Rileysan
Well-known member
Welcome to my disease!
Show your "Long C" Craftsman!
- Thread starter Outlawmws
- Start date
Welcome to my disease!
r_olson_06
Well-known member
Thanks for the detailed write up that helps a lot.Nope. The C-98 was absolutely 100% made by Snap On. It was born and died at the bleeding edge of the failing relationship between Sears & Snap On. Few were made for a very short amount of time.
Snap On has made orphans before. The L-67 is certainly one of them. While it is the slightly younger brother, where Snap On gave the Gagne patent another whirl about 10 years later (~early/mid 1940s), the L-67, uses literally the same mechanism without modification. The difference is the handle and the finish. That ratchet had no other corresponding pieces made like it. It was an odd duck among various designs, which had complete ratchet families, that came before, during, and after its time. The C-98 is the same. Snap on would flirt with the Gagne patent one more time about 10 years further still (~early/mid 1950s) with the LR-42, FR-42, and their corresponding flex heads. They just didn't catch on. Plus, they are a CHORE to maintain.
I called Snap On years ago and spoke with their museum head. They really want a C-98 in their collection pretty bad, as they do have exhibits of their time working with Sears. I was told theirs "walked out" many years ago. The C-98 was part of the pitch to revive the relationship between Sears & Snap On. It didn't pan out obviously
There has been one theory we have kicked the can on and not sure if you would have any insight with your deep dive into all things Craftsman ratchets. There is still an unknown manufacturer of the S.R. series tools.
They were obivious Plomb made specifically WF series. Until the more recent discovery that Craftsman was having the same ratchet (Plomb WF series) in their 1/4" drive sets that were unbranded.
Now for the questions. Have you seen any reference in any Sears catalog to a Sears Roebuck socket set that would be around the early 40s timeframe?
Do you have a Sears savant that would be able to substantiate this theory?
Once again thank you for all your hard work in sheding light on this topic.
Looking for the following Plomb Pebbles Wrench 3061
Lugz, with the strange and sometimes incestuous relationships between the various tool manufacturers in that era, and particularly in the war years, seeing MFG A going to MFG B to fill an order for either Sears or the government doesn't surprise me at all. To Sears its a suppliers code, and as far as they are concerned its one manufactured/supplier. so a few anomalies will almost certainly surface. this is especially apparent when MFG X buys MFG Z out and the code is kept. Covel and other power tool companies comes to mind. an independent company, Atlas bought them out and continued to supply the Covel power hack saw.
Private Lugnutz
Well-known member
Totally agree and I am not surprised at all. Note I said "another" example. Having said that, I would bet my next paycheck that 9 out of 10 collectors still adhere to the codes in the "lauver" chart (don't get me wrong, great guy, and yeoman's effort and work!) - and specifically, I have never seen anyone suggest that Vlchek was getting any of the "BT" tools that it was supplying to Sears, Roebuck & Co from any other OEM, let alone New Britain. So it is noteworthy.
bmwrd0
Well-known member
End of an Era:
You might think, "what's he doing putting a Heritage logo box in this section?"
Well, I started to fill it up with circle H and BE bits (sadly, it is missing the sheet metal part to hold sockets):
The reason being, I only found this particular box in the '47 catalog, which clearly showed the Heritage logo and New Britan sourced tools. The last of a line, mixed with the start of a new one?
You might think, "what's he doing putting a Heritage logo box in this section?"
Well, I started to fill it up with circle H and BE bits (sadly, it is missing the sheet metal part to hold sockets):
The reason being, I only found this particular box in the '47 catalog, which clearly showed the Heritage logo and New Britan sourced tools. The last of a line, mixed with the start of a new one?
Rileysan
Well-known member
End of an Era:
You might think, "what's he doing putting a Heritage logo box in this section?"
Well, I started to fill it up with circle H and BE bits (sadly, it is missing the sheet metal part to hold sockets):
The reason being, I only found this particular box in the '47 catalog, which clearly showed the Heritage logo and New Britan sourced tools. The last of a line, mixed with the start of a new one?
There was an overlap of 3 manufacturers at that time (NB, Plomb, MDF), with New Britain sourced tools being advertised in the catalogs through 1948, and all 3 could be found in the same socket boxes. That, and there can be found mixed manufacturers within the same sets. Scott and I both have mixed 1/4" drive sets containing NB sockets and an unmarked Plomb ratchet.
