPMs over 1200. That was a 7.5 horse motor. Obviously I've rectified that and the lathe runs great.

I'm tempted to give it a shot on this mill simply because the lower HP VFD's are so affordable. 1 VFD into control panel, 1 for Spindle motor.

The wiring panel in this machine is congested, but the diagram is phenomenal. All of the circuits enter a terminal bus prior to the runs out of the panel and into the machine, so a total rewire wouldn't be too difficult.

Worst case scenario, I'd have to buy 3 more 1/2 hp VFD's and each motor would get its own.

I dunno, just thinking out loud.


Sent from my iPhone using Tapatalk

 

[cbacres]

Thanks Techie and Manwithtools,
I'm just trying to figuire out if my 1.5 hp Baldor will be plenty enough to tap with.
Craig

 

[454ragtop]

Thanks Techie and Manwithtools,
I'm just trying to figuire out if my 1.5 hp Baldor will be plenty enough to tap with.
Craig

1.5 HP is way more than enough, tapped some 1/2-13 holes in steel with my drill press which has either a 3/4 or 1 HP motor with VFD (can't remember which is on this one), no problem.

 

[GLTHFJ60]

My apologies in advance, as this will undoubtedly be an amateur level question, but I'm going to pose it regardless. It seems that there are many, many quality VFD options out there and since this is outside my area of professional expertise, I'd like to get a recommendation from those more experienced than myself.

I've recently picked up a Rockwell 17-600 with a 1.5hp Dayton single phase motor that's wired up for 220v. What VFD brand and model would you recommend?

EDIT: I have been researching and am currently working my way through the tubalcain videos on the subject.

EDIT2: After watching the tubalcain videos, this model looks like it will do everything I want, and for just a couple hundred, sounds like a decent deal. Reasons not to go this route?

EDIT AGAIN: This is the VFD that replaced the unit that tubalcain used, so this is what I'm considering:

http://www.ebay.com/itm/2-HP-230V-1...E-FREQUENCY-DRIVE-L510-202-H1-N-/121682602867

 

[cbacres]

1.5 HP is way more than enough, tapped some 1/2-13 holes in steel with my drill press which has either a 3/4 or 1 HP motor with VFD (can't remember which is on this one), no problem.

Ragtop/Techie, whe you guys tap, does your set up instant reverse or forward, stop, reverse?

I'm going to go ahead and get the reverse switch and foot pedal for my DC drive and just try it out.

Thanks

 

[Techie1961]

Ragtop/Techie, whe you guys tap, does your set up instant reverse or forward, stop, reverse?

I'm going to go ahead and get the reverse switch and foot pedal for my DC drive and just try it out.

Thanks

It all depends on the curves that are programmed into the VFD. Mine does a ramp down in about a second and then immediately ramps up in the other direction in about the same time. If you want to, you can program so that you stop, wait and then reverse out.

 

[454ragtop]

My apologies in advance, as this will undoubtedly be an amateur level question, but I'm going to pose it regardless. It seems that there are many, many quality VFD options out there and since this is outside my area of professional expertise, I'd like to get a recommendation from those more experienced than myself.

I've recently picked up a Rockwell 17-600 with a 1.5hp Dayton single phase motor that's wired up for 220v. What VFD brand and model would you recommend?

EDIT: I have been researching and am currently working my way through the tubalcain videos on the subject.

EDIT2: After watching the tubalcain videos, this model looks like it will do everything I want, and for just a couple hundred, sounds like a decent deal. Reasons not to go this route?

EDIT AGAIN: This is the VFD that replaced the unit that tubalcain used, so this is what I'm considering:

http://www.ebay.com/itm/2-HP-230V-1...E-FREQUENCY-DRIVE-L510-202-H1-N-/121682602867

Note the 3 PH output of that VFD, not compatible with a single phase motor. Recently learned there are VFD's available for single phase motors, but they are hard to come by, and a lot more expensive than ones used with 3 ph motors. The 17-600's are great drill presses, currently have 4 myself, and adding a 3 ph motor and a VFD to yours will give you what is probably a lifetime drill press.