Smokeshow69
Well-known member
I have never seen the short shifter ratchet posted! That thing is way cool! I will holler at rileysan to see if he has any thoughts or input!
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Show your "Long C" Craftsman!
- Thread starter Outlawmws
- Start date
I have never seen the short shifter ratchet posted! That thing is way cool! I will holler at rileysan to see if he has any thoughts or input!
Sent from my iPhone using The Garage Journal mobile app
Private Lugnutz
Well-known member
Interesting nuance, Joco. When I did the mini deep dive on the Costello ratchet design variant evolution on Outlaw's old thread, followed by the date code survey, I never made a distinction between the NB/None Better/Husky and Craftsman branded rats. I don't think anyone has noticed no 3rd gen (short lever, 3 bands, ON/OFF marking) Craftsman branded ratchets before. Well done.
JoCoSawdust
Well-known member
100 percent agree that shift lever is awesome. If there's a Craftsman branded one out there (I don't think there is) I've got to have one!
JoCoSawdust
Well-known member
I'm half disappointed and half breathing a sigh of relief Lugz! Great job with the Stickies BTW.
d42jeep
Well-known member
All of my research had to do with New Britain tools only. I can’t really speak to what New Britain was selling to Sears. They may have had a huge quantity of those long levers to unload. My only Craftsman branded ratchet is 1/4” drive.
-Don
-Don
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Oldtuleguy
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Rileysan
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Definitely the first time I've seen that selector, though I haven't collected many New Britain/Husky/None Better ratchets.
This is defintely a question for Gearwolf. He knew about the Fors patent Craftsman ratchet even before I posted about finding one on eBay. I've been at this far too short a time to have seen everything, but I watch eBay auctions religiously and have never come across a Craftsman ratchet with that selector.
Brian
Private Lugnutz
Well-known member
Thanks. Thanks also for following my link back to the previous conversation and examples of the design evolution of the Costello patent ratchets. Sometimes it feels like Groundhog Day around here to me. In this case it was even better than simply not re-treading old ground, because you found a Craftsman-focused nuance that we hadn't noticed.
I don't know that's there's much room for debate. But there is some uncertainty. Which sounds counterintuitive until you dig in to the facts.
As I pointed out in the older discussion, and in summary last night, the patent diagram (1937) shows the 1st gen design (Frankenstein buttons). Those being made between 1937 and July 1940 (when the patent was granted) and marked PAT PEND make sense. Because the 2nd gen design (long lever, NO Frankie buttons, all-knurled handle) - which is what you have, are also marked PAT PEND, it's logical to conclude that they were also made before 1940, the scenario there being that NB's minor design change (losing the Frankie buttons) did not affect the patent. It's the 3rd gen Costello ratchet (short selector, three bands of knurling, ON/OFF marking) that causes trouble for the 2nd gen Costello ratchets being wartime. They were introduced in a New Britain catalog that is physically dated October 1940. The cat includes a wonderful x-ray figure showing the selector (if you follow the link I provided in my first post in reply to JoCo last night, I included an excerpt in the older conversation.) That would mean a boatload of leftover NOS 2nd gen Costello ratchets, made before the 3rd gen Costello ratchets in 1940, carried over to 1942.
Ironically, though, it's the Craftsman situation that gives you - and a whole platoon of WWII collectors without 3rd gen Costello ratchets, some squiggle defense room. Empirically, as JoCo's heretofore unrecognized nuance points out, there doesn't appear to be any 3rd gen Costello Craftsman BE (edit: or (H)) ratchets. And the 1942 Craftsman catalog is still showing 2nd gen Costello ratchets. (Even going so far as to include the "New and Improved" tagline about a long selector that had already been surpassed in design by NB in an NB catalog TWO YEARS prior.) Which implies - and supports the empirical evidence - that NB was still making the 2nd gen Costello ratchets, at least for Craftsman, in parallel to the 3rd gen ratchets they were making for in-house lines.
If they were making them for Craftsman, however illogical it seems, I suppose it raises the possibility they were still making them for themselves, too.
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JoCoSawdust
Well-known member
I pulled out all my older style rats that aren't committed to sets this AM, wondering if I'd find anything I hadn't noticed. Nothing ground breaking. There is a variance in finishes, some being chromed, some appearing to be unfinished. I'm of the opinion that pre-war, wartime or post-war has to do with finish, not characteristics of the ratchet itself (aside from the PAT PEND and occasional date as another thread refers to). I threw in the 1/4" female drives (2 chromed, one not) and 3/8" reversibles. The one up top is obviously a New Britain branded. It doesn't appear to me that the Craftsman 3/8 drives ever got the Gen3 bands of knurling either (I've never seen one for sale online and like Brian I spend a ridiculous amount of time watching). Until I see something that proves otherwise I'm going with the BE and H rats not changing from 40 on.