Brian
Last edited:
Private Lugnutz
Well-known member
'Zackly, Beemer. There are several examples of complete BE/(H) sets in boxes with =CRAFTSMAN= badges in this thread, and plenty previous discussion. As you have noticed yourself, the late 40's catalogs actually show that combination.
EDIT: X-posted with Brian.
Smokeshow69
Well-known member
Yes, the 1/4" set you mentioned is clearly depicted in the Sears Catalog, although it was done so only briefly. I will have to look at my notes for the specific range of time.
Here a photo of the set you wanted to see:
View media item 98461
Last edited:
I have been half in half out about the "maker's mark" codes and their range of dates. There are tool sets featuring the same mark, where everything there is made by a specific manufacturer. There are those that don't. The same goes for the range of dates. The "contract code" concept makes a lot of sense, which may/may not include pieces of different manufacturers together. Unfortunately, I don't have much to add to the conversation other than my own speculation.
Getting feedback about things like this from Sears hasn't yielded much for me; yet, I wouldn't say that someone else couldn't find out more from them or elsewhere. The company is in disarray. The left hand doesn't know what the right hand is doing. It is a shame, since the "Long C" history could have benefited from this understanding.
Last edited:
You know Lugz, I was thinking about the Craftsman DVD set that many of us reference. I have most of the Sears Catalogs from 1920 through 1993. I am missing 6 or 7 throughout that time span.
There is a bit of information about the timeline of Craftsman ratchets that is missing, since most folks who enjoy studying this topic reference it. For instance, it is missing corresponding catalogs (Fall/Winter, Spring/Summer, Seasonal Supplemental, or consistent Craftsman brochures/flyers) during the 1930s & 1940s. There are individual tools or sets that most people never get to see or learn about as it is incomplete. Compounding the problem, especially in the 1930s, catalogs can and do add/subtract products based on their corresponding regional Sears distribution network. Given this, if you lived in Boston, you weren't necessarily going to have access to the exact same products as in Seattle. The Craftsman DVD set, sadly, doesn't feature this.
Logistically, tackling and acquiring these specific catalogs is a nightmare, let alone finding intact examples to actually reference. Then there is the issue of money, storage, and more.
This is not to say that someone shouldn't want to seek the Craftsman DVD set out. It is an excellent place to start. I absolutely, without reservation, promote folks to go and buy it. 70-80% of what you need is there, but that missing component, especially in the early days, is important.
There is a bit of information about the timeline of Craftsman ratchets that is missing, since most folks who enjoy studying this topic reference it. For instance, it is missing corresponding catalogs (Fall/Winter, Spring/Summer, Seasonal Supplemental, or consistent Craftsman brochures/flyers) during the 1930s & 1940s. There are individual tools or sets that most people never get to see or learn about as it is incomplete. Compounding the problem, especially in the 1930s, catalogs can and do add/subtract products based on their corresponding regional Sears distribution network. Given this, if you lived in Boston, you weren't necessarily going to have access to the exact same products as in Seattle. The Craftsman DVD set, sadly, doesn't feature this.
Logistically, tackling and acquiring these specific catalogs is a nightmare, let alone finding intact examples to actually reference. Then there is the issue of money, storage, and more.
This is not to say that someone shouldn't want to seek the Craftsman DVD set out. It is an excellent place to start. I absolutely, without reservation, promote folks to go and buy it. 70-80% of what you need is there, but that missing component, especially in the early days, is important.
Last edited:
Here are photos of what appear to be the same Spring/Summer 1934 Sears Catalog; however, they are regional. Each one is slightly different than one another, where some products are offered in one but not the other. Some feature completely different products.
The point I am trying to convey is that in order to get the entire picture, you'd need to seek each of the catalogs for every hub center and evaluate them. This more or less multiplies the number of catalogs you'd need for each release by a factor of 6 give or take.
After everything I've put into this, I've had to come to the realization that, given my own obligations, I can only take this so far. Much like those who came before, I'll be able to add what I can and leave the rest up to those interested in building the knowledge base further about the "Long C" era.
Here are a few of them:
View media item 98474
View media item 98473
View media item 98472
View media item 98475
The point I am trying to convey is that in order to get the entire picture, you'd need to seek each of the catalogs for every hub center and evaluate them. This more or less multiplies the number of catalogs you'd need for each release by a factor of 6 give or take.
After everything I've put into this, I've had to come to the realization that, given my own obligations, I can only take this so far. Much like those who came before, I'll be able to add what I can and leave the rest up to those interested in building the knowledge base further about the "Long C" era.
