bmwrd0
Well-known member
Picked this up from the dollar table at an old tractor swap meet this weekend. A little beat up, but I couldn't let it sit there any longer
Show your "Long C" Craftsman!
- Thread starter Outlawmws
- Start date
bmwrd0
Well-known member
Here are some additional pics:
LNKMK8
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d42jeep
Well-known member
Dull as dishwater, here's my whole Long C collection. eBay description: some chrome loss.
The 15/16x1 was incredibly rusty, but e-tanked very nicely, though most of the C turned out to be rust and disappeared. The flip side of the 5/8x3/4 looks pretty good, but since it doesn't have the logo, who cares?
The 15/16x1 was incredibly rusty, but e-tanked very nicely, though most of the C turned out to be rust and disappeared. The flip side of the 5/8x3/4 looks pretty good, but since it doesn't have the logo, who cares?
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btrnuthatch
Well-known member
Here are the pliers and cutter I have. Do all "nested diamond" handles count? Whenever I can find one, I buy it because of the cool handle pattern, hence the duplicates. Lineman's detail Vanadium on left, both with circle c mark on inside handle.
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BNH: If you jump back to page 4, I was able to ID the recessed/circle C Mfg to Channellock. interesting on your water pump pliers that they used the geometric letters and that double underline with USA in it. I'd guess those were late in the era.
Also interesting is that the linenman's pliers had two different jaw patterns; are both marked with the C?
And yes, thews qualify for sure with the geometric font.
Also interesting is that the linenman's pliers had two different jaw patterns; are both marked with the C?
And yes, thews qualify for sure with the geometric font.
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btrnuthatch
Well-known member
Outlaw -- I missed the Channelock reference. Thanks for that pointer. Yes, both marked C as is the 5" cutter (faintly).
I dug out my longC: Cman DOEs, Cman Vanadium DOEs, mix of DBEs.
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DD T/A
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MOPARHOUND!
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Been awhile since I've been on. Dug out a set I bought about 15 years ago, had not fully unwrapped it.
Sadly, the ratchet has gained some patina from moisture, I presume from the atmosphere. Most of the sockets are unused, could pass for N.O.S.......... enjoy..........
Sadly, the ratchet has gained some patina from moisture, I presume from the atmosphere. Most of the sockets are unused, could pass for N.O.S.......... enjoy..........
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Rileysan
Well-known member
Craftsman long-c combo wrench set I got off eBay for $25 plus shipping. I expected to battle it out for these so was surprised to have gotten them for the opening bid. Prior to finding this set on eBay, I only had two combos that I found in the wild (9/16" & 5/8").
Brian
Brian
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bmwrd0
Well-known member
Is that the original roll? Nice!
WWheeler
Well-known member
Not positive but I think these might qualify as a "Short" long C. These were among the first tools handed down to me. I used to use them quite a bit. No # on them & no idea exactly how old they might be except that they are probably older than I am. Is the 'C' inside the handles a manufacturer code by chance?
6" diagonal cutters. I think the handle pattern is called a 'nested diamond' iirc.
6" diagonal cutters. I think the handle pattern is called a 'nested diamond' iirc.
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d42jeep
Well-known member
The pattern on your craftsman handles are different than the pattern on my Channellock tools. What do you guys think?
-Don
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I think its the angle and the smaller size of the dykes. Looks the same to me taking that into account.
Yes the Indented "circle" C is Channellock.
I would not call that a "Short" long C just the geometric letter fount. I have seen a half under line Long C, which I would call the short and the full underline of course, and I think I have some where the C only underlined one letter. so maybe thats is the short and the half underline is medium?
Yes the Indented "circle" C is Channellock.
I would not call that a "Short" long C just the geometric letter fount. I have seen a half under line Long C, which I would call the short and the full underline of course, and I think I have some where the C only underlined one letter. so maybe thats is the short and the half underline is medium?
Private Lugnutz
Well-known member
The so-called "Nested Diamond" grips on Long or Geometric C Craftsman era pliers don't look anything at all like the "Headless Arrow" (for lack of a better description) grips on Chanellock pliers. I'm confused. Why are you making the comparison?
Username already in use
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I've got no skin in the game here, but I'm not sure that Champion DeArment made those long C pliers.