Catfishdan
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JoCoSawdust
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Love those nested diamond tools. One thing I can never walk away from at a flea
RubiconJK
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JoCoSawdust
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1936-37 Long Head 1/4" female drive ratchet. I picked this up from eBay for a surprisingly good price with free shipping. 20 tooth gear as with the later NB-made 1/4" female drive and 3/8" drive reversible ratchets.
Semi-hole mechanic
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r_olson_06
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I will have to grab some pics. I have a long head 1/4" drive ratchet but it looks different than that. I have not seen another one like it.1936-37 Long Head 1/4" female drive ratchet. I picked this up from eBay for a surprisingly good price with free shipping. 20 tooth gear as with the later NB-made 1/4" female drive and 3/8" drive reversible ratchets.
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JoCoSawdust
Well-known member
I've got five 1/4" female drive rats now and within those 5 rats I've noticed 3 different variants. Look at the middle and far right rats here. The head of the middle rat is narrower (1.32") than the head of the rat on the right (1.49). Also notice the directional levers of those two rats. The lever on the middle rat is wider (.93") than the lever on the right (.74). The lever of the middle rat pivots on a screw unlike the one on the right which pivots on a rivet. I thought at first this might be a user modification but on close inspection it's obviously not. The wide head/narrow shift lever seems to be the final stage of changes as I've got at least a half dozen reversible 3/8 drive rats with that design. I wouldn't consider the middle rat to be a long head because of the directional lever but at first glance it does kind of look like one. My guess is that NB decided, shortly after moving away from the long head rat, that they needed to beef up the head of the rat.
Provincial
Well-known member
I just picked up one of the "fat head" ratchets Sunday. No drive plug.
1936-37 Long Head 1/4" female drive ratchet. I picked this up from eBay for a surprisingly good price with free shipping. 20 tooth gear as with the later NB-made 1/4" female drive and 3/8" drive reversible ratchets.
Was that the one that was up a few days ago? I saw that one and took a pass on it. The photos appeared to make the retention plate have wear/chrome loss. I'd say it is definitely an example of serendipity considering you received something that was actually in nicer shape!
I'd say you did VERY well for the ~$30 you paid, especially in that condition. I am happy for you!
JoCoSawdust
Well-known member
Yes GW, that's the same one. All it needed was a bit of TLC. I'm very pleased with it!
What's your thoughts on the variances between the two other female drive rats? I'm thinking the narrower headed one is a transition from the long head and at some point they decided to beef up the head of the rat OR they were initially using a different casting for the female drives and then started using the same body for both the open drive 1/4" and the reversible 3/8 drive.
Lugz is absolutely on point. The Craftsman brand never took advantage of the NS40/S40's third iteration selector. Based on what I have read, I believe Sears was starting to look elsewhere for an all encompassing tool supplier back in the late 1930s to early 1940s, rather than do the hen pecking it had done since 1927. MDF and Sears already had an established relationship by this time. I'll get into why I believe this to be the case in one of the videos.
Yep, I've known about the Fors patent Craftsman variant for at least 5-6 years. I owe that knowledge to MrCraftsmanTools actually. We have had many phone conversations about a lot of the anomalies we both have found over the last few years. I believe we have both gained a lot!
Yet, I have plenty to share in the coming months. I'm trying to keep mum about the things I have learned. I had anticipated on having this rolling by last year. Unfortunately, we had several losses in the family, a lot of time at work, and playing catch up with other things. I'm hoping to have something at least filmed, not necessarily mastered, by the end of November.
JoCoSawdust
Well-known member
"Fathead". I like that! The drive plugs are the bane of my existence. I've managed to cobble together 2 each of the 1/4" and 3/8 plugs but they're committed to sets so I'm always rummaging in the bottom of dirty bins of cast off sockets.
JoCoSawdust
Well-known member
Lugz is absolutely on point. The Craftsman brand never took advantage of the NS40/S40's third iteration selector. Based on what I have read, I believe Sears was starting to look elsewhere for an all encompassing tool supplier back in the late 1930s to early 1940s, rather than do the hen pecking it had done since 1927. MDF and Sears already had an established relationship by this time. I'll get into why I believe this to be the case in one of the videos.
Yep, I've known about the Fors patent Craftsman variant for at least 5-6 years. I owe that knowledge to MrCraftsmanTools actually. We have had many phone conversations about a lot of the anomalies we both have found over the last few years. I believe we have both gained a lot!
Yet, I have plenty to share in the coming months. I'm trying to keep mum about the things I have learned. I had anticipated on having this rolling by last year. Unfortunately, we had several losses in the family, a lot of time at work, and playing catch up with other things. I'm hoping to have something at least filmed, not necessarily mastered, by the end of November.
Sorry to hear about your losses GW. Looking forward to hearing what you've learned. I refer to your videos all the time. My wife always rolls her eyes when I'm kicked back in my lazy dad chair watching one...."those again"????