Here are a few of them:
View media item 98474
View media item 98473
View media item 98472
View media item 98475
Last edited:
Private Lugnutz
Well-known member
I don't have it. My main collecting niche with Craftsman is immediate pre-war, wartime, and postwar. I have referenced the 1939, 1941, 1942, and the 1948 (technically, published November 1947), 1949, and several 1950's. Wartime is a sizable gap in my documentation, of course, but most of the questions or issues I had with no wartime catalogs in the public domain to consult directly were rectified by deduction (of the pre- and postwar catalogs) and the supplemental use of Sears Christmas catalogs in some of the gap years that are hosted on WishbookWeb (a site for mail order catalog fans). I know from me requesting and Dave sending me a copy of the DVD index that he has some documents in the gap years that might be helpful, including something about wartime production, but he wasn’t interested in segmenting just that part for me and I wasn’t interested in buying the whole DVD given my narrow interest. That’s not a comment on his price. I am just ̶f̶r̶u̶g̶a̶l̶ cheap.
Private Lugnutz
Well-known member
Having said that, I did mean to bid on the very early and perhaps first ever if I'm not mistaken (1913) Sears, Roebuck, & Co Autokit No. 1 socket set (made by Bay State) that recently sold on eBay for the depressingly paltry sum of $33, and I do find myself increasingly dragged into discussions to the left and right of wartime on the timeline, so maybe it's time I dug deeper...
d42jeep
Well-known member
twertsy
Well-known member
Private Lugnutz
Well-known member
The logo and the knurling matches Snap-on provided mid-30's CRAFTSMAN 1/2-inch drive C-series. Maybe the F after the C in the model number is for Ferret!
Lugz I've been talking with Dave about a "lower cost" option for folks interested in his work. Since it is low volume, each "press" of the DVD costs him a pretty decent amount. He has been thinking he could distribute via USB drives, since 8/16gb can be had for 1/4 of the price optical media costs him to make. I can't speak for Dave, but, perhaps in the future, you can obtain this for a lower price if he goes this route. The more in the know the better.
He has been a busy guy lately. He runs his own small business and recently got married. I've been giving him some space to give him time with his new family. I promised him I would promote his work on YouTube, once I got the ball rolling. I fully intend on keeping my word.
He has been a busy guy lately. He runs his own small business and recently got married. I've been giving him some space to give him time with his new family. I promised him I would promote his work on YouTube, once I got the ball rolling. I fully intend on keeping my word
.Rileysan
Well-known member
Lugz I've been talking with Dave about a "lower cost" option for folks interested in his work. Since it is low volume, each "press" of the DVD costs him a pretty decent amount. He has been thinking he could distribute via USB drives, since 8/16gb can be had for 1/4 of the price optical media costs him to make. I can't speak for Dave, but, perhaps in the future, you can obtain this for a lower price if he goes this route. The more in the know the better.
He has been a busy guy lately. He runs his own small business and recently got married. I've been giving him some space to give him time with his new family. I promised him I would promote his work on YouTube, once I got the ball rolling. I fully intend on keeping my word
Dave got a bit of a boost by way of my introducing his work to the Craftsman FB collector's groups. I know of at least 2 sales that resulted from my crediting his DVDs and know of many more interested parties. While I doubt it was ever intended to be a profitable venture for him, there's something to be said for having a DVD with his name on it; it makes me want to protect and credit the work.
It would feel wrong to copy that excellent work to the public domain - something I fear will happen if sold on thumb drives at a reduced cost. Indeed, all it would take is for one of the big eBay hacks to purchase a cheaper version, and it will be everywhere.
Personally, I would discourage putting them on thumb drive. Just my .02.
Brian
d42jeep
Well-known member
The logo and the knurling matches Snap-on provided mid-30's CRAFTSMAN 1/2-inch drive C-series. Maybe the F after the C in the model number is for Ferret!
I kind of discounted Snap-on because the 3/8” drive extension didn’t resemble either my very early 1932 Ferret one or my 1945 wartime one. I suppose they could have been made to Craftsman’s specifications though.
Attachments
Last edited:
Private Lugnutz
Well-known member
The 1/2-inch drive CRAFTSMAN C-series doesn't scream Snappy to most people, either, Don, but I find the shoulders and the crude slanted knurling reminiscent.
d42jeep
Well-known member
Here is a direct comparison shot or two that I just took. The early and wartime extensions are much closer in appearance than the Craftsman one. I’m still doubtful that Snap-on made the Craftsman but I wouldn’t bet any money on it, one way or the other. It’s well established that Snap-on made the ratchets, not so much on the sockets and extensions. These sockets don’t have any resemblance to Snap-on if you ask me. New Britain gets my vote. Maybe there are earlier ones I haven’t seen. The Snap-ons are from ‘40 and ‘41.