Private Lugnutz
Well-known member
??? Are you looking at the tools in photo 1 (all of which are Craftsman) compared to the tools in photo 2 (all of which are Channellock)?
d42jeep
Well-known member
I've got no skin in the game here, but I'm not sure that Champion DeArment made those long C pliers.
The assertion has been made that Champion deArment (Channellock) was the manufacturer of the Craftsman. Based on the handle patterns, I’m just not seeing it. That’s why I posed the comparison. Like Username, I don’t have any of those patterned Craftsman tools.
-Don
Private Lugnutz
Well-known member
Thanks. I am following now. I missed the conversation on the last page. Also missed Outlaw's Champion DeArment as Craftsman Circle-C theory on page 4.
Outlaw,
Am I missing something? Or are you postulating that Champion DeArment made their own "Channellock" pliers with their own distinctive grip (again, resembling a "Headless Arrow") but made the pliers they made for Craftsman with a completely different ("Nested-Diamonds") grip? Or are there Champion DeArment pliers out there with Nested-Diamond pattern grips that I don't know about?
Outlaw,
Am I missing something? Or are you postulating that Champion DeArment made their own "Channellock" pliers with their own distinctive grip (again, resembling a "Headless Arrow") but made the pliers they made for Craftsman with a completely different ("Nested-Diamonds") grip? Or are there Champion DeArment pliers out there with Nested-Diamond pattern grips that I don't know about?
I see now. I thought he was comparing to wheeler's dykes. I never expanded Photo 2...
As far as the difference in grips, yes, I think they made them distinctly different so as not to be is such direct competition with themselves, or more likely, by Sears request so they were not so obviously Channellock.
The page 4 comparison is of the detailed jaw/cutter forgings and jaw patterns and was made to determine which of two guesses were right from Lauvers (and others) suppositions. I think those are more telling. No reason to change things up there, as no one back in the day would be likely to look that close. But the handles were obvious.
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Private Lugnutz
Well-known member
Thanks for explaining. Personally, I'm not seeing enough distinction in the patterns. I just pulled out a mess of lineman's pliers (Channellock, Utica, Diamond, Craftsman and Crescent), and I can't find any that did NOT use a cross-hatch pattern jaw grip, and when I "blind tested" myself (mixing them up without knowing the brands), I had a hard time identifying them from each other by the jaw grip. But I'm not going to argue with you. Your theory does stress that whoever made the pliers for Craftsman did not use the same "Nested-Diamond" pattern grip on their own pliers, so you do have that going for you, and that's very unusual. You can always identify the pliers Crescent or J.P. Danielson, for example, made for others by the grip.
Rileysan
Well-known member
I think the tool roll is homemade. Nevertheless, I think it's cool and will keep the wrench set together with the roll.
While everyone else argues the semantics of knurling patterns on pliers, here's something uncommon, if not rare. Craftsman catalog number 4446, 6 piece tappet wrench set in the original (and quite unique) "metal clip". I acquired this at a swap meet last month ($20) and tucked it away until I could find it in a catalog. I wasn't even sure if the tray (clip) was original to this set but was delighted to finally find it in the 1942 catalog. The set in the tray is not found in the 1948 or newer catalogs.
Brian
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My Long C collection just grew by 50%!!
Picked up this little guy at an estate sale in a tool box full - didn't even see it until I unloaded and sorted back at home.
The finish is kind of odd - it doesn't appear to me to be plated, rather it has a black finish on everything but the flat faces of the jaws. They are polished, but not plated. Is it japanned? Parkerized? just painted? And is it a factory finish or someone's refinish job?
...and thanks to BuffettFan's post back on page 18 or so, (and replies to it) I have an answer. Yup, it's a factory finish, WWII production so unplated.
Picked up this little guy at an estate sale in a tool box full - didn't even see it until I unloaded and sorted back at home.
The finish is kind of odd - it doesn't appear to me to be plated, rather it has a black finish on everything but the flat faces of the jaws. They are polished, but not plated. Is it japanned? Parkerized? just painted? And is it a factory finish or someone's refinish job?
...and thanks to BuffettFan's post back on page 18 or so, (and replies to it) I have an answer. Yup, it's a factory finish, WWII production so unplated.