Finding the OEM plugs can be difficult, especially the 3/8". Besides the poor photos, that was THE reason I hesitated on buying the female "Longhead" you have. All of my plugs are committed to other pieces.
I kept on thinking, "Oh, man...here we go again."
Hahahaha! I've had plenty of people contact me directly on the phone, via email, or via other forums about that very same thing! I've heard, "Much to my wife's dismay...", quite a bit hahahaha!
When it comes to the project, I'm the voice you hear and the hands you see, but there are several people that have been instrumental to making the original series happen, as well as plenty of people here!
I'm hoping that the considerable upgrade in technology, supporting equipment, and new information will be worth the wait. While still largely funded privately, selling the ratchets and receiving tool donations/funding has really helped out!
I have an idea about that; however, I'm going to talk about it during the new video.
JoCoSawdust
Well-known member
Looking forward to it!
r_olson_06
Well-known member
Mine looks similar but yet different.
Looking for the following Plomb Pebbles Wrench 3061
JoCoSawdust
Well-known member
Mine looks similar but yet different.
Looking for the following Plomb Pebbles Wrench 3061
Nice! 36-37 if I'm not mistaken. Kinda odd to have a reversing switch on a female drive. That one is a rare bird!
r_olson_06
Well-known member
Is this first gen of Craftsman 1/4" drive? Is it BE?
Looking for the following Plomb Pebbles Wrench 3061
Looking for the following Plomb Pebbles Wrench 3061
JoCoSawdust
Well-known member
Definitely NB made. I know the 3/8 reversible like that is marked BE. I do believe that'd be Gen 1 BE but I can't say with certainty. I have my catalogs hard drive packed up to get on the road tomorrow. Gear Wrench would know for sure.
r_olson_06
Well-known member
Sorry the app needs to tell you how full it is.
I appricate the info.
Looking for the following Plomb Pebbles Wrench 3061
Oldtuleguy
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Mine looks similar but yet different.
Looking for the following Plomb Pebbles Wrench 3061
Very rare pre long c.
r_olson_06
Well-known member
Thanks. I was really excited to get this about a year ago when I was still pushing hard on ratchets. I have never seen any like it and thought it might be an inbetweeny.
Craftsman didn't make a ratchet for the 9/32" set that snap on manufactured for them did they?
Looking for the following Plomb Pebbles Wrench 3061
JoCoSawdust
Well-known member
No. The 9/32 midget sets didn't come with a rat.
bmwrd0
Well-known member
I picked up this early top box recently:
The remains of the label decal, you can just make out a few letters:
It still has the removable tray with the rotating handle:
It's not the earliest, as it has drawer slides, but they are still very smooth after all this time. I wasn't too sure what it was when I got it, but the blue on the inside gave me a strong hint:
It wasn't very full, and I think it had been picked over, but there was a mix of vintage tools in it; Snap-on, MAC, Cornwell, SK, Craftsman, etc. Even a PEXTO body dolly.
I also picked up this four-jaw chuck of eBay, as it is perfect for my '37 6 inch lathe.
The remains of the label decal, you can just make out a few letters:
It still has the removable tray with the rotating handle:
It's not the earliest, as it has drawer slides, but they are still very smooth after all this time. I wasn't too sure what it was when I got it, but the blue on the inside gave me a strong hint:
It wasn't very full, and I think it had been picked over, but there was a mix of vintage tools in it; Snap-on, MAC, Cornwell, SK, Craftsman, etc. Even a PEXTO body dolly.
I also picked up this four-jaw chuck of eBay, as it is perfect for my '37 6 inch lathe.
JoCoSawdust
Well-known member
I picked up this early top box recently:
The remains of the label decal, you can just make out a few letters:
It still has the removable tray with the rotating handle:
It's not the earliest, as it has drawer slides, but they are still very smooth after all this time. I wasn't too sure what it was when I got it, but the blue on the inside gave me a strong hint:
It wasn't very full, and I think it had been picked over, but there was a mix of vintage tools in it; Snap-on, MAC, Cornwell, SK, Craftsman, etc. Even a PEXTO body dolly.
I also picked up this four-jaw chuck of eBay, as it is perfect for my '37 6 inch lathe.
Cool old box. Does it have drawer slides?
bmwrd0
Well-known member
Yes, it has slides. Still very smooth after 80 years.
Rileysan
Well-known member
Outstanding find (and rescue)!
Brian
Brian
JoCoSawdust
Well-known member
Yes that is an outstanding find and it answers a question I had about the progression of those early chests. That chest has the old logo and the later (larger) tray and compartment partitioning. I was curious as to wether or not that version had drawer slides. My best semi-educated guess is that bmw's chest is a 1940 model. The 39 has old logo, different partitioning, smaller tray and no drawer slides. The 41 and forward chest has all the features of bmw's chest but with the larger, rectangular metal logo.