-Don
-Don
Attachments
Last edited:
JoCoSawdust
Well-known member
Gear Wolf: Those regional catalogs are unique and it's amazing to see four different ones together. I agree that there's a lot of missing history out there between the regional catalogs, supplements and items sold only in retail stores.
Brian: I agree about the thumb drives. I've been approached by more than one member from the other site wanting me to "burn" them a copy of David's work. I won't do it but if it can be gotten cheaper than it already is (I think it's a bargain at the current price) it's only a matter of time before it's passed around like a joint at a Pink Floyd concert.
r_olsen: If I'm not mistaken you were asking about a catalog image of a 40s era Sears and Roebuck set to solve the SR mystery. I scrubbed what I have (the DVD set) back when we were on this subject in another thread and couldn't find evidence of any such sets. That of course doesn't take into account missing catalogs or even the possibility that they could have been a retail-only set.
Thanks to all contributing to the conversation about the C-series socket OEM. I only own 9/32 sets so I'm living vicariously through you till I find other examples.
Brian: I agree about the thumb drives. I've been approached by more than one member from the other site wanting me to "burn" them a copy of David's work. I won't do it but if it can be gotten cheaper than it already is (I think it's a bargain at the current price) it's only a matter of time before it's passed around like a joint at a Pink Floyd concert.
r_olsen: If I'm not mistaken you were asking about a catalog image of a 40s era Sears and Roebuck set to solve the SR mystery. I scrubbed what I have (the DVD set) back when we were on this subject in another thread and couldn't find evidence of any such sets. That of course doesn't take into account missing catalogs or even the possibility that they could have been a retail-only set.
Thanks to all contributing to the conversation about the C-series socket OEM. I only own 9/32 sets so I'm living vicariously through you till I find other examples.
I can pass that his way or direct him to this thread.
Rileysan
Well-known member
You know, I have a few extra C-series tools should you ever want to trade a certain Craftsman X-20 wrench!
Brian
JoCoSawdust
Well-known member
Hmmm....that's one I'm going to have to think about!!
Rileysan
Well-known member
This is great stuff and supports the point I've tried to make in the past pertaining to other Craftsman tools. I'd bet the farm that Sears negotiated with regional manufacturers to make their wares - especially large items like tool cabinets and chests - to save money on shipping and handling.
There seems to be no lack of theories as to when (or if) Sears signed or ended contracts with Advertising Metal Display (Chicago) and Pressteel (Los Angeles), but the overlap of tool chests, cabinets, etc only makes sense if both were manufactured at the same time.
Naturally this goes beyond just tools, but since I don't collect furniture or housewares, I'll leave it at that.
Brian
bmwrd0
Well-known member
Admit it Rileysan, you hoard the housewares!
That ironing board collection is getting out. of. hand!
That ironing board collection is getting out. of. hand!
Rileysan
Well-known member
Has Smokeshow been talking again?!? Here I was gunna give him that vintage Armstrong socket set I found a couple weeks ago. I guess it will need to be traded elsewhere!
Smokeshow69
Well-known member
Sir, you have long c knives and therefore collect the house wares [emoji41][emoji23]
Sent from my iPhone using The Garage Journal mobile app
Rileysan
Well-known member
Private Lugnutz
Well-known member
Which would be not only odd but, if I'm not mistaken, unprecedented, for Sears, Roebuck, & Co to be buying a ratchet from one OEM and sockets and handles from another OEM, all marked the same way and sold as a set. This more than anything makes me lean all Snap-on. But, as you said, I wouldn't bet on it either way, either.
Rileysan
Well-known member
Outed by the "whistleblower", I might as well come clean ...
Craftsman long-c steak knife set.
Attachments
Smokeshow69
Well-known member
dkroth
Well-known member
drivesitfar
Well-known member
Riley: VERY COOL!! are they sharp and have you used one yet? or guessing if you said NOS that they are sitting on a shelf just looking damn good.
Private Lugnutz
Well-known member
bmwrd0
Well-known member
I would say with those knives in your collection, that you are a cut above the average!
Private Lugnutz
Well-known member
That's an incisive observation, Beemer.