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Here’s a pipe wrench. The decal on the head is longC, though the font on the handle is not. I had aeen two of these, one a 10” and the other a 12”, but that vendor wanted them more than I did. A couple weeks later I saw this one at a more wallet-friendly price.
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I was curious about the longC/circleC pliers discussion. I pulled my longC, but I don’t have linemans, just one Button’s pattern. I do have two sizes of diagonal, and a chain-nose. The two dikes have a different appearance from the side, where the pivot is (the last photo is a longC chain nose pliers alongside the ChannelLock dikes, showing the same appearance). Similar variation exists among and within other manufacturers. I think that may be a difference in production year. I have a feeling that the machined relief is a positive stop, the patent for which may have expired. (Now I’ll have to research that!)
The crosshatch and parallel teeth are variations that have been demonstrated to exist within longC (here), and if you look at the Utica catalog, for instance, linemans could be ordered with either type of teeth.
If I understand what the “dip” Outlaw points out is, it does seems to be a variation among manufacturers, but I have two M Klein & Sons linemans, one with and one without the dip. So, I think that can be a variation within a manufacturer, too, and not necessarily a fingerprint. PS&W and Red Devil, and a German and two English linemans also showed that dip.
The small dikes I’m holding here have a number of similarities, and the general weight and finish is strikingly similar, despite the different appearance alongside the pivot.
Another specific similarity is the pivot pin itself. In all the longC I have, the side that is fixed is held by four teeth. Some other brands have other means, like cog or pentagonal cross-sections. The ChannelLocks I looked at had either four or six triangular teeth, very much like the longCs. Still, this is not a unique feature. IIRC, the Kleins used the same type of pin.
I do think Outlaw has made a good identification, but I’d like to see more examples to be sure. (And find some more longC for myself!)
The crosshatch and parallel teeth are variations that have been demonstrated to exist within longC (here), and if you look at the Utica catalog, for instance, linemans could be ordered with either type of teeth.
If I understand what the “dip” Outlaw points out is, it does seems to be a variation among manufacturers, but I have two M Klein & Sons linemans, one with and one without the dip. So, I think that can be a variation within a manufacturer, too, and not necessarily a fingerprint. PS&W and Red Devil, and a German and two English linemans also showed that dip.
The small dikes I’m holding here have a number of similarities, and the general weight and finish is strikingly similar, despite the different appearance alongside the pivot.
Another specific similarity is the pivot pin itself. In all the longC I have, the side that is fixed is held by four teeth. Some other brands have other means, like cog or pentagonal cross-sections. The ChannelLocks I looked at had either four or six triangular teeth, very much like the longCs. Still, this is not a unique feature. IIRC, the Kleins used the same type of pin.
I do think Outlaw has made a good identification, but I’d like to see more examples to be sure. (And find some more longC for myself!)
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Bill Ramsey
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Private Lugnutz
Well-known member
That has always been part of the conundrum for me, Outlaw. Does it make sense to contract with a pliers mfgr for only one type of pliers? And, hypothetically, if you were going to do that, and for linesman pliers, why Champion DeArment? They were not the industry leader.
A related issue. The so-called "Nested Diamond" handle pattern grip was used on many types of pliers, including combination slip joint, dykes, lineman's, and angle-nose (Water pump). But not all the pliers have the Circle-C code. Some have an AM code. Some have other codes if I recall correctly. That can only mean one of a few things:
- Either Sears & Roebuck owned the pattern, and gave it out to multiple mfgrs to use in their dies
- One of the mfgrs owned it, and let other Sears & Roebuck mfgrs use it
- Or the codes are not mfgr's codes (i.e., one mfgr who owns the grip made them all)
Of those three, the third is the most reasonable. The first is the least reasonable (Sears & Roebuck simply had no engineering or manufacturing capability). And the second is hard to believe.
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I was stoked today to find the 7/16 combo; ever-closer to filling my little blue box.
Also saw a second saw with the underline logo medalion. This one was in better overall condition, but the blade was pretty badly kinked. I mention it, not to tease, but just to indicate that there must be a good number of them out there.
Also saw a second saw with the underline logo medalion. This one was in better overall condition, but the blade was pretty badly kinked. I mention it, not to tease, but just to indicate that there must be a good number of them out there.
